When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[KeoLegend.5132]

Condi cleanse would like to have a word with you

Also, Trailblazer sounds better on paper but in practice im not sure. Because you deal 0 dmg outside of burning, while in celestial you also have decent power damage to back it up

[Rashagar.8349]

If it was to get nerfed, I could see the nerf being halving the amount of concentration/expertise it gives. So if equipped fully in the "dedicated" HoT stats you would have ~40% of one of Boon dur or Condi dur (usually) while the jack of all trades Celestial would give ~20% of both. (Excuse the very rough napkin maths).

 

But I don't particularly have an opinion on if it needs a nerf, or what "balance" is. I do know that pre-Celestial getting concentration/expertise I was enjoying mixing and matching armour pieces to get a desired spread, and post-those changes it seems like it's usually just better to take celestial everything than mix and match anything. I also know that arguing about balance is intensely boring when you can just... play the game and experiment instead...

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Nah don't nerf celestial, farming to change stats is such a pain in the kitten.

[Skada.1362]

Celestial needs a massive nerf tbh. Its disgustingly overpowered on many, many builds and classes. It's literally carrying every noob to greatness and kills skilled gameplay and build diversity completely. The only people praising Celestial are the ones getting hard carried by it, this kitten is really unhealthy for the game lets get real.

[Obtena.7952]

Celestial Gear: When you realize you aren't as good as you think and need to blame something. 

[cgMatt.5162]

Celestial is boring, takes to long to kill with it. Run into one 1v1 and it's an easy disengage bc no one should be dumb enough to fight it.

[Tseison.4659]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:48 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

Cele is a bit bonkers in WvW. Speaking as someone who abuses it. 

Leave it alone in PvE though. I like what it adds to build diversity there. 

I agree; I wouldn't mind them shaving down some stats for WvW but in PvE I'd leave it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

Celestial is boring, takes to long to kill with it. Run into one 1v1 and it's an easy disengage bc no one should be dumb enough to fight it.

Pretty one sided fight if you ask me, if it is taking forever for you to fight against someone who is full celestial then you are also using somewhat of a bunker build. 

If you are full glass there is no chance the fight will take forever because you would be dead.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, cgMatt.5162 said:

Celestial is boring, takes to long to kill with it. Run into one 1v1 and it's an easy disengage bc no one should be dumb enough to fight it.

I'd say the fact that roamers never have to commit to fights they might lose is a bigger problem than bunkers in roaming.  Maybe if it weren't so easy to walk away we could talk about balancing builds based on the assumption that both parties will finish the fight.  In my opinion, runaway builds are equally annoying.

[reddie.5861]

the dmg output from Cele is to high compare to full glass cannons.

raw dmg is little lower but if conditions are taken in i guess cele isnt far behind at all, yet u get everything else also 😄

 

remove it for all i care.

[Argamir.3651]

It's certainly broken in WvW (especially small scale), from what I've seen cele harbinger and specter are super strong as of now, not sure about scrapper post nerf but that one was ridiculous as well. The most obvious solution would be nerfing overall stats, but i'd also be open to them just nerfing the defensive properties (vitality/toughness/concentration/healing power) and keeping the offensive stats the same

[Hotride.2187]

12 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'd say the fact that roamers never have to commit to fights they might lose is a bigger problem than bunkers in roaming.

Its not a question of "might lose", its a question of a boring, pointless, waste of time fight.

I might lose vs a fa ele or a 1 shot mesmer too, sometimes I dont even register when I died. But I stay for those, because they are short and exciting fights. Not several-minute-long soul-destroying rotation of condi cleanses hoping the cele player will run out of stunbreaks/invulns before I lose patience and play too aggressively.

And dont be naive, if there are no builds that can run there will only be bunker builds, cele or otherwise. The only "glass" that I see roaming is builds that can disengage (unless you chase like a psychopath).

Edited April 15, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Its not a question of "might lose", its a question of a boring, pointless, waste of time fight.

I might lose vs a fa ele or a 1 shot mesmer too, sometimes I dont even register when I died. But I stay for those, because they are short and exciting fights. Not several-minute-long soul-destroying rotation of condi cleanses hoping the cele player will run out of stunbreaks/invulns before I lose patience and play too aggressively.

And dont be naive, if there are no builds that can run there will only be bunker builds, cele or otherwise. The only "glass" that I see roaming is builds that can disengage (unless you chase like a psychopath).

Like I said, if you want to balance out bunkers then you need to also force runaway builds to stay and fight.  You observe the same thing, no?  If you changed nothing but get rid of the ability to disengage endlessly, then everyone would play bunker.  So what happens if you remove bunkers?

[Dr Meta.3158]

If you are consistently losing to a person using celestial stats and you removed celestial from the game, you will still lose to that person but you'll have one less excuse in your repertoire. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 hours ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

If you are consistently losing to a person using celestial stats and you removed celestial from the game, you will still lose to that person but you'll have one less excuse in your repertoire. 

Hilariously untrue, 

You have a full glass boonbeast vs a celestial boonbeast, same skill level same knowledge celestial will always win.

Same goes with Mirage and Virtuoso.

[Hotride.2187]

56 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Hilariously untrue, 

You have a full glass boonbeast vs a celestial boonbeast, same skill level same knowledge celestial will always win.

Same goes with Mirage and Virtuoso.

I feel like ranger is the better example here, cause mesmer barely works on power. It requires such timing and spacing to do well, compared to auto attacks with cele or trailblazer... Ranger has a variety of strong power and condi roamers, but cele outsustains and kills them eventually.

As I've commented earlier, ele and mesmer are the only professions I can't really complain about running cele... the power variants are too high skill and on trailblazer they lack sustain. From my pov its understandable if you don't play the power/full condi builds.

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If you changed nothing but get rid of the ability to disengage endlessly, then everyone would play bunker.  So what happens if you remove bunkers?

I don't see a world in which the disengage potential will change. Most builds that can reliably disengage use short stealth in combination with decent mobility. Only a few builds disengage with pure mobility, usually war and thief (though thief disengages using stealth more often than just pure mobility). There is also SB using gazelle but those are very rare. Technically engi could chain superspeed, but those were rare and I think/hope they got gutted.

If you want that nerfed (personally I don't care, I often don't even finish downs after a 1v1) you can make a topic. For me cele enables low effort builds that are boring and repetitive to fight - its always play defensively to not run out of cleanses and so the fight takes 10 years. There are other types of low effort builds, but those die or kill you fast enough to not bother me.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I feel like ranger is the better example here, cause mesmer barely works on power. It requires such timing and spacing to do well, compared to auto attacks with cele or trailblazer... Ranger has a variety of strong power and condi roamers, but cele outsustains and kills them eventually.

As I've commented earlier, ele and mesmer are the only professions I can't really complain about running cele... the power variants are too high skill and on trailblazer they lack sustain. From my pov its understandable if you don't play the power/full condi builds.

I don't see a world in which the disengage potential will change. Most builds that can reliably disengage use short stealth in combination with decent mobility. Only a few builds disengage with pure mobility, usually war and thief (though thief disengages using stealth more often than just pure mobility). There is also SB using gazelle but those are very rare. Technically engi could chain superspeed, but those were rare and I think/hope they got gutted.

If you want that nerfed (personally I don't care, I often don't even finish downs after a 1v1) you can make a topic. For me cele enables low effort builds that are boring and repetitive to fight - its always play defensively to not run out of cleanses and so the fight takes 10 years. There are other types of low effort builds, but those die or kill you fast enough to not bother me.

I'd personally rather fight something that can't just walk away from any unfavorable matchup.  Cele counters thief and ranger pretty well and those make up 90% of the boring roamer meta.  So good enough I guess. 

[Kulvar.1239]

Celestial to most people is training wheels stats, or to test some builds without investing in a full set of gear.

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Celestial to most people is training wheels stats, or to test some builds without investing in a full set of gear.

Hey, so is stealth access, teleports, 1500 range and half the roamers you meet getting salty if you don't just drop dead off their rapid fire or stealth opener.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

People complaining cele gear r the one usually run meme 1 shot build and if they can't drop someone with their burst, they usually end up dying if they stay and fight.

Then they come to forum and complain. 😄

 

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

17 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'd personally rather fight something that can't just walk away from any unfavorable matchup.  Cele counters thief and ranger pretty well and those make up 90% of the boring roamer meta.  So good enough I guess. 

Exactly this. I am not into stealth gameplay. Cele has been the best counter for this 1 shot cheese build.

[Kulvar.1239]

20 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Hey, so is stealth access, teleports, 1500 range and half the roamers you meet getting salty if you don't just drop dead off their rapid fire or stealth opener.

Imagine the audacity of some people who not only stay alive, but hit back ! 🙂

[cgMatt.5162]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:29 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'd say the fact that roamers never have to commit to fights they might lose is a bigger problem than bunkers in roaming.  Maybe if it weren't so easy to walk away we could talk about balancing builds based on the assumption that both parties will finish the fight.  In my opinion, runaway builds are equally annoying.

Agreed, but also do not necessarily need a runaway build to disengage a fight vs cele because it still takes forever. Have done it on glassy classes without any problems as it should be recognized as a bad matchup that should not be fought.