Anet just killed EoD meta

[Tukaram.8256]

7 hours ago, Kuronca.4138 said:

Im very surprise, they probably spent a week or month planning the event and they decided to kill it after 3 weeks.

If the only reason to do it was to get the egg... it would have died on its own after everyone got an egg.  A poor design is a poor design. Hopefully a lesson learned. 😎

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

If the only reason to do it was to get the egg... it would have died on its own after everyone got an egg.  A poor design is a poor design. Hopefully a lesson learned. 😎

I've completed it four times, which means I got my egg and I'm still doing it. You not liking it doesn't make it bad design. The people running the group I was with DO like it, or at least a lot of them do. I see them same faces at many of the attempts, so they all have their egg and keep on doing it and that was before the new improved reward.  You not liking something doesn't make the design poor. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[Danikat.8537]

Just a thought: do we know for a fact it doesn't give an infusion?

The ones from other metas are pretty rare, it's not uncommon for several successful runs to go by without anyone getting one. Also Anet mentioned a while ago that they had to change them from being attached to exotic trinkets to a direct drop because lots of players salvaged them without knowing what it was, so one of those players might have gotten an infusion or something from Dragon's End and didn't know to say anything about it.

Is there a way to find out what the full drop table is, or do we have to wait until someone gets a rare drop and records it on the Wiki or something?

[Ashantara.8731]

The meta is fun, but they should add some appealing rewards to it, like a new infusion (or old ones, like the Mystic Infusion).

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I've completed it four times, which means I got my egg and I'm still doing it. You not liking it doesn't make it bad design. The people running the group I was with DO like it, or at least a lot of them do. I see them same faces at many of the attempts, so they all have their egg and keep on doing it and that was before the new improved reward.  You not liking something doesn't make the design poor. 

Correct.  It's the lazy copy/pasting of events and forcing us to repeat them for an extended period of time that makes it poor design.  I think you're just enjoying that new expansion smell if you think that's good design and I think we'll see that novelty wear off in short order.

[aspirine.6852]

Easy to fix, put a hard to get infusion in it like in the popular other metas and people will do it..

[Vayne.8563]

39 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Correct.  It's the lazy copy/pasting of events and forcing us to repeat them for an extended period of time that makes it poor design.  I think you're just enjoying that new expansion smell if you think that's good design and I think we'll see that novelty wear off in short order.

See you don't like those events, and you don't find doing them fun so to you it's bad design. But I like events. I like escorts. I like all sorts of events.  And I'm not alone in this. The events are fine for me.  Arguably that's as much fun for me as the rest of the meta.

I don't generally love crazy big boss fights with circles everywhere that go on for a long time.  And the word lazy is so over-used on this forum, it's sad. People use lazy because they don't like something.  It's like quests in every MMO I've ever played. You can only make so many unique different quests. You need so many of them, you eventually have to use the same stuff or similar stuff over and over. It's the nature of the beast.  

It's not lazy to have another escort quest, or another defense event, because if every event had to be unique, the expansion wouldn't come out for another three years.  It's not reasonable to call stand events lazy. But some people don like them.

Edit: I actually think using lazy to describe something you don't like when you simply don't know how tight a schedule is or how hard someone worked on it is well...lazy. 🙂

Edited March 17, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[aspirine.6852]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I've completed it four times, which means I got my egg and I'm still doing it. You not liking it doesn't make it bad design. The people running the group I was with DO like it, or at least a lot of them do. I see them same faces at many of the attempts, so they all have their egg and keep on doing it and that was before the new improved reward.  You not liking something doesn't make the design poor. 

Yeah same, I got the egg last week. Now stuck at the strike but that is another thing. The meta is not that terrible to me, I would love to see some tweaking though. Some parts of it I dont really enjoy at all. The part where you have to fight on the green platforms against enemies that I have seen so many times I could really do without... 😞

But I still do the meta few times a week.

[Labjax.2465]

22 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

See you don't like those events, and you don't find doing them fun so to you it's bad design. But I like events. I like escorts. I like all sorts of events.  And I'm not alone in this. The events are fine for me.  Arguably that's as much fun for me as the rest of the meta.

I don't generally love crazy big boss fights with circles everywhere that go on for a long time.  And the word lazy is so over-used on this forum, it's sad. People use lazy because they don't like something.  It's like quests in every MMO I've ever played. You can only make so many unique different quests. You need so many of them, you eventually have to use the same stuff or similar stuff over and over. It's the nature of the beast.  

It's not lazy to have another escort quest, or another defense event, because if every event had to be unique, the expansion wouldn't come out for another three years.  It's not reasonable to call stand events lazy. But some people don like them.

Edit: I actually think using lazy to describe something you don't like when you simply don't know how tight a schedule is or how hard someone worked on it is well...lazy. 🙂

I don't think expecting people who give feedback on games they play to give feedback on the level of a designer is realistic or reasonable. So yes, people will use terms like lazy sometimes and that's fine, it's already a lot that some people go to the trouble to give feedback at all. I'd say generally if someone is calling content lazy and copy/paste, that probably means the content is too flavorless and they are noticing it in a bad way. Games do indeed repeat themes a lot, it's inevitable and some of it's necessary to maintain the continuity in the feel of the game, but you don't want them seeing it as the inner workings and getting bored.

You can take offense to it or you can take it in stride as a sign that something isn't working.

I also take it to mean that because you do enjoy these, along with the other feedback, what it may imply is that the content is lacking in some flavor, but you are someone who enjoys the themes themselves, so you aren't bothered by it, whereas some people more need the variety of the flavor to feel satisfied. So it may be that for you, the consistency of the themes is more important, for some others the flavor is more important, and both can be done at the same time, but it's easy to mess up the flavor or just run out of time on it. Lot harder to mess up the themes as long as you stick to in house tools and existing design patterns.

I'm having to extrapolate here, some of this may be wrong, but bottom line, you can find value in even vague feedback. And also it's far more valid to criticize a AAA video game corporation as lazy in its practices (not to be confused with criticizing the peon labor itself) than it is to criticize a poster as lazy who is spending their free time giving feedback on a product they paid for.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[AliamRationem.5172]

46 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

See you don't like those events, and you don't find doing them fun so to you it's bad design. But I like events. I like escorts. I like all sorts of events.  And I'm not alone in this. The events are fine for me.  Arguably that's as much fun for me as the rest of the meta.

I don't generally love crazy big boss fights with circles everywhere that go on for a long time.  And the word lazy is so over-used on this forum, it's sad. People use lazy because they don't like something.  It's like quests in every MMO I've ever played. You can only make so many unique different quests. You need so many of them, you eventually have to use the same stuff or similar stuff over and over. It's the nature of the beast.  

It's not lazy to have another escort quest, or another defense event, because if every event had to be unique, the expansion wouldn't come out for another three years.  It's not reasonable to call stand events lazy. But some people don like them.

Edit: I actually think using lazy to describe something you don't like when you simply don't know how tight a schedule is or how hard someone worked on it is well...lazy. 🙂

No, we use lazy because it's literally the same events on repeat.  Compare to HoT, where events are unique chains and only the one-offs are repeated and sparingly (e.g. veteran vinetooth spawns in AB).  Worse, they force you to repeat these before you can begin the meta, which is the unique chain.  This unlike Dragon's Stand, where you gather your squad and get started.

Imagine if Dragon's Stand had you killing vinetooths and a couple of other events on repeat for an hour before you could start.  You would call that good design and not lazy?  If so, I disagree.

Edit: Also, it isn't on me as a player to excuse the tight schedule they (ANet and NCsoft) created for themselves.  It wasn't my choice to decide not to invest in this game's future and announce that there wouldn't be an expansion only to later reverse course, leaving them with insufficient time to properly develop an expansion.  I understand this was a rush job but that doesn't mean I need to be happy with the results.

You want to call Kaineng City a finished map?  You want to call copy/paste events good design?  Hey, you like what you like, I guess.  But I don't think it's unreasonable to judge an expansion by previous efforts which were clearly better quality. 

I know why things are the way they are, but that doesn't make it okay.  I appreciate the hard work of the developers and I sincerely hope that for once they won't just leave this project in its current state and move on to other things.  They should fix this and make it worthy of a GW2 expansion.

Edited March 17, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[Scolix.4879]

Personally i would not mind doing the event but it just takes way too long to do and way too much effort for reward that is almost the same as stuff i can get from other events that take 0,1% of the effort.

Turtle mount is not really an incentive to do the event either because i would have to do strike missions too to get the mount and i really have no interest at all in those.

I like the mount but its just not worth the hassle maybe if i could use it in wvw 

[Gibson.4036]

As an entertainment designer myself, it is my experience that designers are rarely lazy, but often given too little resources and too little time. Copy/paste is typically a survival tactic, not laziness.

[AgentMoore.9453]

Just now, Gibson.4036 said:

it is my experience that designers are rarely lazy, but often given too little resources and too little time.

I think this is it exactly for the whole of EoD, honestly.

Between IBS getting kneecapped and rewritten while simultaneously shoving out a full expansion, I think the devs were rushing through the entire process and using whatever tactics they had to to hit that new deadline. I myself have used the word lazy to describe how it 'seems' when it comes to reused assets/events/mechanics, but that doesn't mean I consider the devs themselves to be lazy. On the contrary, I think the devs largely had lots of enthusiasm and grand plans both for IBS and for Cantha but deadlines and corporate constraints made this virtually impossible for them to deliver. As a result, the expansion is riddled with underdeveloped, first-pass mechanics, typos, and inconsistent UI elements.

EoD was rushed and would have been better with more development time and cohesion between its elements.

[Nezekan.2671]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

See you don't like those events, and you don't find doing them fun so to you it's bad design. But I like events. I like escorts. I like all sorts of events.  And I'm not alone in this. The events are fine for me.  Arguably that's as much fun for me as the rest of the meta.

I don't generally love crazy big boss fights with circles everywhere that go on for a long time.  And the word lazy is so over-used on this forum, it's sad. People use lazy because they don't like something.  It's like quests in every MMO I've ever played. You can only make so many unique different quests. You need so many of them, you eventually have to use the same stuff or similar stuff over and over. It's the nature of the beast.  

It's not lazy to have another escort quest, or another defense event, because if every event had to be unique, the expansion wouldn't come out for another three years.  It's not reasonable to call stand events lazy. But some people don like them.

Edit: I actually think using lazy to describe something you don't like when you simply don't know how tight a schedule is or how hard someone worked on it is well...lazy. 🙂

It's not about another escort quest. It's about them being copy pastes of what we had previously, and to add insult to injury, you have to do the same events several times. Like the actual exact same events, but two or three times. After the meta itself starts, it's fine. Dragon's stand has 3 lanes and each lane has different sets of events. North in particular is really fun, but other lanes are good too and it definitely adds more replayability. Same goes for Auric Basin and Tangled Depths. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

LoL Okay, fine, guys.  It isn't "laziness".  It's not enough time and resources to produce a quality product.  Either way the result is the same: This sucks!  So, the next question is what do we do about it?  Do we move on and act like this is fine or do we take the time to fix what didn't come out as intended?  What do you think the answer is?

[AgentMoore.9453]

3 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Do we move on and act like this is fine or do we take the time to fix what didn't come out as intended?  What do you think the answer is?

Take the time to fix it, definitely. There are a number of threads asking for roadmaps and QoL updates in our near future, and I think both of those are great for the health and longevity of the game. The hows and whys of EoD ending up the way it ended up are worth understanding (the devs are people after all), but if proper development couldn't get done during the making of EoD, it should definitely get done afterward until things are on par with the rest of the game.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Take the time to fix it, definitely. There are a number of threads asking for roadmaps and QoL updates in our near future, and I think both of those are great for the health and longevity of the game. The hows and whys of EoD ending up the way it ended up are worth understanding (the devs are people after all), but if proper development couldn't get done during the making of EoD, it should definitely get done afterward until things are on par with the rest of the game.

I agree.  There is so much obviously unfinished in this expansion.  I understand why they couldn't bump out the date with the hype rapidly deflating and all, but now's the time to take the time they couldn't before and make this the expansion it should have been.

[Gorem.8104]

Its so weird to me, ya know, to enjoy the fact that a meta died. I played GW2 at launch, the meta's were all thrilling and fun down in Orr. We were much weaker but it was fun. I'm not really sure why they thought a raid boss with worse then raid boss mechanics (you should not be balancing around FIFTY PEOPLE having the EMP from a random table from Drizzlewood, "just die" when pooled is not a good mechanic not even to mention needing to pick it back up multiple times from said table) was figured to be a good "ending". I can spend 10 mins in most other zones and get more gold for my time and be more rewarded and have more fun, then 2 hours.... TWO hours in DE. Losing rewards nothing. 2 hours and nothing. Why? No other zone in the game does this. if you lose Dragonstand you still have looted the vines. Even AB on a loss still gives some chests. 

 

So its a good thing that 7 classes can skip this meta. Soon I wonder if you see 50man's of just the 2 forced to do this meta for their E-spec item. 

[Xerxez.7361]

9 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Its so weird to me, ya know, to enjoy the fact that a meta died. I played GW2 at launch, the meta's were all thrilling and fun down in Orr. We were much weaker but it was fun. I'm not really sure why they thought a raid boss with worse then raid boss mechanics (you should not be balancing around FIFTY PEOPLE having the EMP from a random table from Drizzlewood, "just die" when pooled is not a good mechanic not even to mention needing to pick it back up multiple times from said table) was figured to be a good "ending". I can spend 10 mins in most other zones and get more gold for my time and be more rewarded and have more fun, then 2 hours.... TWO hours in DE. Losing rewards nothing. 2 hours and nothing. Why? No other zone in the game does this. if you lose Dragonstand you still have looted the vines. Even AB on a loss still gives some chests. 

 

So its a good thing that 7 classes can skip this meta. Soon I wonder if you see 50man's of just the 2 forced to do this meta for their E-spec item. 

 

The break bar doesn't require EMP at all its just the easiest way to convince other players to use CC. I've been in 2 groups that didn't use EMP at all and had no trouble with the break bar albeit very organized group.

[Cuks.8241]

I like the meta. I got what it offers but I will do it more because its fun if you do it with organised group. Unfortuneatly it's a big time investment and it really doesnt need to be, it wouldnt take anything from the meta if you shaved some stuff off.

How to fix it and not just making it a snoozefest:

Forget abour preparation phase. Dislocate it from the meta. Map awarness, make it no impact. Just give 10 stacks of buffs to all when the escorts start. Or give buffs during the escorts and the following events. You just made meta 1 hour and much more bearable.

Remove the 5 quell the corruption events after the escorts. Those are the same as the prep events, we all did it noumerous times already and are bored of them. Really dont need more of the same. You can spawn 2 additional champs on each lane during the escorts for champ bags to equalize loot. You just shaved additional 5-10 mins from the meta, good.

Do something for visual clarity for the last phase of Soo Won fight. Either remove most of trash mobs or reduce the number of whirlpools or both. This wont really impact the meta by much but at least people will be able to see whats going on. Right now there is so much on the screen my fps just plummet and just stops rendering stuff. Maybe thats just my comp but I think its an issue for many because I see players that know how to play well ending up walking into bad stuff. You could reduce the amount of trash mobs overall. They arent really a factor anyway and just make a visual mess.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I like the meta. I got what it offers but I will do it more because its fun if you do it with organised group. Unfortuneatly it's a big time investment and it really doesnt need to be, it wouldnt take anything from the meta if you shaved some stuff off.

How to fix it and not just making it a snoozefest:

Forget abour preparation phase. Dislocate it from the meta. Map awarness, make it no impact. Just give 10 stacks of buffs to all when the escorts start. Or give buffs during the escorts and the following events. You just made meta 1 hour and much more bearable.

Remove the 5 quell the corruption events after the escorts. Those are the same as the prep events, we all did it noumerous times already and are bored of them. Really dont need more of the same. You can spawn 2 additional champs on each lane during the escorts for champ bags to equalize loot. You just shaved additional 5-10 mins from the meta, good.

Do something for visual clarity for the last phase of Soo Won fight. Either remove most of trash mobs or reduce the number of whirlpools or both. This wont really impact the meta by much but at least people will be able to see whats going on. Right now there is so much on the screen my fps just plummet and just stops rendering stuff. Maybe thats just my comp but I think its an issue for many because I see players that know how to play well ending up walking into bad stuff. You could reduce the amount of trash mobs overall. They arent really a factor anyway and just make a visual mess.

 

 

Remove visual noise?  What game do you think you're playing here, buddy?  LoL

It sorta reminds me of 80s video games.  Remember the Sierra games, where the challenge was mostly built into the kitten graphics and pre-Point-n-Click interface?  Get stick.  Get wand.  Get line of pixels.  Get the kittening thing that's right in front of me but I can't tell what it is for the love of God!

Except instead of being unable to tell what objects are in order to interact with them I just plain can't see anything because the telegraphs are buried under all the blinding lights, 50 gigantic glowing green mech bots, and and assorted other visual noise.  If this were WoW we could just mod our own indicators so we can actually see the things we're supposed to.  But apparently it's part of the "challenge".

Just one more reason this game does solo play well while group play feels like kitten.  Action combat is a lot more satisfying when you can tell what's going on.

[Cuks.8241]

17 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Remove visual noise?  What game do you think you're playing here, buddy?  LoL

It sorta reminds me of 80s video games.  Remember the Sierra games, where the challenge was mostly built into the kitten graphics and pre-Point-n-Click interface?  Get stick.  Get wand.  Get line of pixels.  Get the kittening thing that's right in front of me but I can't tell what it is for the love of God!

Except instead of being unable to tell what objects are in order to interact with them I just plain can't see anything because the telegraphs are buried under all the blinding lights, 50 gigantic glowing green mech bots, and and assorted other visual noise.  If this were WoW we could just mod our own indicators so we can actually see the things we're supposed to.  But apparently it's part of the "challenge".

Just one more reason this game does solo play well while group play feels like kitten.  Action combat is a lot more satisfying when you can tell what's going on.

Monkey Island ❤️🙈 Not Sierra though.

Just give us a freaking option to remove other players effects, minis and other kitten already. Im sure they can do it. At least in specific instances if they are so afraid of revenue loss which I think is unfounded.

Even at 10 man its already cluster kitten.

If they cant do that at least give us a decent UI. I just want to move and enlarge the important stuff away form the useless info. And not have them all over the screen. Mai Trin stike. I dont know if its just my eyes or not but half of the time I cant say if its me that it's about to spawn the lightning field or someone else. And this can wipe the whole group. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Monkey Island ❤️🙈 Not Sierra though.

Just give us a freaking option to remove other players effects, minis and other kitten already. Im sure they can do it. At least in specific instances if they are so afraid of revenue loss which I think is unfounded.

Even at 10 man its already cluster kitten.

If they cant do that at least give us a decent UI. I just want to move and enlarge the important stuff away form the useless info. And not have them all over the screen. Mai Trin stike. I dont know if its just my eyes or not but half of the time I cant say if its me that it's about to spawn the lightning field or someone else. And this can wipe the whole group. 

LoL!

I just did my Kaineng strike for the turtle collection.  Joined a pickup group in LFG and half the group were playing mechanist!  What telegraphs?  All I see is giant green robot butt!

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

No, we use lazy because it's literally the same events on repeat.  Compare to HoT, where events are unique chains and only the one-offs are repeated and sparingly (e.g. veteran vinetooth spawns in AB).  Worse, they force you to repeat these before you can begin the meta, which is the unique chain.  This unlike Dragon's Stand, where you gather your squad and get started.

Imagine if Dragon's Stand had you killing vinetooths and a couple of other events on repeat for an hour before you could start.  You would call that good design and not lazy?  If so, I disagree.

Edit: Also, it isn't on me as a player to excuse the tight schedule they (ANet and NCsoft) created for themselves.  It wasn't my choice to decide not to invest in this game's future and announce that there wouldn't be an expansion only to later reverse course, leaving them with insufficient time to properly develop an expansion.  I understand this was a rush job but that doesn't mean I need to be happy with the results.

You want to call Kaineng City a finished map?  You want to call copy/paste events good design?  Hey, you like what you like, I guess.  But I don't think it's unreasonable to judge an expansion by previous efforts which were clearly better quality. 

I know why things are the way they are, but that doesn't make it okay.  I appreciate the hard work of the developers and I sincerely hope that for once they won't just leave this project in its current state and move on to other things.  They should fix this and make it worthy of a GW2 expansion.

It makes it okay, because there are no alternatives. You have X amount of time to work on something. You have y amount of things to do in that time. There's never been a good answer to "quests" in MMOs, which is why themepark MMOs all have so many generic quests.  There'll be longer more interested quest lines that lead to meta bosses and there will be shorter more repetitive questlines. That's the industry When I played FFXIV (admittedly not for a very long time) every quest I did and some of the fates were just copy and paste from pretty much every MMO I've ever played. Calling it lazy IS lazy.  Because lazy implies people being lethargic, not caring, not wanting to do more. We don't know that it's lazy. What we do know is that making dozens and dozens and dozens of unique individual quests during making the rest of an expansion would be prohibitively expensive. That's why things are the way they are.  You may not like it, but it's reality.

[Vayne.8563]

5 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

It's not about another escort quest. It's about them being copy pastes of what we had previously, and to add insult to injury, you have to do the same events several times. Like the actual exact same events, but two or three times. After the meta itself starts, it's fine. Dragon's stand has 3 lanes and each lane has different sets of events. North in particular is really fun, but other lanes are good too and it definitely adds more replayability. Same goes for Auric Basin and Tangled Depths. 

Yes, Dragon Stand has different events in each lane. One of them is gathering a bunch of stuff and handing it in. Another one is gathering a bunch of stuff and handing it in. And another one is gathering a bunch of stuff and handing it in.  Oh and there are escorts mixed in there.  Sure there's an event to draw beetles into a thing you stamp on.  But the bulk of the questions are escort, defense or collections, even in Dragon Stand.