When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

GW2 in general is not a game about how big your stats are. It's about how you use them. That zerker soulbeast I linked above will kill me in a single rapid fire if they land even half of it. They're still auto-attacking for 1/4 of my health, and threaten a 1-shot combo in melee. Even if I have more stats, I'm still the underdog in that engagement.

Go to the spvp section, there is a topic about power SB. Read and you'll see most comments are "l2p if you lose to it". spvp does not have cele stats defenses padding.

Don't get me wrong, power SB is one of my toughest matchups as str spb. Even the LB/GS build is hard to beat if the player is good (and is using protect me + stab stance). But just this Saturday I watched a quite good LB/GS power SB fight a cele boonbeast for 5+ min and eventually the power SB lost. If you are being auto-ed for 1/4 of your health on cele you are not keeping protection up. Not to mention not pressuring the ranger when they are on LB.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Puck.3697]

9 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

TBH removing con and expertise would suffice, there was no reason for them. It wouldn't be far fetched if they decided to make a new stat and adding it to celestial without considering lowering the overall stat bloat. 

i was mainly looking at ways to reduce its Pressure in WvWvW while making it a Feasible set of armour to use in PvE Content simultaniously.. based on the fact they've started throwing this on boosted players as a Starter set.. they could follow through using this as a entry PvE set of gear if they were to Remove toughness from it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

i was mainly looking at ways to reduce its Pressure in WvWvW while making it a Feasible set of armour to use in PvE Content simultaniously.. based on the fact they've started throwing this on boosted players as a Starter set.. they could follow through using this as a entry PvE set of gear if they were to Remove toughness from it.

I mean you can still do PvE without the con and expertise. Concentration adds so much value with classes that can spam boons.

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Go to the spvp section, there is a topic about power SB. Read and you'll see most comments are "l2p if you lose to it". spvp does not have cele stats defenses padding.

Don't get me wrong, power SB is one of my toughest matchups as str spb. Even the LB/GS build is hard to beat if the player is good (and is using protect me + stab stance). But just this Saturday I watched a quite good LB/GS power SB fight a cele boonbeast for 5+ min and eventually the power SB lost. If you are being auto-ed for 1/4 of your health on cele you are not keeping protection up. Not to mention not pressuring the ranger when they are on LB.

I think people are confused why celestial needs a nerf, the overall statline is "weaker" then normal sets alone, but concentration itself adds soo much value to the set, being able to keep prot, might, and fury up adds soo much more value then other sets alone.

Perfect example would be boonbeast. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

It's not providing 30% more value across the board though. Those numbers are filtered through coefficients, and you end up with less impact. Eg.

• My heal goes from 4920 up to 5509 switching to cele, only a ~12% boost.

And regen gains ~50%. Yes, the actual increase in healing will vary a lot depending on the build. If your heal skill is your only source of healing, the value will be lower. For some builds ~ 30% more overall healing is realistic tho.  It's about what cele slb gains for example.

Quote

I'll grant you the boon/condi durations. Those do actually get a ~35% boost. However, even that isn't the whole story. Higher duration aegis doesn't matter  if it's always consumed in the first half of its duration anyway. Likewise, condi lasting longer doesn't matter if it's always cleansed after a few seconds. The main value cele provides to me is making my cover condi last long enough to get cleansed, so my actual damage can tick rather than be erased every time.

Which i why i said "up to" (it's 42% for full asc btw). And yes, you won't always get the full value from conc/exp. Which applies to every attribute combination that grants those stats not just cele. But it's usually the short duration but high impact boons and condis that can make the difference and that benefit the most from increased duration. Might, stab, prot, quickness, ... all very powerful boons that gain a lot from concentration. Or think about immob ... sometimes even just a second more can make a big difference. That's what matters, not some aegis duration or having 150% uptime on swiftness instead of 110%.

Quote

GW2 in general is not a game about how big your stats are. It's about how you use them.

Just because stats aren't the only factor doesn't mean they don't matter. Again, we aren't talking about a minor difference here. It's like comparing green or even white gear to ascended, you think that wouldn't matter either?

I mean, yes, it is possible defeat some players as upleveld char without full traits and in random green gear. But that doesn't mean said upleveled is balanced compared to full asc lvl 80 with a real build, right?

Quote

That zerker soulbeast I linked above will kill me in a single rapid fire if they land even half of it. They're still auto-attacking for 1/4 of my health, and threaten a 1-shot combo in melee. Even if I have more stats, I'm still the underdog in that engagement.

Then your build is bad or you are playing badly. Sry.

No, being able to make bad cele builds doesn't mean cele isn't op. Yes, you can't facetank a full burst from a Sic'em slb. Regardless of gear. But it is telegraphed burst on rather long cd. Avoid most of it and once sic'em and OWP are down, cele should outpressure and outsustain the slb easily. Generally any decent cele build should eat most if not all glass builds alive in a 1vs1. Pressure + sustain > avoidable burst without sustain. The harder to avoid "oneshot from stealth" builds like nade scrapper or shatter mes shouldn't be able to actually 100->0 cele (well, maybe cele ele without boons, idk, but other than that ... doubt). And some cele builds can even burst quite hard still, especially vs glass (eg. nade barrage can hit for like 15k with cele, cele slb can hit for way over 20k with axe5+owp and if combo'd with a fire field you can get 3k burn ticks on top).

Edited April 5, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean you can still do PvE without the con and expertise. Concentration adds so much value with classes that can spam boons.

true, but Toughness will turn u into a tank the moment u walk into a Raid due to it being a taunt mechanic in this game.

[Swagger.1459]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I think people are confused why celestial needs a nerf, the overall statline is "weaker" then normal sets alone, but concentration itself adds soo much value to the set, being able to keep prot, might, and fury up adds soo much more value then other sets alone.

Perfect example would be boonbeast. 

Nobody here is confused. You don’t care about balance. You only care about winning. This thread wouldn’t even exist had the outcome of the 2nd duel been in your favor. 
 

The great players I know learn from mistakes and get better, not ask the game to change for them. 
 

Someone in cele could get zipped down in 2s when you start adding numbers, but all you care about is dueling, and “fair” duels. WvW isn’t a duel zone. 
 

I’d try spvp so you can have “fair” duels, bc you’re not going to find it in wvw and the devs aren’t going to change the mode to accommodate your unwillingness to change or adjust.

 

And all this cele hubbub, yet you seem to like your “1 shot Mesmer” and think that’s some proper game balance, but if something survives longer than a few seconds, then that’s problematic. 
 

 

[Obtena.7952]

I suspect there is no reason to change Cele from the perspective being offered in OP. It's simply a baseline improvement and Exp and Conc are stats like any other that affect baseline. How much the value of those stats are is really not much of a consequence, as long as optimal builds are available outside using Cele, which they do to a significant amount. 

OP thinks adding two stats requires balancing out the stats on Cele overall based on some self-imposed 'math' argument. Seems to have COMPLETELY ignored the idea that adding the stats WAS a 'balancing out' of the stats on Cele overall, except not from his imposed math, but Anet's. Guess which one is more relevant?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Celestial gear abusers: "nothing wrong".

Rince and repeat until Anet finally removes it.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Celestial gear abusers: "nothing wrong".

Rince and repeat until Anet finally removes it.

Anet buffed Celestial because it was missing Conc and Exp. Other than THIS one time, I can't recall Anet ever making a prefix change. Therefore, let's say it's a safe bet that in PVE/WvW ... Anet is NOT a big fan of changing prefixes to balance performance. 

So based on this very sound assumption, why would ANY player think for a second, Anet would change the Celestial prefix or even LESS likely, remove it outright?

Here is what I believe. It's actually EASIER for Anet to balance out competitive game modes if people use FEWER prefixes and taking that to the extreme, it's EASIEST when people use ONLY ONE. What prefix do you think people will tend to gravitate to in a gamestate where most people are using ONE prefix? What's the point I'm making here? It's NOT in Anet's interest to continually change prefixes, even if one starts to rise to the top in frequency of use because of it being 'unbalanced'.  

Edited April 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Swagger.1459]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean you can still do PvE without the con and expertise. Concentration adds so much value with classes that can spam boons.

Oh, just looked at one of my 7 rangers that I use for PvE with full Celestial Gear… 

In WvW… SB with Full Celestial plus Traveler Runes (bc I’m not taking them out just to make a post or bothering to load up the leggy gear and select cele stats for each one)

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 6 1/2s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 6 1/2s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 6 1/2s

-Regen 16s

-Swiftness 16s

 

No gear at all… That means 0 gear…

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 4s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 4s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 4s

-Regen 10s

-Swiftness 10s

 

… So the base cele gear essentially adds 2s on the important boons in wvw. Like you really need the devs to change the base gear for the entire mode because someone having a couple extra seconds on some boons makes it impossible to defeat in a duel?
 

And yeah, that’s a serious question I’m asking because that’s exactly what you are requesting of the devs. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[Bunny.9834]

Nope. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

22 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Oh, just looked at one of my 7 rangers that I use for PvE with full Celestial Gear… 

In WvW… SB with Full Celestial plus Traveler Runes (bc I’m not taking them out just to make a post or bothering to load up the leggy gear and select cele stats for each one)

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 6 1/2s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 6 1/2s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 6 1/2s

-Regen 16s

-Swiftness 16s

 

No gear at all… That means 0 gear…

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 4s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 4s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 4

-Regen 10s

-Swiftness 10s

 

… So the base cele gear essentially adds 2s on the important boons in wvw. Like you really need the the devs to change the base gear for the entire mode because someone having a couple extra seconds on some boons makes it impossible to defeat in a duel?
 

And yeah, that’s a serious question I’m asking because that’s exactly what you are requesting of the devs. 

 

 

 

 

 

So you are looking at skills at face value, this already shows what kinda player you are in WvW, then again I'm not too surprised.

Traits/sigils weapon skills all benefit from concentration, but again replying to your post is like replying to a brick wall, its fine at the end of the day I also have builds that abuses celestial stats. 

No doubt if ANET decides to introduce new stats that celestial again will be added on at full value without addressing the stat bloat then so be it. 

ATM as a mirage using full celestial gear, a greatsword ambush can give me perma 25 might stacks along with increased duration on 25 vulnstacks, similarly on staff ambush I get value from the alacrity spam and condi. 

So a class can get nerfed because it works super well with celestial stats but underperforms on other stats hmm I don't know, guess its just a L2P issue at that point right? 

If truly celestial is so balanced why isn't it available in sPvP?

Edited April 6, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Swagger.1459]

19 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So you are looking at skills at face value, this already shows what kinda player you are in WvW, then again I'm not too surprised.

Traits/sigils weapon skills all benefit from concentration, but again replying to your post is like replying to a brick wall, its fine at the end of the day I also have builds that abuses celestial stats. 

No doubt if ANET decides to introduce new stats that celestial again will be added on at full value without addressing the stat bloat then so be it. 

ATM as a mirage using full celestial gear, a greatsword ambush can give me perma 25 might stacks along with increased duration on 25 vulnstacks, similarly on staff ambush I get value from the alacrity spam and condi. 

So a class can get nerfed because it works super well with celestial stats but underperforms on other stats hmm I don't know, guess its just a L2P issue at that point right? 

If truly celestial is so balanced why isn't it available in sPvP?

I thought this was about celestial gear, and that unmanageable and “unfair” 2s of extra boons it offers to quality boons… Now you are complaining about things outside of celestial gear itself… You’re not making sense and keep shifting the goal post. 
 

There ya have it, you can duel in spvp and you won’t have to worry about the gear set. And WvW isn’t Structured Player vs Player anyway, so I think there is some confusion on your part that’s causing the disconnect. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

58 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

I thought this was about celestial gear, and that unmanageable and “unfair” 2s of extra boons it offers to quality boons… Now you are complaining about things outside of celestial gear itself… You’re not making sense and keep shifting the goal post. 
 

There ya have it, you can duel in spvp and you won’t have to worry about the gear set. And WvW isn’t Structured Player vs Player anyway, so I think there is some confusion on your part that’s causing the disconnect. 

Wait did you just say that WvW isn't structured on Player vs Players...? 

Also EVERYTHING I mentioned focused on boons and boon duration as well as condi duration. As far as how balanced celestial stats are, its curious how it got removed from sPvP considering how balanced sPvP is. FOR SURE that's the best way to determine duels, by actively removing amulets runes and sigils.

[Swagger.1459]

41 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Wait did you just say that WvW isn't structured on Player vs Players...? 

Also EVERYTHING I mentioned focused on boons and boon duration as well as condi duration. As far as how balanced celestial stats are, its curious how it got removed from sPvP considering how balanced sPvP is. FOR SURE that's the best way to determine duels, by actively removing amulets runes and sigils.

So what you are saying is that you aren’t aware of the differences between wvw and spvp??? 
 

So we need to balance everything based off of your duel outcomes on the side of smc in wvw? What do we do if a player is better than you on X gear set? Do we nerf that gear set anyway? Should that be the new criteria for all gear… and runes…  and sigils… and food? If the opponent dueling you wins, then we need to assess all their gear for nerfs? 
 

And there we have it. You think this game is balanced off of 1v1. Big mistake in thinking. I’m sorry, unfortunately it’s not. And wvw isn’t your personal duel zone. 

 

And I just want to check for clarification, are you also implying that celestial gear automatically gives you 25 stacks of might by donning it, thus needing a nerf? Or you implying that 25 stacks of might is the real issue and we need to nerf all professions that can do that? Personally, I think we need to nerf the 25 stacks of might thing on a couple professions, primarily Mesmer. That or we really need to cut Mesmer down to 11k health if we keep those 25 stacks of might. 
 

I mean if you really think about it, you can gain all sorts of concentration without celestial gear, so we really need to start nerfing Mesmer might stacking first to tackle the issue logically. Then reevaluate the immortal gear sets that provide 2s of extra boons. 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[Puck.3697]

20 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

So what you are saying is that you aren’t aware of the differences between wvw and spvp??? 
 

So we need to balance everything based off of your duel outcomes on the side of smc in wvw? What do we do if a player is better than you on X gear set? Do we nerf that gear set anyway? Should that be the new criteria for all gear… and runes…  and sigils… and food? If the opponent dueling you wins, then we need to assess all their gear for nerfs? 
 

And there we have it. You think this game is balanced off of 1v1. Big mistake in thinking. I’m sorry, unfortunately it’s not. And wvw isn’t your personal duel zone. 

 

And I just want to check for clarification, are you also implying that celestial gear automatically gives you 25 stacks of might by donning it, thus needing a nerf? Or you implying that 25 stacks of might is the real issue and we need to nerf all professions that can do that? Personally, I think we need to nerf the 25 stacks of might thing on a couple professions, primarily Mesmer. That or we really need to cut Mesmer down to 11k health if we keep those 25 stacks of might. 
 

I mean if you really think about it, you can gain all sorts of concentration without celestial gear, so we really need to start nerfing Mesmer might stacking first to tackle the issue logically. Then reevaluate the immortal gear sets that provide 2s of extra boons. 

 

You reliese such a nerf would hit these speccs in the face in other game modes? They can't remove might stacks in WvWvW/spvp only.

Let's not break proffessions in 3 game modes to retain 1 armour star. 

When we are talking about variety it's even worse to be outright deleting builds in every game mode then it would ever be to remove one stat type of nerf it down 

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

You reliese such a nerf would hit these speccs in the face in other game modes? They can't remove might stacks in WvWvW/spvp only.

Let's not break proffessions in 3 game modes to retain 1 armour star. 

When we are talking about variety it's even worse to be outright deleting builds in every game mode then it would ever be to remove one stat type of nerf it down 

Its fine, clearly nerfing classes is better then toning down a stat line. 

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its fine, clearly nerfing classes is better then toning down a stat line. 

It's as if they can't forsee the fact that if you nerf every proffession surrounding it's existence it forces every proffession to run the set as other choices have been deleted on the way 😂 

Which damages variety and options more then even deleting the entire stat type would actually cause. Which is the exact thing thejr trying to use to defend it 😂

Sometimes I can say I'm happy Anet appear to ignore alot of feedback 

What's even funnier is zerg Meta builds don't use celestial. This is a stat that only affects small scale PvP in WvWvW. So it's of no impact to the builds their trying to defend 🤦

Most support builds in WvWvW run minstral meta wise as far as I'm aware.  Via dealing with the set itself they can balance this without any damage to the actual builds used in WvWvW. But they'd rather sink a entire proffession for the sake of it. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Salt Mode.3780]

19 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

It's as if they can't forsee the fact that if you nerf every proffession surrounding it's existence it forces every proffession to run the set as other choices have been deleted on the way 😂 

Which damages variety and options more then even deleting the entire stat type would actually cause. Which is the exact thing thejr trying to use to defend it 😂

Sometimes I can say I'm happy Anet appear to ignore alot of feedback 

What's even funnier is zerg Meta builds don't use celestial. This is a stat that only affects small scale PvP in WvWvW. So it's of no impact to the builds their trying to defend 🤦

Most support builds in WvWvW run minstral meta wise as far as I'm aware.  Via dealing with the set itself they can balance this without any damage to the actual builds used in WvWvW. But they'd rather sink a entire proffession for the sake of it. 

People who defend it are also probably the people who abuse it in the current meta for small scale roaming and pvp. If truly people dont use it there is no need to be so hostile in trying to defend it as it wouldn't affect them anyhow. Doesn't take a genius to spot those people out. 

[Serephen.3420]

26 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

People who defend it are also probably the people who abuse it in the current meta for small scale roaming and pvp. If truly people dont use it there is no need to be so hostile in trying to defend it as it wouldn't affect them anyhow. Doesn't take a genius to spot those people out. 

Did you make this account specifically to post this? Because your name is amusingly appropriate. 

[Kozumi.5816]

5 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Celestial gear abusers: "nothing wrong".

Rince and repeat until Anet finally removes it.

Considering Mechanist hasn't received a single nerf yet.. maybe in 2050 celestial will get looked at.

[Coldtart.4785]

If it really is the gear and not the class show me a functional thief build that would benefit from running celestial. The only thing that seems remotely plausible is some sort of specter pocket healer.

[Salt Mode.3780]

7 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Did you make this account specifically to post this? Because your name is amusingly appropriate. 

Its strange how an account name dictates what they post and considering I have way more post then you it doesn't seem likely that this account was specifically made for this topic.

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

If it really is the gear and not the class show me a functional thief build that would benefit from running celestial. The only thing that seems remotely plausible is some sort of specter pocket healer.

I've already dueled a cele specter, its pretty obnoxious. It was like the one profession not running cele, and now it is running it also. Though cele war is extremely rare.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hotride.2187