Do you think Anet has handled their dragons/other setup well?

[Slowpokeking.8720]

 I will say Zhaitan's plot was quite good, most of the Pact's characters were a bit bland, but it showed how menacing the Risen were, the book Sea of Sorrow was written well. Zhaitan's plot was great OTHER than the final fight was a bit meh.

 

Mordremoth has good setup and the Mordrem showed a lot of threat, they also differ from the Risen as well. But Mordremoth itself, as a villain was very boring and generic, as a plant dragon it lacks of any unique goals. A big part of the HOT plot was also unrelated to it, but switched to Aurene. Sure you need setup for the future plot, but you need to tell the current story first. Caithe and Faolin felt wasted as well. Killing Eir was also a bad mistake. Even if they wanted to do it, they should have saved it till Jormag.

 

S3/PoF came to the big letdown, a bunch of mess and WTH moments, Balthazar turned evil? Dragons turned from all powerful to punchbags that almost got killed easily? We got to protect them? What are these things. Balthazar was a menacing villain but it makes little sense, it also dealt a lot of damage to the Dragon plot.

 

Joko was a cool character but I don't think he and his Awakened showed the menace of Elona's ruler.  The Risen were far more threatening than them. The "he conquered Elona" didn't feel necessary for the plot. It could have been "Joko rebuilt his kingdom in the desolation and research on the plague".

 

Kralkatorrik's plot was too short so its minions wasn't shown well, it should have ended in part V where we finally got the epic battle, then add epilogue to let us know its pain.

 

Jormag/Primordus was handled very badly. Jormag got such rich setup in vanilla and it got thrown away. The plot simply ended very badly. Even EotN was much better than the actual Primordus plot.

 

EoD was ok to me, better than PoF but it lacks the intensity. None of the villains feel very threatening, especially compare to Shiro. I still prefer to see DSD come out as a big scary hidden horror, and give the "mother" thing to Mordremoth.

 

Overall we can easily see the writers change and the ideas change. Some of the plot twists weren't handled too well.  Some villains were a bit disappointing compare to how they were introduced in the background materials. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

S3/PoF came to the big letdown, a bunch of mess and WTH moments, Balthazar turned evil? Dragons turned from all powerful to punchbags that almost got killed easily? We got to protect them? What are these things. Balthazar was a menacing villain but it makes little sense, it also dealt a lot of damage to the Dragon plot.

When were dragons "almost killed easily" in LWS3 or PoF? In LWS3 Balthaazar had to go through an insane multi level plan, that required pretending to be Lazarus, tricking the White Mantle to be his army, absorbing the power of a Bloodstone, and having to steal a weapon made by the Asura(which itself was only able to be made thanks to the lost secrets of Rata Novus, and irreplaceable parts no one really understood from Omadd's Machine), to be able to confront Primordus. And in PoF he had to work with Joko, steel the secrets of the Exalted to build an army of Forged, and had to capture Vlast/Aurene, on top of everything he did in LWS3, in order to be able to even face Kralkatorrik. That's the exact opposite of going down easy. That's about the same level of plan we had to use to take down the dragons ourselves.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Joko was a cool character but I don't think he and his Awakened showed the menace of Elona's ruler.  The Risen were far more threatening than them. The "he conquered Elona" didn't feel necessary for the plot. It could have been "Joko rebuilt his kingdom in the desolation and research on the plague".

Joko taking over Elona was a narrative device Anet used, along with Cantha going isolationist, to put humanity at the same level as the other races at the start of GW2. Humanity was too large/powerful, having conquered pretty much the entire known world, and having them start GW2 off like that puts them at way too much of a narrative advantage compared to the other races. They needed to bring humanity down a few pegs to bring other races up a few. Joko himself was an incompetent narcissist back in GW1. Makes sense his empire wasn't all that impressive in GW2.

And if he hadn't taken over Elona the forces of Vabbi, Istan, and Kourna, would have just annihilated him in about all of 5 seconds the moment he learned he was even thinking of trying to find the Scarab Plague. It would be a one episode plot at that rate. Joko being a threat at all really only works if Elona is under his control. Hes too weak otherwise.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Kralkatorrik's plot was too short so its minions wasn't shown well, it should have ended in part V where we finally got the epic battle, then add epilogue to let us know its pain.

Kralkatorrik got the same amount of narrative the other dragons got. Each dragon got three maps + a dragon fight.

• Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore, + Arah story mode
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, + Dragon's Stand
• Kralkatorrik had Domain of Vabbi, Jahai Bluffs, and Thunderhead Peaks + Dragonfall
• Jormag had Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood Coast + Dragonstorm
• Primordus had Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and the first two parts of Champions + Dragonstorm
• Soo-Won had Saitung Province, New Kaineng City, and Echovald Wild + Dragon's End

Kralk arguably had more content then the other elder Dragons due to how much PoF focused on him as well, what with all the Glint/Vlast/Dragonsblood Spear, stuff that played such a consistent role in PoF.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Jormag/Primordus was handled very badly. Jormag got such rich setup in vanilla and it got thrown away. The plot simply ended very badly. Even EotN was much better than the actual Primordus plot.

How was Jormag's setup thrown away? Jormag pretty much master planned its way to near victory. Manipulating Bangar into giving it an army, while also simultaneously almost destroying the Charr who made up the bulk of military forces against the Dragons. It got Almorra killed, robbing the Pact of one of its best military minds. It caused The Commander's comrades to doubt each other, and the Commander, crippling the effectiveness of Dragon's Watch for a time. It did what no other dragon could and used the Asura's hatred of Primordus to cause them to ally with it, giving it access to even greater power/information which it used to make itself even more powerful by finding a way to freeze people to sap their energy as its own. It also managed to launch a Tyria wide invasion alongside Primordus' invasion, attacking the gates of Lion's Arch, Divinity's Reach, The Dominion of Winds, the Flame Citadel, among others. And it went into Dragonstorm knowing it could win against Primordus, and almost did so, only failing because of an 11th hour, last resort, plan involving Aurene no one was sure was going to work.

And the plot ended exactly as we knew it was going to from LWS3. The only thing that can kill either dragon is each other, so we had to get them to duke it out directly now that Taimi's Machine was gone.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[dusanyu.4057]

Zaitan: Fun buildup and story the books added much end fight was disappointing 

 

Mordramoth: stated with the season that was Zurg wars 2 went to a verry slow Season 2 but at leat it mad mordy scary

 

Season 3 PoF Season 4  (Kralkaroric) by far this was the hayday of Guildwars 2  regular fun updates that pushed the engine in new ways this period asnd the Kral fight were amazing as far as balthazar rilly did not care either way but hey thanks to EoD we now have "ooga booga" Magic to blame

 

Icebrood and EoD:  the Pandemic era aka Guild wars wipes it's but with its world building

 

i am going to be honest i stopped caring about Icebrood as soon as we got "Silver wastes 2.0" Aka Drizzewood this was a complete and utter backtrack from the awesome of season 4 but i understand pandemic happened things got rough

 

but i need to take fire at the way Primortis was handles as both a GW1 and now person who plays Asura Characters. Primortus was the Dragon we got a taste of in Eye of the north he is the one Guild wars 1 players Daydreamed of seeing and fighting from that time forward and what did we get .... Primortus would have also have allowed us to see the Underground cities of the asura things we have been hearing about once again sense eye of the north in 2007!

 

Than we get the mess that is EoD and the new writers who "care more about characters than the past world building" well i hate to tell you this your New Characters are as likable as a Sadistic orthodontist and don't get me going on this one human is smarter than all of the Asura. 

 

Look closer she is not that darn smart echovald is a dump and the Jade sea is close to mined out completely considering that Jade tech is a relatively new thing judgeing by the age of Joonie -Su  but ooh they have moving pictures. Pfft

 

And than theres Void this scary magic that drives people crazy that was pulled out of the air suddenly (and i don't believe it was planed long term its conveniently using a generic spooky sounding word) now wou can blame everything on it because it was explained so well 

 

Why did abbadon go crazy? void

Balthazar? Void

every other baddie in guild wars? Void

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

When were dragons "almost killed easily" in LWS3 or PoF? In LWS3 Balthaazar had to go through an insane multi level plan, that required pretending to be Lazarus, tricking the White Mantle to be his army, absorbing the power of a Bloodstone, and having to steal a weapon made by the Asura(which itself was only able to be made thanks to the lost secrets of Rata Novus, and irreplaceable parts no one really understood from Omadd's Machine), to be able to confront Primordus. And in PoF he had to work with Joko, steel the secrets of the Exalted to build an army of Forged, and had to capture Vlast/Aurene, on top of everything he did in LWS3, in order to be able to even face Kralkatorrik. That's the exact opposite of going down easy. That's about the same level of plan we had to use to take down the dragons ourselves.

 

One machine could kill both dragons together, their army and power made no use, that's pretty lol.

Vlast plus some gears could shoot down Kralkatorrik, that's also a big meh.

 

 

Quote

Kralkatorrik got the same amount of narrative the other dragons got. Each dragon got three maps + a dragon fight.

• Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore, + Arah story mode
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, + Dragon's Stand
• Kralkatorrik had Domain of Vabbi, Jahai Bluffs, and Thunderhead Peaks + Dragonfall
• Jormag had Bitterfrost Frontier, Bjora Marches, and Drizzlewood Coast + Dragonstorm
• Primordus had Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and the first two parts of Champions + Dragonstorm
• Soo-Won had Saitung Province, New Kaineng City, and Echovald Wild + Dragon's End

Kralk arguably had more content then the other elder Dragons due to how much PoF focused on him as well, what with all the Glint/Vlast/Dragonsblood Spear, stuff that played such a consistent role in PoF.

 

No, Zhaitan got a whole book and a mega chain of the story.

Mordremoth got LWS2 and HoT story

Jormag got Norn maps and personal stories. In vanilla it got more buildup than any other dragons beside Zhaitan.

Primordus got the entire EotN as its buildup.

 

Compare to them, Kralkatorrik's plot was rushed.

 

Quote

How was Jormag's setup thrown away? Jormag pretty much master planned its way to near victory. Manipulating Bangar into giving it an army, while also simultaneously almost destroying the Charr who made up the bulk of military forces against the Dragons. It got Almorra killed, robbing the Pact of one of its best military minds. It caused The Commander's comrades to doubt each other, and the Commander, crippling the effectiveness of Dragon's Watch for a time. It did what no other dragon could and used the Asura's hatred of Primordus to cause them to ally with it, giving it access to even greater power/information which it used to make itself even more powerful by finding a way to freeze people to sap their energy as its own. It also managed to launch a Tyria wide invasion alongside Primordus' invasion, attacking the gates of Lion's Arch, Divinity's Reach, The Dominion of Winds, the Flame Citadel, among others. And it went into Dragonstorm knowing it could win against Primordus, and almost did so, only failing because of an 11th hour, last resort, plan involving Aurene no one was sure was going to work.

Everything in vanilla got thrown aside. Jormag's plot started fine but ended up too quickly.

 

Primordus got nearly 0 plot, it was very rushed and a lot weaker than EotN.

 

 

Quote

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

59 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

One machine could kill both dragons together, their army and power made no use, that's pretty lol.

Vlast plus some gears could shoot down Kralkatorrik, that's also a big meh.

This is such a gross oversimplification of what actually happened its impossible to take seriously. Might as well say "lol Soo-Won died to people smacking her with swords!"

59 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No, Zhaitan got a whole book and a mega chain of the story.

Mordremoth got LWS2 and HoT story

Jormag got Norn maps and personal stories. In vanilla it got more buildup than any other dragons beside Zhaitan.

Primordus got the entire EotN as its buildup.

Compare to them, Kralkatorrik's plot was rushed.

Kralk got a huge focus in Edge of Destiny(And was the reason they broke up in the first place), all the Dragonbrand content back in core, several story arcs in core revolve around the Branded, a HUGE portion of PoF(PoF was about as much about Kralk as it was Balthazar), some parts of early LWS4, and the entire back half of LWS4. He got pretty much the same as every other dragon.

59 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Everything in vanilla got thrown aside. Jormag's plot started fine but ended up too quickly.

What in vanilla got thrown aside? You keep saying this but don't name any examples. Jormag in IBS is doing the same things we saw it do back in core. And how did it end too quickly? By the end of Jormag Rising we had

• Returned to the old Norn lands, and visited many of their old settlements.
• Fought and killed the Fraenir, the leader of the Sons of Svanir. As well as just wipe the floor with a lot of the Svanir.
• Helped Jhavi defeat Drakkar, earning her and her family some measure of vengeance for what it did to them back in EoTN.
• We visited the place Asgeir fought Frostfang, and took Jormag's tooth, and learned the secret history behind that encounter.
• The Spirits of the Wild played a huge part throughout the story. Raven in EP1, Wolf in EP2, Ox, Eagle and Wolverine, in EP2 and 4.
• We fought Jormag's armies in Drizzlewood, and crushed them, as well as stopped its plans to corrupted the major Spirits of the wild to boost its power even further.

By the time Jormag Rising ends we had pretty much done every major thing in regards to Jormag. Had the whole "Primordus and Jormag are twins, and only they can kill each other" thing didn't exist the next chapter would have been the "Icestorm" map meta were we take the final fight to Jormag and kill it. Because that is where we were in the story. And due to the twin dragons thing Jormag got to last far longer then it otherwise would have logically, and we saw it not only manipulate the Asura, but also launch a huge invasion across Tyria. Its the exact opposite of rushed, it was actually drawn out longer then it otherwise would have.

59 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Primordus got nearly 0 plot, it was very rushed and a lot weaker than EotN.

EoTN ultimately had little to do with Primordus himself, and more to do with us going around and solving racial issues so we could get a bunch of people to fight the Great Destroyer. We already did that in GW2 with the formation of the Pact, which is why all the post core stories are shorter then core was. You don't need to keep redoing the same story you already did. And besides that, by the time we defeat Primordus we had done pretty much all of the Primordus related plots.

For the Asura we

• Went underground(in Tangled Depths), and found a lost Asuran city(Rata Novus)
• Learned more about the Asura who stayed underground to keep fighting Primordus while the rest of their kind fled to the Surface(the Rata Novans)
• Found some ancient tech/research/magic the developed to kill Primordus(the Dragon Lab at Rata Nvous) and not only used it to find Primordus' weakness(Taimi's Dragon Lab/Ley Line research in LWS3), but also used what we gained there to defeat the dragon(the aborted attempt in LWS3 with Taimi's Machine, and then later in IBS where we do it directly with both dragons)
• Stopped the inquest from taking the secrets of the Rata Novans(Rata Arcanum in Draconis Mons)
• Saw in Asurans dealing with Primordus in the present day, not only at Ember Bay, but also during Champions with their rather dubious alliance with Jormag.

Same thing with the Dwarves. By the time of Primordus' defeat we

• Visited all the old Dwarven lands, and explored their now ruined citadels now infested with monsters(including Destroyers)
• Met the last living Dwarf(Ogden), and made the miraculous discovery of another living Dwarf(Rhoban), as well as got to work with the ghost of the dwarf who made the Dragonsblood Spear.
• Learned what happened to the Stone Summit, and wiped out what little remained of them(Forging Steel)
• Found the Legacy of the Dwarves(the Dragonsblood weapon forge), and used it to kill a dragon, and used Dwarven tech to stop Primordus from causing massive destruction(the volcanic devices in Ember Bay)

This on top of all the Destroyer content in the maps and story back in core, Primordus's minions rising up in Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons, to try to cause eruptions to empower themselves and cause massive ecological damage, Primordus' attack on Aurene at Tarir, and Primordus' large scale invasion of Tyria, which included attacks on Rata Sum/Metrica, Brisban, the gates of Lions Arch, the Ascalon Settlement, Ebonahwke, and the Flame Citadel(As well as mentions of his invasion of the Centaur Homelands).

So yeah... what exactl about Primordus' plot did we not do again? And if there isn't anything, how did he have zero plot?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Slowpokeking.8720]

47 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is such a gross oversimplification of what actually happened its impossible to take seriously. Might as well say "lol Soo-Won died to people smacking her with swords!"

 

That is simply what happened. Balthazar's real god power was taken, he was simply using a machine to kill the two, and later didn't spend too much effort to kill Kralkatorrik.

 

Quote

Kralk got a huge focus in Edge of Destiny(And was the reason they broke up in the first place), all the Dragonbrand content back in core, several story arcs in core revolve around the Branded, a HUGE portion of PoF(PoF was about as much about Kralk as it was Balthazar), some parts of early LWS4, and the entire back half of LWS4. He got pretty much the same as every other dragon.

 

No,  a big chunk of  EoD was about other dragons. Only the later part was about Kralkatorrik. Sea of Sorrows had the entire story on Zhaitan, along with a bit on EoD as well.  EoD also got a lot to do with Jormag's Dragonspawn since it's what caused EoD to form together. Did you even read the book?

 

PoF was mostly about Balthazar, with Joko taking a bit of plot. The Branded were focused much less compare to the other two. We can take out the chapters to see how much of it was focused on Branded.

 

 

Quote

What in vanilla got thrown aside? You keep saying this but don't name any exampleJormag in IBS is doing the same things we saw it do back in core. And how did it end too quickly? By the end of Jormag Rising we had

• Returned to the old Norn lands, and visited many of their old settlements.

Did you even play the core game? The entire focus on Jormag in the Norn story was pushed aside, the Norn got very tiny to do with Jormag. The Jotun got kicked aside. Kodan got little to do as well.

 

Nor was the Quggan clan got anything to do with Jormag.

 

Quote

• Fought and killed the Fraenir, the leader of the Sons of Svanir. As well as just wipe the floor with a lot of the Svanir.
• Helped Jhavi defeat Drakkar, earning her and her family some measure of vengeance for what it did to them back in EoTN.
• We visited the place Asgeir fought Frostfang, and took Jormag's tooth, and learned the secret history behind that encounter.

 

Fraenir was the only figure we got, the SoS was supposed to play a huge part in the story, instead we got very little.

 

Jhavi also got less and less plot, she was the only Norn main character in the JORMAG story.

 

 

 

Quote

• The Spirits of the Wild played a huge part throughout the story. Raven in EP1, Wolf in EP2, Ox, Eagle and Wolverine, in EP2 and 4.
• We fought Jormag's armies in Drizzlewood, and crushed them, as well as stopped its plans to corrupted the major Spirits of the wild to boost its power even further.

 

The ice charr, not the main army of Jormag Icebrood. We didn't even get to see enough SoS members.

 

Quote

By the time Jormag Rising ends we had pretty much done every major thing in regards to Jormag. Had the whole "Primordus and Jormag are twins, and only they can kill each other" thing didn't exist the next chapter would have been the "Icestorm" map meta were we take the final fight to Jormag and kill it. Because that is where we were in the story. And due to the twin dragons thing Jormag got to last far longer then it otherwise would have logically, and we saw it not only manipulate the Asura, but also launch a huge invasion across Tyria. Its the exact opposite of rushed, it was actually drawn out longer then it otherwise would have.

And then it switched very quickly to fight Jormag's minions and had little plot, then it went to the final meta. The story simply ended very rushed.

 

 

 

Quote

EoTN ultimately had little to do with Primordus himself, and more to do with us going around and solving racial issues so we could get a bunch of people to fight the Great Destroyer. We already did that in GW2 with the formation of the Pact, which is why all the post core stories are shorter then core was. You don't need to keep redoing the same story you already did. And besides that, by the time we defeat Primordus we had done pretty much all of the Primordus related plots.

 

EoTN is all about Primordus' champion waking up, we got the unify the clans and had a massive fight with the invading destroyers,  Icebrood saga didn't have such length and focus on the dragon itself..

 

 

 

Quote

• Learned more about the Asura who stayed underground to keep fighting Primordus while the rest of their kind fled to the Surface(the Rata Novans)
• Found some ancient tech/research/magic the developed to kill Primordus(the Dragon Lab at Rata Nvous) and not only used it to find Primordus' weakness(Taimi's Dragon Lab/Ley Line research in LWS3), but also used what we gained there to defeat the dragon(the aborted attempt in LWS3 with Taimi's Machine, and then later in IBS where we do it directly with both dragons)

You mean we found a ruin and only mentioned like a few lines of Primordus? That's pathetic.

 

 

Quote

• Stopped the inquest from taking the secrets of the Rata Novans(Rata Arcanum in Draconis Mons)
• Saw in Asurans dealing with Primordus in the present day, not only at Ember Bay, but also during Champions with their rather dubious alliance with Jormag.

Same thing with the Dwarves. By the time of Primordus' defeat we

• Visited all the old Dwarven lands, and explored their now ruined citadels now infested with monsters(including Destroyers)
• Met the last living Dwarf(Ogden), and made the miraculous discovery of another living Dwarf(Rhoban), as well as got to work with the ghost of the dwarf who made the Dragonsblood Spear.
• Learned what happened to the Stone Summit, and wiped out what little remained of them(Forging Steel)
• Found the Legacy of the Dwarves(the Dragonsblood weapon forge), and used it to kill a dragon, and used Dwarven tech to stop Primordus from causing massive destruction(the volcanic devices in Ember Bay)

This on top of all the Destroyer content in the maps and story back in core, Primordus's minions rising up in Ember Bay, and Draconis Mons, to try to cause eruptions to empower themselves and cause massive ecological damage, Primordus' attack on Aurene at Tarir, and Primordus' large scale invasion of Tyria, which included attacks on Rata Sum/Metrica, Brisban, the gates of Lions Arch, the Ascalon Settlement, Ebonahwke, and the Flame Citadel(As well as mentions of his invasion of the Centaur Homelands).

So yeah... what exactl about Primordus' plot did we not do again? And if there isn't anything, how did he have zero plot?

Now you are using double standards .

 

You said EotN was about "more to do with us going around and solving racial issues so we could get a bunch of people to fight the Great Destroyer",  and you are using we went to see dwarves which got very little to do with Primordus(less than EotN) to fill your hole? Nice try.

 

Other than these non related stuff, all you can pick is one episode of LS3 and the final meta, it showed how weak the plot is.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Farohna.6247]

Praise Joko

[voltaicbore.8012]

While I generally agree with @Sajuuk Khar.1509that there has been more thorough narrative treatment of each dragon than your initial post suggests, I do agree with you @Slowpokeking.8720that in-game it certainly feels like the dragons after Zhaitan could have been explored a bit more. Overall I chalk that up to the limitation that ANet has with the Elder Dragon storyline in general - needing to present them each as gigantic world-ending threats.

That tone wears thin over the years, and their need to spice up things around that central limitation leads to the sort of story-thinning we arguably experienced. Zhaitan was a giant zombie-creating disaster, we didn't really need "accessory" villains to support that story. Mordremoth arguably didn't need a side villain either, but we got S1 and Scarlet/Aetherblades/Molten Alliance to play that role... because they didn't want to just do a plant-zombie-only plot?

IMO it starts getting a little out of hand with Kralk. His main "accessory" villain, Balthazar, actually is working against him. So we have to deal with Balth first, then kill Kralk ourselves afterwards. Along the way we also deal with Joko and the scarab plague, which arguably fits because Joko's (mis)management of Elona is what gave Balth the opportunity to cause as much havoc there as he did. On top of that we get a sort of purely narrative adversary well - the whole idea that just murdering dragons might not actually be safe at all. Overall that era of the game (not accounting for how much IRL time it covers, I'm not going to bother figuring that out) does feel a bit more crowded than the previous two dragons. Note that as "Lazarus," Balthazar actually involved himself a bit to the tail end of the Mordremoth story as well, appearing in the egg chamber and whatnot.

By the time we get to Jormag and Primordus, we have the conclusion of the Jora storyline through Jhavi (involving the Sons of Svanir in a big way), an entire charr civil war (which featured the Fraenir, then Bangar, then Ryland as the primary Jormag-aligned accessory villains), Braham becoming another quasi-accessory-villain thanks to becoming Primordus' champion, Rytlock/Crecia's little family drama, the whole baggage from PoF about how killing dragons might not work out, and in general meeting so many Spirits of the Wild. Yes, there is a lot going on here, and a lot of narrative content to process if you're into that sort of thing. But as a result I agree that the focus on the Dragons becomes a bit diluted.

However, this gradual dilution of Elder Dragons as the be-all-end-all threat probably worked out for the best in the end. It allows for a less jarring transition away from the Dragon storyline. Imagine if, like Zhaitan, everyone all over the world looked like tiny meaningless threats for each dragon, and each of these tiny threats was very easily convinced to beat each Dragon through the silly power-of-friendship theme so many games lean on (GW2 being a particularly egregious example). Once we kill the last one, the next non-Dragon threat would have a very steep hill to climb to stack up to the decade-long run of massive dragon threats dwarfing everything else completely.

I'm not sure that ANet exactly planned it to work out this way, but gradually we see over the years smaller, non-dragon players becoming very attention-worthy in their own way. Scarlet didn't have to end the world to get our attention - just leveling LA was a big shock to the system, and presented her as something to look out for even if she wasn't raising massive armies of undead to swarm entire civilizations. Joko is not presented as a being on the scale of a Dragon or one of the Six, but he displays an awareness of the condition of the world and a level of cunning that eventually gives him the ability to seriously damage multiple societies. His tactics? Cunning, deception, social control, accessing information generated by research outside his borders through Awakening some Inquest, and bioterror - not just gwaaaar I am beeeeg dragon gonna kill you aaaaalllll with the powers I was just born with, gwaaaar. Bangar is even further along this line of development. He's not shown to have any mystical powers at all - just an intense pragmatism, charisma, and the ability to partially manipulate a younger charr who turned out to be manipulating him instead.

Finally we get to EoD. Even though Soo-Won herself could have been painted as a massive escalation in the Dragon threat as the literal Mother of all (Elder) Dragons, she's not. Not only is she not fighting us, she seems really nice and for much of the story we're actually working to save her. Ankka does kind of take on otherworldly properties and powers thanks to the Void, but she never rises to the threat level of the previous massive villains. Her primary path towards causing destruction is actually to release Soo-Won to do dragon things using a specific device, not raising enormous armies or leveling cities with some innate power she taps into. Arguably Joon represents the greatest long-term threat in a lot of ways - she has direct access to a Dragon, but almost ruins everything through a very mortal trait - hubris/pride. She's not a crazed god or Void-invested being, but just an intelligent and successful woman who thinks she has all the solutions but turns out to be incredibly naive (at times) and tunnel-visioned.

So yes - each successive Dragon story does seem to focus less on the Dragon itself and more on other things, but in the end I think it works out.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

When were dragons "almost killed easily" in LWS3 or PoF? In LWS3 Balthaazar had to go through an insane multi level plan, that required pretending to be Lazarus, tricking the White Mantle to be his army, absorbing the power of a Bloodstone, and having to steal a weapon made by the Asura(which itself was only able to be made thanks to the lost secrets of Rata Novus, and irreplaceable parts no one really understood from Omadd's Machine), to be able to confront Primordus. And in PoF he had to work with Joko, steel the secrets of the Exalted to build an army of Forged, and had to capture Vlast/Aurene, on top of everything he did in LWS3, in order to be able to even face Kralkatorrik. That's the exact opposite of going down easy. That's about the same level of plan we had to use to take down the dragons ourselves.

In general I agree with you, however there's one point here I disagree with: Technically, the whole Lazarus thing had absolutely nothing to do with stealing Taimi's device or taking down Primordus and Jormag in the end.

He began with a convoluted plan to build an army through the White Mantle's funding, but abandoned it because a better solution popped up out of thin air (from his perspective). There's no indication his Forged army had any relation to his White Mantle and mercenary antics as far as I can tell, so his PoF antics were again fully separated.

In other words, Balthazar could have done jack kitten all of Season 3 just to pop in Episode 5 to steal the device and there would be effectively no change to S3 or PoF except Marjory wouldn't be MIA for most of the season and Caudecus would have had a better chance at taking the throne.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

By the time we get to Jormag and Primordus, we have the conclusion of the Jora storyline through Jhavi (involving the Sons of Svanir in a big way), an entire charr civil war (which featured the Fraenir, then Bangar, then Ryland as the primary Jormag-aligned accessory villains), Braham becoming another quasi-accessory-villain thanks to becoming Primordus' champion, Rytlock/Crecia's little family drama, the whole baggage from PoF about how killing dragons might not work out, and in general meeting so many Spirits of the Wild. Yes, there is a lot going on here, and a lot of narrative content to process if you're into that sort of thing. But as a result I agree that the focus on the Dragons becomes a bit diluted.

However, this gradual dilution of Elder Dragons as the be-all-end-all threat probably worked out for the best in the end. It allows for a less jarring transition away from the Dragon storyline. Imagine if, like Zhaitan, everyone all over the world looked like tiny meaningless threats for each dragon, and each of these tiny threats was very easily convinced to beat each Dragon through the silly power-of-friendship theme so many games lean on (GW2 being a particularly egregious example). Once we kill the last one, the next non-Dragon threat would have a very steep hill to climb to stack up to the decade-long run of massive dragon threats dwarfing everything else completely.

 

 

I never understand why did they put so many charr plot on Jormag when the focus obviously should have been Norn, Kodan and Jotun.

 

The thing is that they never had this "dragon cannot be all killed" plan in the beginning, so when they made this twist and change it felt very forced without enough setup. Especially when doubled up with Balthazar turned evil. The inconsistency did a lot of damage to the overall plot.

 

The dragons also felt too disconnected other than Primordus and Jormag, it would have been much more interesting if the dragons fight themselves to make the plot more interesting.

 

But it's not like they have handled other stories well.

Joko and Balthazar both got their problems.

The "Mursaat all died" thing was also not really logical.  They lived in a city deep inside the jungle.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

47 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

In general I agree with you, however there's one point here I disagree with: Technically, the whole Lazarus thing had absolutely nothing to do with stealing Taimi's device or taking down Primordus and Jormag in the end.

He began with a convoluted plan to build an army through the White Mantle's funding, but abandoned it because a better solution popped up out of thin air (from his perspective). There's no indication his Forged army had any relation to his White Mantle and mercenary antics as far as I can tell, so his PoF antics were again fully separated.

In other words, Balthazar could have done jack kitten all of Season 3 just to pop in Episode 5 to steal the device and there would be effectively no change to S3 or PoF except Marjory wouldn't be MIA for most of the season and Caudecus would have had a better chance at taking the throne.

I felt LWS3 and POF very disjointed, they suddenly switched White Mantle and Mursaat to Balthazar went evil to take on dragons.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

IMO it starts getting a little out of hand with Kralk. His main "accessory" villain, Balthazar, actually is working against him. So we have to deal with Balth first, then kill Kralk ourselves afterwards. Along the way we also deal with Joko and the scarab plague, which arguably fits because Joko's (mis)management of Elona is what gave Balth the opportunity to cause as much havoc there as he did. On top of that we get a sort of purely narrative adversary well - the whole idea that just murdering dragons might not actually be safe at all. Overall that era of the game (not accounting for how much IRL time it covers, I'm not going to bother figuring that out) does feel a bit more crowded than the previous two dragons. Note that as "Lazarus," Balthazar actually involved himself a bit to the tail end of the Mordremoth story as well, appearing in the egg chamber and whatnot.

 

 

To correct you, it wasn't any "mismanagement" by Joko, but merely the fact Joko was MIA trapped in the mists that allowed Balthazar to cause so much havoc. I believe the Order of Shadows outright comments at one point that the only reason the forged were doing so well is because Joko is "For some reason" missing entirely and thus the Awoken aren't simply standing back up over and over.

 

7 hours ago, dusanyu.4057 said:

Than we get the mess that is EoD and the new writers who "care more about characters than the past world building" well i hate to tell you this your New Characters are as likable as a Sadistic orthodontist and don't get me going on this one human is smarter than all of the Asura. 

 

Look closer she is not that darn smart echovald is a dump and the Jade sea is close to mined out completely considering that Jade tech is a relatively new thing judgeing by the age of Joonie -Su  but ooh they have moving pictures. Pfft

 

And than theres Void this scary magic that drives people crazy that was pulled out of the air suddenly (and i don't believe it was planed long term its conveniently using a generic spooky sounding word) now wou can blame everything on it because it was explained so well 

 

Why did abbadon go crazy? void

Balthazar? Void

every other baddie in guild wars? Void

 

And somebody didn't pay attention to End of Dragons at all.

A: Joon is not smarter then all Asura. Jade Tech is pretty equal to Asura Tech, but it's made for the masses and widespread, as opposed to made for personal glories and hoarded.

B: Echovald is a dump, in the singular junkyard there. And if you go outside of the junkyard it's still the Echovald and perfectly fine. Jade Sea is close to mined out completely? You never actually went to end of dragons then! If you did, you'd notice how the top half of the map we visit is at a severe height difference from the lower half, which is unmined. And the entire rest of the jade sea (aka, maybe 3/4s of it?) is at that height, unmined and still untouched. The Jade Expanse. The Jade sea isn't even close to mined out lol.

C : At not point do they even reference the void as affecting anybody else. Quite literally, this is a problem unique to six individuals in the game, the Elder dragons.

 

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

 

The thing is that they never had this "dragon cannot be all killed" plan in the beginning, so when they made this twist and change it felt very forced without enough setup. Especially when doubled up with Balthazar turned evil. The inconsistency did a lot of damage to the overall plot.

 

 

The "Mursaat all died" thing was also not really logical.  They lived in a city deep inside the jungle.

 

The thing is really, sure they probably didn't. Most stories don't have everything nailed down in the start, or things change as you go. But Anet has never had people sit down and say "Factually, killing a dragon has zero impact." then turn around and go "But wait, we can't kill any." We've seen the knowledge available to the characters change, and with it the view on the world. Before Aurene absorbs Balthazar and gains foresight (And Eir bringing the message from Glint), nobody thought of using the cute tiny shiny dragon baby as a replacement for an Elder dragon. We killed Zhaitan because he was a threat. Then we killed Mordremoth and gained access to greater knowledge from the exalted and Rata Novus. Then we started figuring out that killing dragons wasn't a great idea. Then we learned Aurene can absorb the magic and reduce the immediate impact. etc. We were exploring this information alongside the characters, as opposed to having it just laid down and stated to be true and unmovable.

 

Mursaat were wiped out by the titans. That is GW1 lore. Lazarus was the last man standing because he split his soul apart allowing him to be resurrected later.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

46 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

 

The thing is really, sure they probably didn't. Most stories don't have everything nailed down in the start, or things change as you go. But Anet has never had people sit down and say "Factually, killing a dragon has zero impact." then turn around and go "But wait, we can't kill any." We've seen the knowledge available to the characters change, and with it the view on the world. Before Aurene absorbs Balthazar and gains foresight (And Eir bringing the message from Glint), nobody thought of using the cute tiny shiny dragon baby as a replacement for an Elder dragon. We killed Zhaitan because he was a threat. Then we killed Mordremoth and gained access to greater knowledge from the exalted and Rata Novus. Then we started figuring out that killing dragons wasn't a great idea. Then we learned Aurene can absorb the magic and reduce the immediate impact. etc. We were exploring this information alongside the characters, as opposed to having it just laid down and stated to be true and unmovable.

 

It surely has some impact, but suddenly went to "it will wipe the world" is a big meh. Why didn't Glint say anything, only to be added as her "plan".

 

You can add stuff later, but it has to be smooth and it didn't.

 

46 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

Mursaat were wiped out by the titans. That is GW1 lore. Lazarus was the last man standing because he split his soul apart allowing him to be resurrected later.

 

No, quite a few Mursaat were in War of Kryta.

 

The Titans didn't go far into the jungle, the Lich opened 3 portals and not into the Mursaat city.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Did you even play the core game? The entire focus on Jormag in the Norn story was pushed aside, the Norn got very tiny to do with Jormag. The Jotun got kicked aside. Kodan got little to do as well.

Nor was the Quggan clan got anything to do with Jormag.

Fraenir was the only figure we got, the SoS was supposed to play a huge part in the story, instead we got very little.

Jhavi also got less and less plot, she was the only Norn main character in the JORMAG story.

The ice charr, not the main army of Jormag Icebrood. We didn't even get to see enough SoS members.

And then it switched very quickly to fight Jormag's minions and had little plot, then it went to the final meta. The story simply ended very rushed.

The Norn were the focus of IBS Chapters 1 and 2, and got a pretty good 50/50 split with the Charr in Chapter 4. They had a big three part story, the same Anet did for the Charr Civil War, Joko, and the White Mantle. They weren't kicked aside at all. They were front and center for a significant part of the story.

The Quaggan played a part in the Bitterfrost chapter. The Kodan were in Bitterfrost, the 2nd half of Bjora, and in the Snowden Drifts DRM. The Jotun also showed up in Bitterfrost, but GW2 had long retconed to Jotun to be inhabitants of the lower Shiverpeaks, and thus were never really part of the Jormag story.

The Sons of Svanir, and the Icebrood, were all over Bjora, and the northern part of Drizzlewood. Literal armies of them, with more coming out of portals. The eastern Bjora meta involving Jora's Keep is all about a large Svanir army laying siege to the fort, and us fighting them off. And theres multiple events involving the Svanir camps, Svanir doing necromantic rituals in the caves, Svanir doing totem rituals for Jormag across Bjora, etc. Svanir were everywhere, it wasn't just the Fraenir, that we got. And the campaign in Drizzlewood wasn't just us fighting the Frost Legion. Svanir, Icebrood, Fallen, and Aberrant, forces were also in the northern part in significant numbers. This followed up by the DRMs which had even MORE Svanir, Icebrood, and Frost Legion, showing up in numbers. There wasn't just a small number of them at the end. They were pretty systemic throughout IBS.

Jhavi wasn't the only Norn main character in the Jormag story, Braham was even more a main character then she was. And the Norn in general are a race that defy the idea of civilization, and believe in the idea of forging your legend. They don't have armies, and due to Braham's cracking of the tooth they believed it was part of his legend to kill Jormag. It makes sense that a people with little sense of community would focus mainly on one or two major, individual, characters. Since that's how their species works.

8 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

That is simply what happened. Balthazar's real god power was taken, he was simply using a machine to kill the two, and later didn't spend too much effort to kill Kralkatorrik.

You forget Balthazar had sucked up the magic of a bloodstone to empower himself, and had zapped a good part of Jormag and Primordus' power as well. He didn't just try to fight Kralk with no power beyond the warbeast machine.

8 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

EoTN is all about Primordus' champion waking up, we got the unify the clans and had a massive fight with the invading destroyers,  Icebrood saga didn't have such length and focus on the dragon itself..

Again, we already did the unify everyone stuff back in core with the forming of the Pact. And Champions had a large scale invasion of Tyria by Primordus stretching from Brisban Wildlands all the way to Ebonhawke. And said invasion, as well as Jormag's, did cause a number of smaller groups who were not already part of the Pact to join up and help. Champions was arguably a larger scale conflict then even EoTN was back in GW1.

8 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Now you are using double standards .

You said EotN was about "more to do with us going around and solving racial issues so we could get a bunch of people to fight the Great Destroyer",  and you are using we went to see dwarves which got very little to do with Primordus(less than EotN) to fill your hole? Nice try.

Other than these non related stuff, all you can pick is one episode of LS3 and the final meta, it showed how weak the plot is.

That's not what a double standard is.

And I was pointing out that the often claimed about "lack of Dwarf story" in IBS, a complaint since IBS involved Primordus who is typically paired with people's desires for a Dwarf plot, was because Anet had already been doing the Dwarf story through the game's history from launch, though LWS3(Ember Bay), PoF(Derelict Delve), LWS4(Deepstone and Thunderhead), and into IBS(Forging Steel and Champions)

Also Ember Bay in LWS3, the Derelict Delve in PoF, and Forging Steel and Champions in IBS, all involved Primordus/Destroyers. So it wasn't just one episode of LWS3, and the final meta, that dealt with the Primordus plot.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[voltaicbore.8012]

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Also Ember Bay in LWS3, the Derelict Delve in PoF, and Forging Steel and Champions in IBS, all involved Primordus/Destroyers. So it wasn't just one episode of LWS3, and the final meta, that dealt with the Primordus plot.

See this is what you get consistently wrong across a disappointing proportion of your posts in threads like this - you completely ignore the balance of quantity vs. quality when you feel like it suits you. And yes, I can reasonably infer it's a cherry-picking choice on your part - in threads you start and for ideas you champion, you demonstrate a pretty strong grasp of actual narrative depth in your proposals/interpretations. 

Take, for instance, the dwarven presence in Forging Steel. For all the "Dwarf story" we got there.... they might as well have been particularly well-armed skritt. They were not presented in a manner that distinguished them from any other non-Dwarven field mob. Every single map zone could have "dwarves" like that and it still wouldn't be a worthy presentation of them.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Zhaitan was good. Sure the fight was lacking a bit but when we finally saw him in the sky + his theme, I got shivers. 

Mordemoth was good. As a sylvari main, it was even better. 

Still remember doing the story with friends, them wondering why I'm suddenly stunned. 

Or when they broke me out of Mordis control in the story fight. 

 

Balthasar was alright. Still think the power creep of what the commander can do got a bit to high. 

I understand we have a God Sword and an baby elder dragon on our side but fighting 1 on 1 against a God of war? Making him look like a total Noob? 

This guy casually absorbed a literal nuke. 

 

Joko was meh. Pretty simple. 

Kralk was ok. 

 

Jormag and Primordus. We all know it already what I would say. 😑

 

Soo-Won. Totally understandable that Anet wants to end the dragon story line. They could easily stretched it 10 more years. 

So I'm fine with it. 

 

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Norn were the focus of IBS Chapters 1 and 2, and got a pretty good 50/50 split with the Charr in Chapter 4. They had a big three part story, the same Anet did for the Charr Civil War, Joko, and the White Mantle. They weren't kicked aside at all. They were front and center for a significant part of the story.

 

No, the Norn only got very little to do compare to the Char. Even chapter 1 and 2 had a lot of charr stuff.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Quaggan played a part in the Bitterfrost chapter. The Kodan were in Bitterfrost, the 2nd half of Bjora, and in the Snowden Drifts DRM. The Jotun also showed up in Bitterfrost, but GW2 had long retconed to Jotun to be inhabitants of the lower Shiverpeaks, and thus were never really part of the Jormag story.

 

They weren't in the Icebrood Saga. They were much more related to Jormag than Charr. It makes no sense to let the Charr become NO.1 focus in the saga.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Sons of Svanir, and the Icebrood, were all over Bjora, and the northern part of Drizzlewood. Literal armies of them, with more coming out of portals. The eastern Bjora meta involving Jora's Keep is all about a large Svanir army laying siege to the fort, and us fighting them off. And theres multiple events involving the Svanir camps, Svanir doing necromantic rituals in the caves, Svanir doing totem rituals for Jormag across Bjora, etc. Svanir were everywhere, it wasn't just the Fraenir, that we got. And the campaign in Drizzlewood wasn't just us fighting the Frost Legion. Svanir, Icebrood, Fallen, and Aberrant, forces were also in the northern part in significant numbers. This followed up by the DRMs which had even MORE Svanir, Icebrood, and Frost Legion, showing up in numbers. There wasn't just a small number of them at the end. They were pretty systemic throughout IBS.

No, they were not the main focus, Jora's Keep had many other mobs as well, the final boss wasn't a Svanir.

 

It was, even the Kodan dungeon got more figures.

 

They were the main focus, the shamans and harbingers of Jormag before IB saga, and then they got pushed aside for the charr.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jhavi wasn't the only Norn main character in the Jormag story, Braham was even more a main character then she was. And the Norn in general are a race that defy the idea of civilization, and believe in the idea of forging your legend. They don't have armies, and due to Braham's cracking of the tooth they believed it was part of his legend to kill Jormag. It makes sense that a people with little sense of community would focus mainly on one or two major, individual, characters. Since that's how their species works.

 

Braham was the only other guy and part of the main group. That's also weak compare to the charr, who got little to do with Jormag before IB saga.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You forget Balthazar had sucked up the magic of a bloodstone to empower himself, and had zapped a good part of Jormag and Primordus' power as well. He didn't just try to fight Kralk with no power beyond the warbeast machine.

That's little compare to his former god power. He simply could kill 2 dragons with a machine. Kralkatorrik also sucked Zhaitan and Mordremoth' power but didn't show much resistance.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Again, we already did the unify everyone stuff back in core with the forming of the Pact. And Champions had a large scale invasion of Tyria by Primordus stretching from Brisban Wildlands all the way to Ebonhawke. And said invasion, as well as Jormag's, did cause a number of smaller groups who were not already part of the Pact to join up and help. Champions was arguably a larger scale conflict then even EoTN was back in GW1.

 

That's very weak and splited by 2 dragons. With very little plot compare to EotN.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

That's not what a double standard is.

And I was pointing out that the often claimed about "lack of Dwarf story" in IBS, a complaint since IBS involved Primordus who is typically paired with people's desires for a Dwarf plot, was because Anet had already been doing the Dwarf story through the game's history from launch, though LWS3(Ember Bay), PoF(Derelict Delve), LWS4(Deepstone and Thunderhead), and into IBS(Forging Steel and Champions)

Also Ember Bay in LWS3, the Derelict Delve in PoF, and Forging Steel and Champions in IBS, all involved Primordus/Destroyers. So it wasn't just one episode of LWS3, and the final meta, that dealt with the Primordus plot.

 

Dwarf story has little to do with Primordus. Again you had to pick all the other previous stuff, even the PoF dungeon to say about Primordus. LWS3, the buildup for Balthazar got richer stuff and presented the dragon better than IB itself.

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

 

On 3/21/2022 at 3:39 PM, dusanyu.4057 said:

 

Than we get the mess that is EoD and the new writers who "care more about characters than the past world building" well i hate to tell you this your New Characters are as likable as a Sadistic orthodontist and don't get me going on this one human is smarter than all of the Asura. 

 

Look closer she is not that darn smart echovald is a dump and the Jade sea is close to mined out completely considering that Jade tech is a relatively new thing judgeing by the age of Joonie -Su  but ooh they have moving pictures. Pfft

You do realize the last map covers an area less than 1/5 of the total jade sea, and if you look at the sides they have mined down BUILDINGS worth of depth and still have areas where they haven't hit regular rock yet. There is roughly an area the size of Europe that is as yet unmined.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

21 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

See this is what you get consistently wrong across a disappointing proportion of your posts in threads like this - you completely ignore the balance of quantity vs. quality when you feel like it suits you. And yes, I can reasonably infer it's a cherry-picking choice on your part - in threads you start and for ideas you champion, you demonstrate a pretty strong grasp of actual narrative depth in your proposals/interpretations. 

Take, for instance, the dwarven presence in Forging Steel. For all the "Dwarf story" we got there.... they might as well have been particularly well-armed skritt. They were not presented in a manner that distinguished them from any other non-Dwarven field mob. Every single map zone could have "dwarves" like that and it still wouldn't be a worthy presentation of them.

That was the point though. Every bit of lore from pre-release, all the way through launch, and up until Champions, indicated that the dwarves were dead, and gone. They all turned to stone, went underground to fight the Destroyers, held them back for ages, but eventually lost due to attrition, and now the Destroyers are popping up all over the surface because the Dwarves were no long around to keep them contained. Ogden was the last, and our discovery of Rhoban all alone in Ember Bay was something of a miracle. The whole point of the Stone Summit's appearance in Forging Steel was that not even those who tried to deny the rite of the Great Dwarf could escape the fate of the dwarves. They who tried to tap into the power of Primordus cursed themselves to be wiped out alongside the Destroyers who wiped out their brethren. The logs of their fate being the last reminder that the Stone Summit were. Our only experience of the dwarves the ruins they left behind, and the forge they left us to make the weapon needed to kill Kralkatorrik.

The problem with your argument is that you use the idea of "worthy" presentation. What is a "worthy" way of them being presented? A big LW chapter, or a whole season, where we go underground, and find a bunch of Dwarves tooling around in a dwarven outpost, and get to talk to them like any other NPC, in sheer spite of literally all lore going back to pre-luanch? Is that actually a worthy presentation of them in the setting, or just what you wanted DESPITE the setting. People have a habit of latching onto ideas, or concepts, they like in fictional settings, and making up their own idea of how it should go, and sticking to that with religious fervor, even if everything else in the setting contradicts it. These same people always come away disappointed when said thing actually gets done since its never done the way they wanted, its done in the way it was originally set up. The only truly "worthy" appearance of the Dwarves in GW2 is a nonappearance, since lore dictates they should all be dead(except Ogden and Rhoban) and thus not appear. And thats how GW2 treated them from launch all the way until Champions.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to learn that the dwarves were originally not supposed to appear in IBS at all, and their appearance in Champions was just something thrown in to pad out the ally roster while throwing fans a minor nostalgia bone. Especially since from everything we know the original plan was a two parter in the Centaur Homelands(which would have focused on the Centaurs obviously) then the final Dragonstorm meta battle, leaving no real room for a significant dwarven story.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Scavarius.6059]

On 3/21/2022 at 4:36 PM, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

 I will say Zhaitan's plot was quite good, most of the Pact's characters were a bit bland, but it showed how menacing the Risen were, the book Sea of Sorrow was written well. Zhaitan's plot was great OTHER than the final fight was a bit meh.

ppls seem to forget that zhaitan was drained by the human gods, starved by actions taken by the pact and shot at modified magic that was pretty much toxic to him. he also didnt realy take the assault on his roost too seriously, earning him a kitten up the butt.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

5 hours ago, Scavarius.6059 said:

ppls seem to forget that zhaitan was drained by the human gods, starved by actions taken by the pact and shot at modified magic that was pretty much toxic to him. he also didnt realy take the assault on his roost too seriously, earning him a kitten up the butt.

It's not about "Is it reasonable" but "should a epic finale be like that".

 

I don't understand why Anet continue to waste time to let us fight those Risen which we already fought before rather than FOCUS on the dragon's fight.

[Tamias.7059]

It was a big gamble to introduce these eldritch beings from the dawn of time into the setting as the major threats and imo it didn't really pay off. Even holding over from GW1 alone there are so many interesting unresolved storylines that got sidelined by the Elder Dragons. The Elder Dragons caused big changes in the world but as characters themselves they aren't interesting, which is why they got given personalities (in Zhaitan's case, retroactively)—but that made them less mysterious and threatening as well. Jormag is probably the one that came close to doing both pretty well.

Then again, the one time we digressed from the Elder Dragons plot was with Balthazar, and that was a mess. We thought we were dealing with Lazarus for a big payoff from a GW1 storyline and then it turned out we'd been dealing with a totally different character whose motivations I never quite bought. The death of one of the human gods should have had huge repercussions for the entire of human society and it just...didn't, really.

Even the Personal Story introduced lots of new potentially interesting story threads and most of them (including some of the more interesting ones), ANet seem to have just lost interest in finishing. It's disappointing.

I think the Elder Dragons were a fundamentally flawed premise and it was hard to ever make them work properly, but there are also wider issues with the storytelling.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Tamias.7059

[Tyson.5160]

I feel like the problem certain people have is that they want everything in an organized cookie cutter story with a  season or expansion. “ I want a Norn expansion with Jormag” or “I want an Asura expansion with Primordus” it’s makes the story and plot feel very inorganic and too neat. Who cares if there is charr in the Jormag plot. Does Bangar look over at Jormag and the Shiverpeaks and think that’s the Norns dragon that’s the old norn lands, we can’t go over there because that’s the norm expansion content.

 

I think after the personal story and especially after Heart of Thorns, the devs didn’t want to create a predictable, inorganic story, where’s it’s the Asura expansion or the Charr expansion. If we look at the personal story to EoD as the Elder Dragon story it makes it feel more appealing, rather then blocking things into these neat little expansion packages.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Tyson.5160

[Kalavier.1097]

26 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I feel like the problem certain have is that they want everything in an organized cookie cutter story with a  season or expansion. “ I want a Norn expansion with Jormag” or “I want an Asura expansion with Primordus” it’s makes the story and plot feel very inorganic and too neat. Who cares if there is charr in the Jormag plot. Does Bangar look over at Jormag and the Shiverpeaks and think that’s the Norns dragon that’s the old norn lands, we can’t go over there because that’s the norm expansion content.

 

I think after the personal story and especially after Heart of Thorns, the devs didn’t want to create a predictable, inorganic story, where’s it’s the Asura expansion or the Charr expansion. If we look at the personal story to EoD as the Elder Dragon story it makes it feel more appealing, rather then blocking things into these neat little expansion packages.

 

Plus it's been kinda implied that the Underground Asura cities were all, y'know, destroyed. There wouldn't be much to gloriously reclaim.

 

A depths of Tyria exploration would be cool as hell, but it'd also be vast as the cave networks are. And yeah, I agree with your point about it is a bit... too neat to just try to make it that way with explicitly X expansion focused on X race.

[Ashantara.8731]

Putting LWS3 and PoF under one category is unfair. LWS3 was an embarrassment, but PoF was good and the Balthazar debacle handled well and put to and end I can live with.