I feel excluded from EoD because Soo Won meta event is too hard

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I will admit to that behavior, but it was when i was farming camp counselor (defend 250 camps).

It was being said about Veteran creature daily spots, you don't get camp defender there 😉 

23 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

I'm starting to get the feeling you're just advertising your twitch stream 🙂

...or, if you read the previous posts, there was someone saying they'd be very interested in seeing the stream/vod. Interestingly enough, there's no acknowledgement or any comment from that person about it now.

Either way, he's just showing his clear rates, not sure how that hurts anyone.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Ruru.1302 said:

Another clear. That makes 15 successes, 1 loss since the 15th patch. I'm not sure how the majority of people keep failing. I have the log and vod from the latest clear if anyone wants to see it.

They keep failing because they don't know how to CC or how their class can actually deal decent damage.

Just met a Dragonhunter today who claimed he had no CC. A Dragonhunter. On Greatsword and equipped with Bane Signet and Dragon's Maw. Who has played Guardian since release... Claimed he had no CC.
 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[TehCookie.7143]

On 4/1/2022 at 4:42 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

While that's true, that specific feeling can be diminished or removed completely by understanding that by dying in wvw you lose nothing. Also a lot of the time people will just "let you be" on "daily" spots like the ones related to "veteran creature slayer".

You lose time. I play games to have fun and WvW isn't fun. I'll never have a legendary weapon because of it and it sucks, but not as much as WvW does.

[Ruisen.9471]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

They keep failing because they don't know how to CC or how their class can actually deal decent damage.

Just met a Dragonhunter today who claimed he had no CC. A Dragonhunter. On Greatsword and equipped with Bane Signet and Dragon's Maw. Who has played Guardian since release... Claimed he had no CC.
 

You can miss CC for so much reasons.

3 CC bars today.   One was broken, but boss instantly phased to wisps so we got no exposed (this seems to happen alot for some reason).

Second CC bar came up while the whole squad was at tail.   If you're already at tail its too late to run back to the head to CC it.

Boss seems to change sides ridiculously often now since last patch.

You can overcome these problems with enough DPS, but an open world meta that relied on using DPS to overcome bad luck is not very good design.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Ruisen.9471

[Ashantara.8731]

48 minutes ago, Ruisen.9471 said:

You can miss CC for so much reasons.

3 CC bars today.   One was broken, but boss instantly phased to wisps so we got no exposed (this seems to happen alot for some reason).

Second CC bar came up while the whole squad was at tail.   If you're already at tail its too late to run back to the head to CC it.

Boss seems to change sides ridiculously often now since last patch. [...]

I wasn't referring to Soo-Won's breakbar, which should be easily broken with the EMP (that also has some range), but the bosses' breakbars during the split phase, which 100% rely on player skill. If you lose a lot of time there (especially in combination with low DPS), a fail is imminent.

There is no excuse these days to not know how to deal CC on your character's profession -- they've introduced a training area for that in EoD.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, TehCookie.7143 said:

You lose time. I play games to have fun and WvW isn't fun. I'll never have a legendary weapon because of it and it sucks, but not as much as WvW does.

And you're free to make that choice, you don't need legendary gear to play what you want anyways.

[Rongaron.9213]

just done fail run with very great organized squad 50 people, what rekt us at 7 %? THAT DAMM RNG TAIL OF COURSE! INSTEAD OF NERFING IT JUST REMOVE IT!
 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Rongaron.9213

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Hardstuck had a run where they used Necros running Blood Magic and minions only.

[Astralporing.1957]

35 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Hardstuck had a run where they used Necros running Blood Magic and minions only.

Yeah, builds capable of performing at 15k+ dps in actual fight. It would be great if average OW pugs were running builds as good as those.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

pugs were running builds as good as those.

Did you just say that Minion Necro is a good build?

[Gibson.4036]

 

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Did you just say that Minion Necro is a good build?

I think they just said most players' builds are worse.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Sobx.1758]

32 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I think they just said most players' builds are worse.

Then those players need to go back to the basics, which is reading their skills, traits and maybe even attributes with understanding and then make their semi-informed choices to make a semi-coherent build. Not meta, not optimal, not great. Just semi-coherent. And lets not pretend that's somehow too much to ask, we're not talking about introductory/starting content here, this is the last meta event of the latest set of maps comming from 3rd expansion.

If for some reason they still can't do that, there's plenty of players ingame and on the forum to help them, as well as a lot of resources to literally scrape whole builds along with the "how to" instructions. If they still don't want to for some reason, then that's still nothing more than their own choice that they're free to make.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Cuks.8241]

It looks to me players are learning the fight. I had the worst rng fight today ever and we still beat it with 3 mins and change to spare. We had 3 breakbars and couldn't utilize any (2 during the tail, 1 just before the phase transition) and she was moving around all the time, like crazy all the time, I think during the 40-20% phase we were all just running left and right for 2 mins straight.

The change on whirlpools helps, you can actually get people out of them. The extra 5 buff stacks during escorts help a lot since pretty much everyone had the 10th stack (just give all the stacks during the escorts). 

But the thing I noticed and most likely helped the most. People didnt down or die nearly as much as they used to. And that is huge for dmg. Only 2 weeks a go every insta down mechanic had like 10+ people on the floor. During the last phase when people panicked everyone was dying left and right. Now barely any full deaths over the whole run. Was it luck? Maybe.

[Debesyla.7102]

I can't seriously understand an argument for making it easier. Games without challenge and without need to learn aren't fun. It's good as it is now. 

[Erise.5614]

10 minutes ago, Debesyla.7102 said:

I can't seriously understand an argument for making it easier. Games without challenge and without need to learn aren't fun. It's good as it is now. 

The problem is, it ain't challenging. No new strategies were figured out and there was not much to learn or improve since the second time I tried. 

There has been nothing for me to learn or improve for me in about 15 attempts. Yet most pugs are still lost. There's no point to have that as an open world meta. It would be something different if mechanics would fail. If it was merely about explaining what to do in chat or some such. But it's just about everyone needing to be faster. Which means pugs will continue to mostly fail and gatekeeping remains the only way to have a good time during the fight. 

It fractures the community more and leads to negative experiences. ANet just doesn't seem to have the AI under control. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Sobx.1758]

28 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The problem is, it ain't challenging. No new strategies were figured out and there was not much to learn or improve since the second time I tried. 

There has been nothing for me to learn or improve for me in about 15 attempts. Yet most pugs are still lost. There's no point to have that as an open world meta.

The point is for the general playerbase to try and improve. Just because "it's nothing new for you", doesn't mean it's nothing new for others and there's nothing to improve on. There clearly is room for improvement for a lot of players and if the events won't start requiring improvement, there's no reason for the players to improve.

28 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Which means pugs will continue to mostly fail

But pugs can and do succeed -both there and in strikes. We can't be completely sure whether or not people are slowly improving, but anet can. Too much rng needs adjusting? No problem, I agreed there. But just nerfing events for the sake of players getting easier rewards is counterproductive and misses the point.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The point is for the general playerbase to try and improve. Just because "it's nothing new for you", doesn't mean it's nothing new for others and there's nothing to improve on. There clearly is room for improvement for a lot of players and if the events won't start requiring improvement, there's no reason for the players to improve.

Just means it's

1.  Punishing me for the skill of others.
2. a decent format to test average community skill. But the worst possible format to teach.
   Feedback is diluted. You have impact of a few percent making it extremely easy to overlook your own personal mistakes.
   And despite combat feedback being poor in general, this fight takes it to the extreme by just removing hit markers and damage numbers entirely every now and then for no reason.

The meta is abysmal at doing what you suggest it should be doing. It's just collective punishment and creating unnecessarily terrible experiences without even doing so much as an attempt at teaching players. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Just means it's

1.  Punishing me for the skill of others.
2. a decent format to test average community skill. But the worst possible format to teach.
   Feedback is diluted. You have impact of a few percent making it extremely easy to overlook your own personal mistakes.
   And despite combat feedback being poor in general, this fight takes it to the extreme by just removing hit markers and damage numbers entirely every now and then for no reason.

1. It's not punishing anyone. Group events depending on group performance doesn't seem to be anything out of ordinary.

2. Feedback is diluted, except there's plenty of people telling others what and why they should do. Except then there's also a group of players that will respond to that as an offense for some reason, because "don't tell me what to do". There's plenty of feedback, instructions, opportunities to learn and people willing to help. If you don't want to interact with anything or anyone then stay with the soloable parts of this mmorpg. Overally, this is the point -and a good one, considering it's the last meta of 3rd expansion of the game- where people can see whether or not something is lacking from their gameplay efficiency (mind that this still has nothing to do with "playing meta" or "doing everything perfectly", since for some reason that's what some people on this forum claim it's equivalent of) in comparison to the content the game can and does offer.

Quote

The meta is abysmal at doing what you suggest it should be doing. It's just collective punishment and creating unnecessarily terrible experiences without even doing so much as an attempt at teaching players. 

And the better would be what? Nerfing everything because people "feel excluded" if they can't get every reward in the game without looking into improving? If that's so abysmal, then what exactly would be good? How about making these suggestions instead of trying to nerf anything remotely harder?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And the better would be what? Nerfing everything because people "feel excluded" if they can't get every reward in the game without looking into improving? If that's so abysmal, then what exactly would be good?

Designing the event to actually teach instead of pointless race spectacles. 

Like the crystals. I was genuinely confused why they didn't play a part during the boss. They are taught well throughout the pre event chain. No effort throwing it at a location. Splitting up and coordinating. Finishing several ones close to one another. The battle could have added a grand finale to that mechanic in some way.

Just do it faster isn't teaching. It's just testing mastery with this specific event. It's set up to have you fail or at least drag your squad down several times over while punishing other players for not excluding you from their squad / map. 

The problem isn't existence of challenge. A decent challenge is fantastic.

But arbitrary difficulty isn't challenge. You aren't challenged to do better. You are challenged to exclude people and let them fail on their own. The meta tests skills that are inappropriate to be tested during an open world meta. And doesn't push mechanics and things far enough that can be taught and tested during a long open world meta event chain. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[xenon.3264]

i stopped doing eod as meta. in the same time of eod i do a t4 fractal run and earn more gold and i'm 100% sure that my skill means something. oh btw i unlocked the turtle 8 days after eod release. was the moste stupid waste of time and gold since like forever i never use it and when i do it's boring to drive. 

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Designing the event to actually teach instead of pointless race spectacles. 

The event itself doesn't need to teach, the game teaches the players throughout the previous content. The story at least gives some hints what will be useful. Why would the meta event suddenly need to validate people skipping explanations and learning process because they didn't want to learn until now?

Quote

Like the crystals. I was genuinely confused why they didn't play a part during the boss. They are taught well throughout the pre event chain. No effort throwing it at a location.

Yeah, so then that great design of unskippable tutorials is supposed to be constantly replayed by everyone simply because some of the players don't want to learn from other, already available content or even during the event itself (nothing wrong with failing at first in order to learn and succeed later btw) -and that's somehow not punishing players that were willing to learn?

Quote

Just do it faster isn't teaching. It's just testing mastery with this specific event. It's set up to have you fail or at least drag your squad down several times over while punishing other players for not excluding you from their squad / map. 

Pretty much already responded to that in my previous post: Overally, this is the point -and a good one, considering it's the last meta of 3rd expansion of the game- where people can see whether or not something is lacking from their gameplay efficiency (mind that this still has nothing to do with "playing meta" or "doing everything perfectly", since for some reason that's what some people on this forum claim it's equivalent of) in comparison to the content the game can and does offer.

Quote

The problem isn't existence of challenge. A decent challenge is fantastic.

Well, we agree on something.

Quote

But arbitrary difficulty isn't challenge. You aren't challenged to do better. You are challenged to exclude people and let them fail on their own. The meta tests skills that are inappropriate to be tested during an open world meta. And doesn't push mechanics and things far enough that can be taught and tested during a long open world meta event chain. 

How is this an arbitrary difficulty? You think you can't learn during the actual event because... what exactly? No, people that see they're failing are challenged to do better. Obviously, except the ones that instead of trying to improve, prefer to stay on the forum and keep asking about the nerfs because they want the reward now.

Also not to forget about the initial point -notice, how your initial post I was reponding to was this:

Quote

The problem is, it ain't challenging. No new strategies were figured out and there was not much to learn or improve since the second time I tried. 

There has been nothing for me to learn or improve for me in about 15 attempts. Yet most pugs are still lost. There's no point to have that as an open world meta.

Apparently you think there's no point to have that meta, because there's nothing for you to learn or improve from it. But as I said, there is a point and that point -again- is not necessarily for you to improve, but for some of the other players to improve. If you don't need to improve, then good job, it doesn't mean that suddenly makes the event pointless. The players that want to improve, will. The players that want to help are already there and have been for a long time. Learning from failing is also learning. People missing absolute basics need to stop trying to skip the learning process and jump right into "latest content for latest rewards". From what I see, this event does have a point.

And btw, from that last quote (which was actually first post in this chain), it seems there needs to be some consensus in your post -it can be either "not challenging" or "in need of more tutorials", hardly both.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Serephen.3420]

On 4/4/2022 at 10:48 AM, TehCookie.7143 said:

You lose time. I play games to have fun and WvW isn't fun. I'll never have a legendary weapon because of it and it sucks, but not as much as WvW does.

That is subjective. 

[LKEY.9567]

Oh my god, I love this topic.

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The event itself doesn't need to teach, the game teaches the players throughout the previous content.

On the contrary, the game does next to no teaching whatsoever. It does try to teach a few basic things (like the infamous dodge tutorial, or, in EoD, the breakbar and combo fields one), but those aren't the key to this event. The buildcraft and dps are, and about those, the game does not teach you anything at all. All that stuff you're supposed to learn on your own. And, frankly, if someone didn't improve in that regard throughout the core and two expansions, expecting this to change in the third expansion is... well, there's that one saying about repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different reaults.

In reality, all the game does is just throwing bigger and bigger requirements at you to see at which point you will fail and go home. Except, again, by now they should already know what the breakpoints for different percentages of community are. They have been testing this for years. So, i really fail to see any point in this except actively trying to drive part of the game population away.

[Erise.5614]

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The event itself doesn't need to teach, the game teaches the players throughout the previous content. The story at least gives some hints what will be useful. Why would the meta event suddenly need to validate people skipping explanations and learning process because they didn't want to learn until now?

I mean. For one. The story is literally unskippable. A major design flaw in of itself. 

And the results speak for themselves. The event didn't change anything. No one is suddenly motivated to learn. It's not designed to create such a feeling. 

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, so then that great design of unskippable tutorials is supposed to be constantly replayed by everyone simply because some of the players don't want to learn from other, already available content or even during the event itself (nothing wrong with failing at first in order to learn and succeed later btw) -and that's somehow not punishing players that were willing to learn?

I mean... the current alternative is you do random stuff until the boss battle begins. Getting rid of all pre events entirely would improve the frustrations and lessen the issues with the fight.

But as it stands it is teaching something useless before then requiring completely different skills while still using up the full time for everything. That's just an incredibly cheap attempt at turning the argument against me while simultaneously

misunderstanding the point^^

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Overally, this is the point -and a good one, considering it's the last meta of 3rd expansion of the game- where people can see whether or not something is lacking from their gameplay efficiency (mind that this still has nothing to do with "playing meta" or "doing everything perfectly", since for some reason that's what some people on this forum claim it's equivalent of) in comparison to the content the game can and does offer.

They can't. That's the issue. The more people the less consistency you experience, the less you can distinguish your own impact without third party tools and the more obfuscated the games feedback about your gameplay efficiency is.

Players can't see whether or not something is lacking in their gameplay is the problem. The game tests skills that do not communicate well in this format. Which prevents self reflection.

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How is this an arbitrary difficulty? You think you can't learn during the actual event because... what exactly? No, people that see they're failing are challenged to do better. Obviously, except the ones that instead of trying to improve, prefer to stay on the forum and keep asking about the nerfs because they want the reward now.

Difficulty does not mean the same as challenge. Challenge means something that requires effort and tests your ability. Difficulty means something hard to deal with. Causing hardships. 

You can have challenging content without experiencing extended hardship. Especially when those hardships are not your fault. 

I have, again and again, criticized specific mechanics and dynamics of the fight. You just choose to ignore those in order to attack my character. 

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Apparently you think there's no point to have that meta, because there's nothing for you to learn or improve from it. But as I said, there is a point and that point -again- is not necessarily for you to improve, but for some of the other players to improve. If you don't need to improve, then good job, it doesn't mean that suddenly makes the event pointless. The players that want to improve, will.

*have already done so. It's not like the game is lacking either challenging or difficult content. Both exist plentiful. 

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The players that want to help are already there and have been for a long time.

Exactly. And yet, the population numbers on difficult content are unsustainable. The results speak for themselves. There may be small pockets of lovely communities who do just fine for themselves. But these kinds of communities are not capable of changing the larger player base. Either they are missing community management tools or have issues reaching players or something else makes it impossible. 

But it's not happening at significant scale. 

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Learning from failing is also learning.

But the fight is only delivering collective feedback and has several poorly designed features that have nothing to do with the challenge which make learning harder. See above and in my plentiful comments about it. 
The fight is making it really hard to learn from a failure. Which is why we see so little change in success rates and repeated nerfs. The overall population isn't learning from those failures. Not due to be lazy or any of those cheap excuses. But due to poor design. Of the encounter itself. As well as the combat feedback systems (aka, information you about how well you are doing right now)

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

People missing absolute basics need to stop trying to skip the learning process and jump right into "latest content for latest rewards". From what I see, this even does have a point.

If that's your point then ANet needs to enforce that or offer better tools for excluding people.
I disagree with that notion. But even if that is your point the event is still poorly designed. It's still poor at providing feedback and it doesn't push people to learn the basics first and it makes it deliberately hard to exclude certain types of people. Open world makes gatekeeping deliberately hard. 

So, once again. The event is not doing what you want it to. It's not doing what you claim it does. It could have been designed to do that. But it wasn't. 

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And btw, from that last quote (which was actually first post in this chain), it seems there needs to be some consensus in your post -it can be either "not challenging" or "in need of more tutorials", hardly both.

As pointed out above. A challenge requires effort and tests your skills. A difficult encounter just causes hardships.

It's not challenging. It's difficult. Which can be something some people are looking for. It's a valid thing to enjoy. 

But the format of the content (open world meta), the design of the boss fight itself (tight, hard enrage. Mechanics, AI) and the difficulty are mismatched.

All three aspects can be changed in several ways to solve most if not all issues with the fight.

But in combination the fight was and still is poorly designed. It's content so bad it has a very real chance to cause mid to long term harm if ANet doesn't get their kitties together. And at least personally, I have lost faith that they are capable of fixing the actual fight itself with balance patches. Meaning they would need to try and tweak some of the other attributes (soon) or give it the Chak treatment. 

Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that old open world content is still the highest populated content in the game. For 10 years most players enjoy a lot of their time doing that kind of content and happily pay to keep the game afloat.

Why is there even a need for drastic change to that? Why up difficulty sharply and risk antagonizing those players? Isn't that an unnecessary risk?

I do mean this as honest question.

Isn't is selfish to demand a sudden and steep increase in skill just because you hope for more of the content you yourself enjoy most? 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Erise.5614