When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[Downstate.4697]

Celestial by itself is not over the top.  The real problem is might and the ability to gain 750 power and condi damage rather easily. Might as a boon has too much of an impact on gameplay ever since the introduced concentration into the game. If it where up to me might access across the board would be nerfed and stacks would be 10 max. More realistically celestial needs about a 15% nerf to all its stats.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

And how do you know what people are running? ...I have been accused of running celestial when I was 80% marauder with 2 cav trinkets...it's safe to assume that 80% of claims in this thread are just from people getting outplayed than blaming gear and whatelse for their shortcomings as player

Cause I see the condi ticks I take, I see the damage I'm doing and I see the regen and barrier the opponent has. Its not hard to tell.

Also I'm usually talking to the players I duel.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Junkpile.7439]

7 minutes ago, hedap.5801 said:

nerfing a spec around one stat prefix 🤔 what could go wrong. 

 

revert celestial change 🙂

 

But then my double longbow celestial core ranger will be even more weaker.

[Norseman.4280]

Celestial is fine. It gives another option outside of the classic glass cannon, bunker, or condi builds. It makes the game more interesting. 
Celestial roamers are tough. That's the only threat they pose. But they can be beaten. It's a challenge rather than an easy kill. I'm good with that.

[Hotride.2187]

18 hours ago, Norseman.4280 said:

Celestial is fine. It gives another option outside of the classic glass cannon, bunker, or condi builds. It makes the game more interesting. 
Celestial roamers are tough. That's the only threat they pose. But they can be beaten. It's a challenge rather than an easy kill. I'm good with that.

With the exception of cele renegade (and I'm generous to exclude it), all cele builds feel like condi bunkers. I've fought some rangers and eles that did respectable power dmg, but the gameplay is still soak all dmg until your target runs out of cleanses and dies. You might as well be trailblazer, the only difference is where your tankiness is coming from (boon vomit with cele). At most it enables more specs to bunker and so provides "build variety" (if you want to call the same boon and condi vomit variety).

Edited April 3, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[DeceiverX.8361]

22 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Celestial by itself is not over the top.  The real problem is might and the ability to gain 750 power and condi damage rather easily. Might as a boon has too much of an impact on gameplay ever since the introduced concentration into the game. If it where up to me might access across the board would be nerfed and stacks would be 10 max. More realistically celestial needs about a 15% nerf to all its stats.

Honestly, it should have always just acted like vuln by being a % power/condi modifier.  Same with prot.

Concentration wouldn't even break this because then your celestial setup gains significantly diminished returns on damage, and actually has to put effort/investment into traits that spec more into the raw damage or sustain side to be threatening, rather than just optimizing whatever boons they can.  But this way it ends up being an exact-middle-ground choice.

Also enables better short-term use of boons for all-offense builds sacrificing utilities and traits etc. since they gain the least from stacking might thanks to its relative power per stack with high base power.  The same logic for protection applies to legitimate tank players.

[Bleikopf.2491]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

With the exception of cele renegade (and I'm generous to exclude it), all cele builds feel like condi bunkers. I've fought some rangers and eles that did respectable power dmg, but the gameplay is still soak all dmg until your target runs out of cleanses and dies. You might as well be trailblazer, the only difference is where your tankiness is coming from (boon vomit with cele). At most it enables more specs to bunker and so provides "build variety" (if you want to call the same boon and condi vomit variety).

Isn't that more a problem of power dmg being not very good compared to condi dmg?

[Salt Mode.3780]

21 hours ago, Norseman.4280 said:

Celestial is fine. It gives another option outside of the classic glass cannon, bunker, or condi builds. It makes the game more interesting. 
Celestial roamers are tough. That's the only threat they pose. But they can be beaten. It's a challenge rather than an easy kill. I'm good with that.

I don't know where this is going with considering celestial build benefits from all 3 of the subtype you just mentioned. 

Glass cannon if the build is able to have high might uptime, which glass cannon builds cannot sustain the boon for long duration of time. Bunker because it gives 4 defensive stats, Vit, Toughness, Healing, and Con, you are able to have high prot uptime from con as well as healing power boosts your regens and heals. Last is condi, adding expertise to celestial enables the condi output to be high especially paired with high might uptime. With 25 stacks of might you are adding on an additional 750 both power and condi.

As mentioned before, it gives as much concentration as full minstrels and as much condi duration as full trailblazers.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Isn't that more a problem of power dmg being not very good compared to condi dmg?

More of a problem with condi dmg scaling IMO. Even with cele stats it still does a lot of dmg once it starts stacking (i.e. when you run out of cleanses).

Trying to balance that is IMO a can of worms. Condi builds already need some tankiness to survive long enough, for the cleanses of the target to run out - since every build packs cleanses as much as is viable.

And if you buff power, players will start playing crap like soldiers gear. E.g. I already use some knight pieces vs d/p thieves since they otherwise shut me down fully. The choice is lose dmg or die.

IMO what should be hit is the boon uptime. You should not have perma vigor, regen, might and prot. Stability uptime is also increased by cele, making windows when you can get CCed smaller. But that is probably also a can of worms, since zerg supports run minstrel gear...

[Kozumi.5816]

22 hours ago, Norseman.4280 said:

Celestial is fine. It gives another option outside of the classic glass cannon, bunker, or condi builds. It makes the game more interesting. 
Celestial roamers are tough. That's the only threat they pose. But they can be beaten. It's a challenge rather than an easy kill. I'm good with that.

Then when they start to lose they press their 50 teleports and dashes and zone into a nearby tower. Yay WvW!

[Coldtart.4785]

Roamers have been running from fights since 2012 as well. Nothing to do with cele there.

[Kozumi.5816]

30 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Roamers have been running from fights since 2012 as well. Nothing to do with cele there.

They've only added tons more mobility since then, on top of basically making everyone immune to immob, cc, and cripple at all times.

[attractiveman.7164]

How about we don't nerf anything? Why is everyone's first response to getting dumpstered "nerf X plz anet"? How about you instead just accept that on occasion you're going to lose a fight.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

To be honest I'd sooner see more boonrips and corrupts added into the game. Instead of nerfing something, add more counterplay. 

[Zil.3071]

cele is good for the low skill player to have a decent chance to be involved. at real high end play, a proper tuned stat build will beat a jack of all trades.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

1 hour ago, Zil.3071 said:

cele is good for the low skill player to have a decent chance to be involved. at real high end play, a proper tuned stat build will beat a jack of all trades.

Definitely. Tbh I main thief so when I play cele it's because I'm looking for something different to the usual twitch reflex gameplay, sometimes I just want to chill and not think hard about stuff lol. Different isn't necessarily bad as long as it has counterplay and as long as optimised builds outperform the jack of all trades, which generally speaking it does. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[Wiggely.7320]

are we sure celestial gear is the cause, and not the effect?

This game is overflowing with boons, condi's stacking, effects that are stronger than the older effects of the same kind, and even newer ones on top. Heals, passive heals, regens, ticking heals. Passive condi's applied on everything, boons granted for free on even more.

Celestial is the one gear set that actually thrives on this bloat of effects. It's the set that can make most of that work together.
 

It used to be the jack of all trades but can't kill anyone on it's own... kind of gear.
I started playing at Vanilla, or however you call that here, and came back only recently.
There's a LOT more going on now, we all have so many effects it's crazy.

 

Personally I like being the jack of all trades, but the game is giving everything to everyone now, it seems.
Except for dedicated roles in group content, every build seems to have nearly everything.

So celestial becomes better and better...

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Wiggely.7320 said:

This game is overflowing with boons, condi's stacking, effects that are stronger than the older effects of the same kind, and even newer ones on top. Heals, passive heals, regens, ticking heals. Passive condi's applied on everything, boons granted for free on even more.

 

For squad play boon balls are an issue to anyone not in a boon ball. To roamers self boons are an issue when 1 on 1. That's not an armor stat set issue, its the amount of boons that can be pumped out and applied. The abilities nerfs from last year made that worse even if it did increase the value in sustain in both squad play and in 1 v 1s. But nerf's to sustain also just further increase the boon ball squad game play advantage because they pump out all the rest. We need address the amount of boons you can either have or the stacks of them. That way it applies to both boon balls down to havoc and roamer game play.

As far as CC skills not doing any damage, would roll them back out with a least half of the damage output of what they had. WvW will never be balanced because 50 people can hit one and kill them before they could blink. In a 1 v 1 it might have been a bigger deal but as soon as you go 1 v 4+ its not the damage of the the ability that also had a CC its the fact that their auto-attacks all landing alone would probably get you. So would error on the side of fun over wet noodle. 

[Charybdis.3695]

I just don't get why some players want WvW to be as limited as PvP.  There are enough options to deal with builds, especially those that use full stats like celestial... 🥱

[Riba.3271]

Honestly, I think OP is right. Mostly due to 40%+ boon duration you get from cele.

 

Id still like to see concentration stat changed from 15 -> 21 concentration per 1% boon duration in WvW to nerf minstrel, but it would adjust cele at same time.

 

 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

On 3/30/2022 at 7:58 AM, Clownmug.8357 said:

Why, what's wrong with it?

Not all classes and specs can abuse it now like Necro, Mesmer or Ele for starters. Although I havent seen any annoying cele eles for a while now.
 

[Clownmug.8357]

17 minutes ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Not all classes and specs can abuse it now like Necro, Mesmer or Ele for starters. Although I havent seen any annoying cele eles for a while now.
 

 

Huh? So it's under-utilized yet needs to be nerfed?

[Kozumi.5816]

2 hours ago, Echo.6310 said:

I just don't get why some players want WvW to be as limited as PvP.  There are enough options to deal with builds, especially those that use full stats like celestial... 🥱

Too many options is a BAD thing. PvP is actually pretty cool and interesting while wvw might as well be playing D2 pvp.

[coro.3176]

6 hours ago, Zil.3071 said:

cele is good for the low skill player to have a decent chance to be involved. at real high end play, a proper tuned stat build will beat a jack of all trades.

In playtesting with cele condi engi, I'd say it's about equal to dedicated condi stat combos in terms of effectiveness. Less health + toughness, but more healing + boon duration works out to about the same survivability. Less condi damage but more power/precision works out to about the same outgoing damage. This suggests to me, that at least with the skills & traits I use on my build, cele is balanced.

If other builds are getting too much value out of it, that sounds like a problem with specific coefficients & boons, not the stat combo.

[DeceiverX.8361]

8 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

To be honest I'd sooner see more boonrips and corrupts added into the game. Instead of nerfing something, add more counterplay. 

Boon denial - ESPECIALLY in the form of corruption - is not particularly counterplay while boons are single-handedly carrying builds to such absurd degrees and with how much they're spammed by almost every skill and effect.  It's counter-building, and turns the game into glorified rock-paper-scissors ASSUMING this boon denial is somehow weak to the pitiful number of otherwise-trash boonless builds in the game.  Because even boonless/low-boon builds get hit by something like weakness from a single stack of might or cripple from a random swiftness source and suddenly they take huge hits to usability despite putting zero investment in them.

 

There aren't really many outcomes using this ideology, and none of them are good.

1.)  It's not enough and we end up still having the same issue and people double-down on stacking even harder.

2.)  They modify skills and traits to deal with boons, and then all build diversity funnels into those skills and traits if they're any good because of how innate boons are to virtually every trait and skill at this point, and if they're not good, it stays the same.  So an overwhelming majority of builds still suck without crazy hard dependencies, or we end up with even bigger kit volatility by matchup where boons are undesired but can't be avoided and get spam-countered.

3.)  They go totally overboard and we end up in a CC-fiesta-mode where well-timed boons designed to counterplay other builds and exploit cooldowns are just too weak to use and strictly act as liabilities.

 

Nope, needs to simply be reduced access and lower duration.  Boons - things which literally make you more of a stat-stick - should primarily come at a cost in some fashion and absolutely should not be even remotely permanent.

Similarly making them gain increased value by acting as stat % modifiers in building deep means well-placed corrupts and strips actually mean significantly more per cast, giving the actual usage of corrupts better skill expression and playmaking value rather than simply "spam as much as possible and grind the enemy down to make our stat stick bigger than theirs."  Timing and delivery then means something, and corrupts and strips can be independently evaluated on a limited per-class basis, which can also require larger depth of investment than simply "play spellbreaker or run necro" a la opting into Curses or taking Bountiful Theft over Trickster on thief.

Adding more rock-paper-scissors to existing rock-paper-scissors does not solve the problem of adding more options to the game.