I feel excluded from EoD because Soo Won meta event is too hard

[Vayne.8563]

9 hours ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

overestim

 

9 hours ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

 

I'm willing to bet that I'm more "average" than either you or Vayne, and I don't even look at LFG. If I happen to be in a map doing something, I'll follow along and do the meta if I happen to come across it, but honestly I have no clue whether or not it's going to fail or not. I just do it until I get bored, and then leave.

 

Example, I followed a group (not in-group myself) in Cantha attacking some sort of shields with turtles yesterday. It was fun, i did a couple of events with them and then at about  the 45 min mark, it was feeling a bit too long, so I went and did other things. I think you severely overestimate what the "average" player knows about.

 

side note: how exactly would i gauge if the meta is going to be successful or not by looking at LFG?

My knowledge comes from running a casual guild since launch that has always had at least a hundred people in it, and almost always has over 300 people in it, or even over 400.  Over ten years I can assure you it's not the same 300 people either.  Our core 100 people is probably the same for most of that time, but the others are just people riding through, playing a bit, trying stuff out and I know that the vast majority of this guild has never even done a dungeon, unless some of us carried them through. They stay away from fractals. They do whatever pops up in front of them without an specialized knowledge, if they find it fun.  Then they move onto something else. 

 

Metas most likely to be successful are ones with squads, often (but not always in voice) that break the squad into subgroups where each group has the require boons (including alacrity and quickness if possible).  It's a way to get more bang for your buck. If that is going on, the map is more likely to succeed.

That said, even that's not a guarantee. My wife was on one of those maps yesterday and failed with four minutes or so left to go, and she's beaten in any number of times with organized groups.  But seeing the subgroup set up, is a pretty good sign you're on a map that's likely to succeed anyway.

[Sobx.1758]

38 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Because people who are doing events always read map chat, while they're fighting to survive?  Some people even have map chat switched off entirely btw.  They see a bunch of stuff being said, but that doesn't mean they can read or absorb it while doing something else. Hell I can't usually do that unless I'm expecting to have to.  This is the problem with experienced players. They EXPECT that information coming in so they assume everyone does.

 

I can listen in voice with a commander but I can't follow map chat and do events at the same time, very often anyway.

Doesn't need to be a map chat. And it's not like a lot of commies explain things before the action, right? 😄

But of course, whatever is being said, you can make up a random excuse, while claiming that's exactly what the average player is, which is based on nothing more than the outcome you're already set on. Either way, at that point it's not about "not knowing" or having the information somehow hard to find or having to go to the outside sources, but about not wanting to do x (and to be clear what I'm talking about: do basic things like reading, using lfg or joining squads in general, to list a few obvious ones).

As I said: there's a difference between "I don't know" and "I don't want to". You're clearly hard set on pretending that people "don't know and don't have a way to know" and apparently will say whatever it takes to just push that idea no matter what. Like how you've just ignored in the post you quoted and what was being a direct response to your post and a claim that "people don't know about subgroups or possibly alac", when all it takes is joining a group once and they already know about it, even if it means having a vague idea that can easly be expanded on. Meanwhile you just completely ignore what was being said and responded with "not everyone has map chat and people might not read it in the middle of the action". Except the mentions about subgroups and alac take place way before "the action", so not a great excuse.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Doesn't need to be a map chat. And it's not like a lot of commies explain things before the action, right? 😄

But of course, whatever is being said, you can make up a random excuse, while claiming that's exactly what the average player is, which is based on nothing more than the outcome you're already set on. Either way, at that point it's not about "not knowing" or having the information somehow hard to find or obstructed, but about not reading or not wanting to do x (like reading, using lfg or joining squads in general, to list a few obvious ones). As I said: there's a difference between "I don't know" and "I don't want to". You're clearly hard set on pretending that people "don't know and don't have a way to know" and will say whatever it takes to just push that idea no matter what. Like how you've just ignored in the post you quoted and what was being a direct response to your post and a claim that "people don't know about subgroups or even alac", when all it takes is joining a group once and they already know about it. Meanwhile you just completely ignore what was being said and responded with "not everyone has map chat and people might not read it in the middle of the action". Except the mentions about subgroups and alac take place way before "the action".

The average player is probably the wrong word. I'd say if you combine the demographics that understand this game to the level we're talking about (in this case seeing at a glance whether the event will fail or not), and you take all the players in the game and test them on it, more players will not know this than will.

There's obviously no average player, so let's say the bulk of the playerbase instead. That includes middling to not so good players.

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The average player is probably the wrong word.

Cool, I agree, so then maybe it's time to stop using wrong words. And, still, not ignoring what you've quoted.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashantara.8731]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"most of the time". So, you hav found one of the few exceptions. Great job.

My advice: read the current UI event info on the right-handed side of the screen to see what you are supposed to be doing now, then you won't require information on what you were supposed to do that you didn't do which resulted in the event to fail. 😁

All fun aside, I get what you mean. GW2 has a history of being bad at explaining mechanics to its players, so one has to rely on the players figuring it out and sharing that information.

[Astralporing.1957]

25 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

My advice: read the current UI event info on the right-handed side of the screen to see what you are supposed to be doing now, then you won't require information on what you were supposed to do that you didn't do which resulted in the event to fail. 😁

90% of the time you will still learn nothing, because the thing that you "failed" was either not in those info, or you never noticed that you haven't done it "good enough" (or in the "right way") for the game.

Quote

All fun aside, I get what you mean. GW2 has a history of being bad at explaining mechanics to its players, so one has to rely on the players figuring it out and sharing that information.

Pretty much this. And with majority of players not using third party sources for information, that becomes an issue.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Vayne.8563]

53 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Cool, I agree, so then maybe it's time to stop using wrong words. And, still, not ignoring what you've quoted.

Context is really important. 

Some guy comes along and says, I know if a meta in the new zone is going to fail simply by looking at the LFG.  He knows that. He thinks most people know that. I say the average player casually and it's not the wrong word there. Because I'm talking about a specific situation. Of all the players playing in that situation, the average wouldn't be able to tell in my opinion. And that was ALL I was arguing.

It's when people start pointing to words and saying but what does average mean without looking at what I was replying to is when the issue begins.

Most people are fairly casual about metas and this meta is pretty different from anything else in the game, in both difficulty and knowledge required.  Raiders and high level content player will have no problem figuring out what's going on pretty fast. I didn't. 

But the average player probably doesn't get into squads that break into subsquads most of the time, nor do the expect the kind of difficulty the last meta in EoD contains. At the end of the day, I'm not writing a college thesis here. I'm using words casually in a casual setting. 

If we had a conversation about what the average player was, it would be a completely different conversation.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

90% of the time you will still learn nothing, because the thing that you "failed" was either not in those info, or you never noticed that you haven't done it "good enough" (or in the "right way") for the game.

Pretty much this. And with majority of players not using third party sources for information, that becomes an issue.

While this might be true, I have to admit that I do enjoy figuring out new encounters. It's exciting! Having everything served on a silver platter isn't quite as enjoyable for it often takes away a lot of the fun.

Also, once you know the core mechanics, it makes it a lot easier to explore and decipher new encounter mechanics. The whole point on this thread is that a lot of players complaining about the DE meta can't be bothered to learn those core mechanics (like CC) in order to adept to this new event and learn its mechanics, which is 100% on them and has nothing to do with the meta, or don't know how to play their profession properly to deal decent DPS, which does require you to consult third-party websites to see which builds work best and how their rotation goes (and that, IMO, is indeed a flaw with the game).

Edited May 23, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Dante.1508]

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You're 100% right. I can easily see whether a squad will be successful. I seriously doubt most people can, or even know that's an option. Most people don't read forums or reddit, they play the game. They don't look at other sites. They see a meta, they do it, and probably get carried most of the time. This isn't a problem for me. I've done that meta a bunch of times, without much problem. I've succeeded far more than I've failed it. My success rate is much higher than 60%.

I also have every core legendary weapon, all but one of the HoT legendary weapons, and even one of the EoD legendary weapons. What I or you can or can't do really isn't the issue here. It's what happens to the average player who just strolls into the zone for the first time, completely unaware what's going on, who then wastes two hours fails and rage quits when it happens a few times.  

I generally can tell if we are a fail or not..

Easy tell is if the teams struggle to kill and if it takes the three teams a long time to kill the early champs might as well move one you know the dps is a fail..

[Vayne.8563]

50 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

I generally can tell if we are a fail or not..

Easy tell is if the teams struggle to kill and if it takes the three teams a long time to kill the early champs might as well move one you know the dps is a fail..

Sure but you're here reading the forums all the time.  A decent percentage of my guild hasn't been there  yet and has no idea it's supposed to even be hard.

[The Boz.2038]

 

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Some people even have map chat switched off entirely btw.  

Warning! Fithy elitist beliefs incoming!
If you don't know how a meta works, and you have no way of learning it because your map chat is disabled, I... don't want to do the meta with you. I don't want you on my squad. I don't want you on my map. All of the tools to learn the things have been provided to you, and you chose not to use them. You lost all rights to complain about any outcome if you refuse to do the minimal step in the right direction in the form of "maybe don't mute map chat while facing something you don't understand, lol".  

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This is the problem with experienced players. They EXPECT that information coming in so they assume everyone does.

No. That's not a problem with experienced players. If anything, the problem is experienced players explaining things, and then being called elitist for it. Case in point: This entire thread.

[Vayne.8563]

33 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

 

Warning! Fithy elitist beliefs incoming!
If you don't know how a meta works, and you have no way of learning it because your map chat is disabled, I... don't want to do the meta with you. I don't want you on my squad. I don't want you on my map. All of the tools to learn the things have been provided to you, and you chose not to use them. You lost all rights to complain about any outcome if you refuse to do the minimal step in the right direction in the form of "maybe don't mute map chat while facing something you don't understand, lol".  

No. That's not a problem with experienced players. If anything, the problem is experienced players explaining things, and then being called elitist for it. Case in point: This entire thread.

I never called anyone elitist. I also have never disabled map chat.

But some people do.  And they don't know any reason why they shouldn't. And your attitude won't change the fact that you don't get to choose who's next to you in the open world.

[AgentMoore.9453]

23 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Warning! Fithy elitist beliefs incoming!
If you don't know how a meta works, and you have no way of learning it because your map chat is disabled, I... don't want to do the meta with you. I don't want you on my squad. I don't want you on my map.

Isn't this a perfect example of why the Dragon's End meta should have had an instanced version? Because I don't think you're a filthy anything for wanting a successful run or the ability to put together a group of people who share your mindset and playstyle, but open world maps and events are not usually where this happens at the level expected by the DE meta. ArenaNet set everyone up for frustration purely in how they designed this encounter.

People who like a challenge and have their efficiency worked out have to play LFG tango and roll up early to get their clears, often still carrying people outside their groups and being called 'toxic' or 'elitist' in the process. Casual players are blindsided by a difficult event that most of them can't complete even knowing the mechanics and are frequently subjected to 'get off my map' and 'pay you to leave' animosity.

ArenaNet mushed two very different groups of players together, and from what I can tell no one is benefiting from that.

[Fuchslein.8639]

The thing i read about this the most is, that it's not a problem that it's dificult in the meaning, it can't be dificult. But the DE meta is part of the Story, not just a Meta like the Worm. It has a Story behind it, which everyone knows. In the case of TT, i couldn't say what the story behind him is, because it was never relevant to the main-story.

Of course, this thread is someone whining about an hard event. But most people i heard talk ingame about this, are talking about the story-aspect. I thought, from the title the "i feel excluded", that TE was also talking about this.

In my opinion OP does super exaggerates his opinion, just because an event is hard and not meant for everyone dosn't ecludes you. That would mean that WVW, PVP and a lot of other stuff in this games need to be changed drasticly so no one gets excluded., And he got all this likes because he hates against EOD, what seems to be a trend and a lot of people did not read the OP.
BUT also in my opinion, i don't see the logic behind anets thinking, putting an objectively hard Meta on the End of an Map and an Story. Like the DS-Map is an corner-point of the story, and is a doable event for everyone.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Isn't this a perfect example of why the Dragon's End meta should have had an instanced version?

I don't think so. Since OW PvE is lacking in any spring-board type of content that requires that tiny little bit more organization or mechanical approach, an open world event like the DE meta is fully needed, and shouldn't be hidden away in an instance where people who need to find it most will never see it.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

People who like a challenge and have their efficiency worked out have to play LFG tango and roll up early to get their clears, often still carrying people outside their groups and being called 'toxic' or 'elitist' in the process. Casual players are blindsided by a difficult event that most of them can't complete even knowing the mechanics and are frequently subjected to 'get off my map' and 'pay you to leave' animosity.

It's even worse than that. Few days ago my wife ended up on a DE map, where commander got massively flamed by players all around. Can you guess the reason for that?

It's not because said commander tried to organize the squad. It was because they've put that squad in LFG. Which, to many players, meant that "now noobs will come in, and we're gonna fail".

Imagine that - a situation where a certain group of players in OW are so negatively set against other players that they immediately flame someone just for putting an LFG for that map up. A situation that goes against some very core values Anet wanted for open world. A situation that Anet themselves have caused by this map design.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I don't think so. Since OW PvE is lacking in any spring-board type of content that requires that tiny little bit more organization or mechanical approach, an open world event like the DE meta is fully needed, and shouldn't be hidden away in an instance where people who need to find it most will never see it.

You can say so, but that simply cannot be put together with your earlier desire of not wanting players that are not up to your standarts on your map. Which one is more important to you? The current situation where some people want to treat an OW map like an instanced content just cannot go on.

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You can say so, but that simply cannot be put together with your earlier desire of not wanting players that are not up to your standarts on your map.

The two can easily be put together. Here, watch this:
"I want to not play with trolls that put down aviators on chests, it's annoying." - Does that statement insinuate that Auric should become an instance? Especially knowing that South is a popular troll camping ground? No, and it'd be nonsense to claim otherwise.

The "dunno what to do, map chat is off, lol" crowd is fairly small. The amount of "don't want to play with them" is outweighed by very many other feelings, such as "OW needs a challenge like this".

 

Finally, I have now beaten the meta just about thirty times, at least half of those in LFGs and map PUGs. Not a single time have I seen people flame the commander for putting the group on LFG or shooing people off the map. "We'll be doing the meta. Please join up and contribute." is the closest I've seen to 'an ask of the map'.

[Gorem.8104]

22 hours ago, Vaen.2605 said:

The average casual player doesn't have an hour+ to waste on an event that may likely fail, and reward poorly even if it doesn't.  This is poor design, especially considering why many of us are playing GW2 over the other more time-consuming options.

 

I love the fight, but will never go back to it.  In fact, it's pushed me away from the game.

Good point that, for a good year after I had come back from a six year break I was having a lot of fun playing GW2 again, playing through the expansions I'd missed and living worlds, being there for the return to (but it actually being my first time) Enjoying the story and gameplay all through Hot, lw3, PoF, lw4. Mostly ignored the Eod Story itself but the 2 maps were great, both the concert map (which has more npc's then the Main city of Cantha, lol) And Drizzlewood is great - all while spending hours and hours in wvw. 
Then EoD released, I was excited to be there for an expansion release for a game that I had returned to and had been having loads of fun in.... and its been the least I've logged in since, EoD pretty much killed the games hype for me. the DE meta was so un-welcome in open world, it should have been instanced content from the start. Why they thought, and still do think for some reason, that this is what players want, is a very very confusing concept to me. The LFG tool and way open world works in GW2 does not make this meta work at all. (Well that, and there very disappointing changes to wvw so far only making it worse since they talked about it being a "cornerstone).
Truly, I have stopped having fun playing gw2 in part due to an expansion release, might be time for another six year break hah. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[yoni.7015]

25 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

The LFG tool and way open world works in GW2 does not make this meta work at all

For a lot of players it works just fine. 

[Hotride.2187]

Well since they moved turtle acquisition to not need finishing the DE meta, IMO not much need to work on it still. Just 1 more type of dead-end content in the game, like dungeons, DRM, forging steel... (conquest, wvw roaming, etc.) - now you have semi-hardcore OW to add to the list.

For me the positive was that I started using arcdps (just lol that you can't add it as an addon) and learned to do OK dps. Similar to how crafting a legendary got me into wvw, the game required something of me and I learned to enjoy something else in the process. I won't touch the meta ever again, ofc, nor in all likelihood (r)aids.

The negative is adding non-casual content to frustrate casual players, but I guess that can happen everywhere. Just yesterday some (new) person was asking "how do we do this" in a dead AB map (that I entered while the meta was failing, going for the TM). I wrote on map chat to use LFG before the meta, but that implies knowing when the meta starts, what a meta is, and so on.

I still think the encounter design is fine, but everything else leading into / around it is very poorly made. Should've been an instance like dragonstorm, then do whatever you want with the encounter. Even lock it so that its publicly available only at specific times (and always available for private squads). But don't have 1.5 hours lead-up to an event that you know failed in the first 2 min.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Dante.1508]

I just do my story now and ignore DE meta.. Its nearly always a fail and a waste of my gaming time.

[TexZero.7910]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I just do my story now and ignore DE meta.. Its nearly always a fail and a waste of my gaming time.

You're doing it wrong then.

I've done nearly 50 runs, 47 of them have been succesful. The 3 that weren't were all pre-nerf and balance adjustments to the fight.

 

You need to be on map, getting organized and listed in LFG during the preperations phase. You ideally want everyone on the map to do at a minimum 5 events and each region to get to High readiness. Then during the assualt phase all you need to do is evenly split up between east and west and let a small group of 5-10 take care of center. Once east and west are done and everyone is back at the dragon crystal phase split up evenly again into groups of 5-8 people killing mobs and 1-2 people catching orb and tossing them onto the pylons.

When fighting Su Won prioritize damaging her, then any thorn hearts. As is right now there's enough damage in the game to almost completely ignore her tail phases, however if your group dps is low you'll need to deal with that too. Split phase(s) split evenly...kill roughly the same time. Collect loot.

[AgentMoore.9453]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

an open world event like the DE meta is fully needed, and shouldn't be hidden away in an instance where people who need to find it most will never see it.

I see Astralporing tried to address this, but let me ask it in a different way.

You think a significant amount of people 'need' (or would benefit from) OW content as difficult as the DE meta, but you also don't want to be on the same map as them - which you typically have no control over in the open world. Wouldn't the obvious solution be an instanced version of the meta with good scaling that the story directs you to? Seems to work fine for Dragonstorm.

What I'm getting at here is that the combination of (and eventual conflict between) casual and invested players was never necessary and is not having the positive effect you're hoping for. The view that throwing casual players at challenging OW content will somehow harden them or make them enjoy challenges is about as unrealistic as throwing a bunch of raiders at Queensdale-level content and wondering why they're bored. If you're still uncertain about that, look up the many threads about Hearts And Minds (And Migraine), Triple Trouble, Serpent's Ire, and other previous attempts at introducing players to heightened levels of coordination and difficulty. There's a saying about doing something repeatedly and expecting a different result...

Tough and easygoing content have always had their places in the game, and I promise that people know where to go looking for them when they want one or the other (or both). There's a reason ArenaNet typically does not mix these things together and Trahearne had it figured out all the way back in personal story: This won't end well.

[Ashen.2907]

14 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

While this might be true, I have to admit that I do enjoy figuring out new encounters. It's exciting! Having everything served on a silver platter isn't quite as enjoyable for it often takes away a lot of the fun.

Also, once you know the core mechanics, it makes it a lot easier to explore and decipher new encounter mechanics. The whole point on this thread is that a lot of players complaining about the DE meta can't be bothered to learn those core mechanics (like CC) in order to adept to this new event and learn its mechanics, which is 100% on them and has nothing to do with the meta, or don't know how to play their profession properly to deal decent DPS, which does require you to consult third-party websites to see which builds work best and how their rotation goes (and that, IMO, is indeed a flaw with the game).

To be fair, one can learn how to do decent dps on their character without going to a 3rd party site. It requires reading the trait lines, and applying some small amount of critical thinking....Probably wont get you to fantastic dps, but decent.