Linken.6345 Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Legend of Rogue.5394 said: I realistically do not enjoy PvE anymore.... Like I really am bored with it. Not having fun anymore so I go to WvW and just farm blobs. Well then your clearly not the intended audience for that content. So why even comment in this thead? 4 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithrilos.8036 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said: Noone is trying to force people into Raids. This thread is about the "I can't deal damage because this/that is too complex" reason some people use to justify why they aren't Raiding, it's not a "take this build and now go and raid". It's just telling people that if complex rotations were their problem now these builds are more popular. The whole title of this topic " you have no excuse to not do raids" - *caugh* *caugh* maybe use a better set of words then. Edited April 13, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036 5 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zohane.7208 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 "You have no excuse not to get into raids now"..... oh I still have lots of excuses left! Like "I don't want to", for example. 6 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tukaram.8256 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 I have no interest in raids. Builds and damage have nothing to do with my lack of interest in it. Also I have no idea who or what does virtuoso or mechanist - and do not care. They still have nothing to do with my lack of interest. 😎 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNotMatthew.1058 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 5 hours ago, Mithrilos.8036 said: The whole title of this topic " you have no excuse to not do raids" - *caugh* *caugh* maybe use a better set of words then. It's true it could have been worded better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchslein.8639 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) On 4/12/2022 at 6:50 AM, Sena.2761 said: Eh, I don't know. I've never done one and until EoD strikes I never wanted to do any 10 man content. I lead those strikes daily now and have considered maybe making an LFG for the first one, VG I think it's called? But I don't know mechanics or specific roles unique to it, plus aren't these things largely organized on Discord now? It was really fun leading Strikes since they were new and everyone was learning together, but these are mostly solved and most people with the experience and know-how to do them have sequestered themselves within Discords, so I probably wouldn't get anyone able to explain the finer details a Wiki read wouldn't give me. Also I've heard they take like 2 hours per Wing, whatever that is? That's a bit more than I really wanna commit. I'll just stick to T4s and Strikes. You don't need to highly organize stuff. There are organized groiups called statics, which save you time in searching for people.But you don't need this. And no, when you know the mechanics and stuff, a wing don't takes 2h, 5h, ect. all these stranges numbers people bring up in these forums... Also Wings are called the the places where the, mostly 3, bosses are located. W4 is the wing that most beginners tackle first, since it is extremely easy, except for the last boss, since the bosses do not have many mechanics that can make the whole group wipe. Personally, I think Wing 1 is still the best place to start, because it's where you learn raids the best, with mechanics, teamwork, how to skip annoying mechanics, what dmg means, what cc means, ect. ect. But if you only want to kill bosses successfully, W4 with Cairn, Mursaat and Samarog is the best. For a mechanic-overwie, i recommend Mukluk. He has really nice and easy videos about all raid-bosses and more with everyting you need to know. Raids are not so far from strikes, strikes are not for nothing meant as stepping stone for those. And when you can have no problems with Strikes like Boneskinner, raids should be easy for you. And please, don't believe all things you "hear". This goes for everything. This is a really bad habit in life, to trust what other people say whitout thinking or researching for yourself. Edited April 13, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 On 4/11/2022 at 3:29 PM, NorthernRedStar.3054 said: Virtuoso and mechanist steamroll damage with low intensity rotations. Will probably get nerfed soon, but until then this is as easy as it's gonna get. The real reason people don't join is lack of interest; It had nothing to do with builds. 4 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: The real reason people don't join is lack of interest; It had nothing to do with builds. Also, the more peoples required to do some content the more time consuming it can be to have everyone ready. Raids are nice to do with a premade of people that all know what to do and can focus on playing. However, remove those 2 conditions and it can quickly become an inescapable swamp. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 46 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said: Also, the more peoples required to do some content the more time consuming it can be to have everyone ready. Raids are nice to do with a premade of people that all know what to do and can focus on playing. However, remove those 2 conditions and it can quickly become an inescapable swamp. There is also the fact that legendary armor is the only thing worth chasing in raids; If you don't like the environment you wont go in. I for example am choosing to go through WvW or PvP because I prefer those kind of environments. There just isn't enough incentive to get me or those I play with into the content; There's around twenty of us... we just.. I dont know there's no drive for that. It lacks the carrot 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: The real reason people don't join is lack of interest; It had nothing to do with builds. Just like OP is wrong claiming (not sure if that's what he's actually trying to claim, maybe it's a case of bad wording) some specific build solves every reason for people not wanting to raid, so is your claim about people having a single reason for not playing x content. We know for a fact some people complain about not being able to join it "because build/rotation too hard/intense/easy/whatever". And that's probably who OP directs his post to. Edited April 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firebeard.1746 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 On 4/11/2022 at 5:05 PM, Tren.5120 said: You're confusing LI Builds that do terrible DPS (like Minion Reaper - i.e. the lower eschelon of viability) with LI Builds that do competitive DPS - i.e. the upper eschelon of viability. People didn't want LI builds because they were known for underperforming. That attitude was based on the numerical data backing the performance of those builds - i.e. parses from raids as well as on Golems (best case scenario parse). If a LI build is going to top the DPS meters, then I don't think anyone would ever have an issue with it. The problem was not how intense they were; it was how they performed. The "LI" aspect of those builds was completely irrelevant. Envy is the only reason why someone would reject a LI build that performs well. Basically, people who stigmatize and reject it simply because they decided to main the class that isn't benefitting from such a built (see: WotLK Arcane Mages in WoW developed such a reputation, as did TBC Destruction Warlocks... we all know about "Sunwell" - or, at least, every mage player did). I do agree that some of these rotations are completely off-putting to some people. This isn't a GW2-specific issue, either. Lots of people in FFXIV completely avoided Summoner due to how ridiculous the rotation was, and in EverQuest people would choose to play Mage over Necromancer due to easier management and less rotational load. In WoW, people chose Arcane even after Fire and Frost were buffed because it was known for being a laughably easy rotation (lots of complaints when Arcane was basically top DPS spec with 4 buttons or something like that). And yes, I think it's completely valid for a raid group to kick someone playing e.g. Minion Reaper when they could play Condi Scourge. Why waste a spot on someone who - even if they're the best ever - will be outperformed by someone who is merely "good enough" on a different eSpec or Profession. People owe you your human respect. They do not owe you "nice." They are not obligated to waste more time than necessary simply to make someone feel good playing an underperforming build simply because they don't want to play piano while raiding. It sucks for those people who want something more relaxing so they can... actually enjoy playing the game... But a raid group should not suffer for your preferences. That's not how things work. 1) whenever an LI build exists that tops charts, hardcore players whine. Whether in disc or on these forums it's the same. So i'm not really sure raiders would be happy with people raiding on LI builds, even if they were competitive. 2) I used signet of illusions instead of mirror images in an stm chrono build and got flack from someone once, even though the cardinality of clones generated by the utility was higher, therefore giving me higher uptime. So i'm not even sure if some raiders in this game are flexible enough to allow people to play less intense. And really that's part of the appeal. They want it to be super intense and if the difficulty goes down, it's an affront to them. It might not be all raiders, but i'm not sure it's enough to stop the stupidity that created community gating in the first place. I mean anet really could rebalance numbers in a way where most dps comes from autos and only really skilled players can crunch out an extra 10-30% dps, but they haven't, so i think they're really into high intensity builds too. 4 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: Just like OP is wrong claiming (not sure if that's what he's actually trying to claim, maybe it's a case of bad wording) some specific build solves every reason for people not wanting to raid, so is your claim about people having a single reason for not playing x content. We know for a fact some people complain about not being able to join it "because build/rotation too hard/intense/easy/whatever". And that's probably who OP directs his post to. True but I am assuming that most just don't have any interest in the content. As it has no real purpose; There is nothing that you can experience there of any value right? Not for the amount of effort and time of which one might not have. Im not saying this for me; But It's what I've heard quiet a few times. For me its simply I see the content as lacking in both reward and value. 4 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchslein.8639 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 3 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: True but I am assuming that most just don't have any interest in the content. As it has no real purpose; There is nothing that you can experience there of any value right? Not for the amount of effort and time of which one might not have. Im not saying this for me; But It's what I've heard quiet a few times. For me its simply I see the content as lacking in both reward and value. The lack of rewards is true ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 8 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: True but I am assuming that most just don't have any interest in the content. As it has no real purpose; There is nothing that you can experience there of any value right? Not for the amount of effort and time of which one might not have. Im not saying this for me; But It's what I've heard quiet a few times. For me its simply I see the content as lacking in both reward and value. This entire post beautifully conveys the incongruous mess of superstitions surrounding raids. So, "most just don't have interest"? Unsourced. Just autobehindal extraction in pure form. Most people I've talked to expressed great interest in them, providing that time available to become raid ready and capable becomes free. Raids "have no real purpose"? Again, based on nothing. It's aspirational content. It leads to legendary armor. It exists as a form of gameplay that requires coordination and organization. But, eh, no **real** purpose, right? Raids have "nothing you can experience there of any value"? Again, wrong. Some of the best story beats in the game, some of the coolest fights ever made for GW2, a culmination of several HoT storylines... "Not for the amount of effort and time". Ah. There we go. Effort and time. So, effort and time are a factor, but cheap LI builds, which massively cut down the effort and time required, are not relevant at all? Beatiful logic right there. "But it's what I've heard", but haven't experienced for yourself. But will happily reapeat it. Over and over, in every raid thread. Not that you know what you're talking about. But just so everyone knows, here's what you know, right? "Content lacking in both reward and value" is, at least, the closest to right. Kinda. Other than legendary armor and the random ascended drop here and there (tiny bit less than one per full 1-7 run), raid rewards compare unfavorably to Drizzlewood. Again I see the exact same posts the last time someone tried to make raids more accessible. Make a post about a specific raid issue? Get drowned in nirvana fallacy replies of "this doesn't solve all the problems", fifty feet deep. P.S. "I don't want to" is not an excuse. It's a statement of fact. You're free to not want to, you're always free to not engage in content you don't wish to engage in. But excuses such as "I can't afford the gear/time to practice" are neatly done away with thanks to the cheap LI builds that are finally getting more popular now. If, knowing that, you still don't want to raid, sure, go ahead, don't raid. Maybe it really isn't for you. But there's a fair amount of people who will now choose to raid, because the content is suddenly significantly more accessible to them. 1 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: True but I am assuming that most just don't have any interest in the content. As it has no real purpose; There is nothing that you can experience there of any value right? Not for the amount of effort and time of which one might not have. Im not saying this for me; But It's what I've heard quiet a few times. For me its simply I see the content as lacking in both reward and value. That's right, you're assuming. Apparently OP making an assumption is a nono, but you making one is fine? This is why I've started my post you just quoted with "Just like OP..." -to point out you're doing a very similar (same?) thing and both are wrong if what you're trying to do is find "one general reason for everyone". What's the value of limited-player-number instanced content? For example, easier controlled/stable environment and your actions having bigger impact on the outcome of the encounter than they have while fighting OW bosses, where in many (most?) cases you can literally afk and tag the boss at a last seconds to get participation. Overally if you "just don't want to" then I'm not sure anyone has a problem with that, you're free to not want to play them. But if someone is turned away from those encounters because they've read too much misinformation that's spread largly by people never participating in raids, then threads like this one (although clearly worded differently 😄 ) can help them get over their fears and doubts. As an example, one person in this very thread was repeating that it's impossible to start raiding for player like him, that the content is gated, rewards should be moved/added somewhere else and all those similar repeated misconceptions -and now they're playing raids 🤷♂️ Edited April 14, 2022 by Sobx.1758 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 8 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: This entire post beautifully conveys the incongruous mess of superstitions surrounding raids. So, "most just don't have interest"? Unsourced. Just autobehindal extraction in pure form. Most people I've talked to expressed great interest in them, providing that time available to become raid ready and capable becomes free. Raids "have no real purpose"? Again, based on nothing. It's aspirational content. It leads to legendary armor. It exists as a form of gameplay that requires coordination and organization. But, eh, no **real** purpose, right? Raids have "nothing you can experience there of any value"? Again, wrong. Some of the best story beats in the game, some of the coolest fights ever made for GW2, a culmination of several HoT storylines... "Not for the amount of effort and time". Ah. There we go. Effort and time. So, effort and time are a factor, but cheap LI builds, which massively cut down the effort and time required, are not relevant at all? Beatiful logic right there. "But it's what I've heard", but haven't experienced for yourself. But will happily reapeat it. Over and over, in every raid thread. Not that you know what you're talking about. But just so everyone knows, here's what you know, right? "Content lacking in both reward and value" is, at least, the closest to right. Kinda. Other than legendary armor and the random ascended drop here and there (tiny bit less than one per full 1-7 run), raid rewards compare unfavorably to Drizzlewood. Again I see the exact same posts the last time someone tried to make raids more accessible. Make a post about a specific raid issue? Get drowned in nirvana fallacy replies of "this doesn't solve all the problems", fifty feet deep. P.S. "I don't want to" is not an excuse. It's a statement of fact. You're free to not want to, you're always free to not engage in content you don't wish to engage in. But excuses such as "I can't afford the gear/time to practice" are neatly done away with thanks to the cheap LI builds that are finally getting more popular now. If, knowing that, you still don't want to raid, sure, go ahead, don't raid. Maybe it really isn't for you. But there's a fair amount of people who will now choose to raid, because the content is suddenly significantly more accessible to them. Alright hows this for simple and straight to the point There are more people uninterested in raids than there are interested The game directly contradicts raiding as a concept due to its selling pitch and basic design it was never designed with raids in mind you are the smallest minority of players who gatekeep due to legendary insights which happens all the time the raids are neither challenging, rewarding or worth doing the only game mode smaller than you is PvP which suffers from gatekeeping as well but its more most wont deal with the toxicity that is wihtin the SPvP scene. (ITs not that bad but whatever) And finally strikes were made, and are more accessible and seemingly popular ironically. Which isn't saying much so at this stage it seems like content that is NOT worth developing for. Simple enough. 3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: That's right, you're assuming. Apparently OP making an assumption is a nono, but you making one is fine? This is why I've started my post you just quoted with "Just like OP..." -to point out you're doing a very similar (same?) thing and both are wrong if what you're trying to do is find "one general reason for everyone". What's the value of limited-player-number instanced content? For example, easier controlled/stable environment and your actions having bigger impact on the outcome of the encounter than they have while fighting OW bosses, where in many (most?) cases you can literally afk and tag the boss at a last seconds to get participation. Overally if you "just don't want to" then I'm not sure anyone has a problem with that, you're free to not want to play them. But if someone is turned away from those encounters because they've read too much misinformation that's spread largly by people never participating in raids, then threads like this one (although clearly worded differently 😄 ) can help them get over their fears and doubts. As an example, one person in this very thread was repeating that it's impossible to start raiding for player like him, that the content is gated, rewards should be moved/added somewhere else and all those similar repeated misconceptions -and now they're playing raids 🤷♂️ See above.https://devtrackers.gg/guild-wars-2/p/23bc89af-bobby-stein-on-the-future-of-raids-a-reddit-comment-by-him This was a comment made during Icebrood saga; Which was clear then that they had no plan or idea about its future. Now that we're into end of dragons with no mention of raids at all (Strikes got talked about) it's clear that strikes are the future of that kind of content. Like dungeons were killed by fractals; Raids have been murdered by strikes. Which more people in general seem to be interested in anyway. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted April 14, 2022 Share Posted April 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: See above.https://devtrackers.gg/guild-wars-2/p/23bc89af-bobby-stein-on-the-future-of-raids-a-reddit-comment-by-him This was a comment made during Icebrood saga; Which was clear then that they had no plan or idea about its future. Now that we're into end of dragons with no mention of raids at all (Strikes got talked about) it's clear that strikes are the future of that kind of content. Like dungeons were killed by fractals; Raids have been murdered by strikes. Which more people in general seem to be interested in anyway. Please, can you clarify which part of my post you're exactly trying to respond with this link? Because I really don't know. You're linking me to a post saying "not enough players" to the issue of "how do you know why they're not playing". Nothing in that post clarifies anything about that and as such your previously made assumptions remains being an assumption, while trying to sweep everyone's reason as being one and the same remains being a blind guess. They're not talking about raids, but they're talking about CM strikes, which were specifically said to be on "raid level". So as far as we see, this is a renamed/revamped attempt at raid encounters with major difference being smoothing out the entry point, where you go from soloable story content to 10-player-normal-encounters to CM-raid-level-encounters. That and the lack of the "3-4 encounters per wing", which made it harder to pick which one you want to actually participate in, unless you had an opener or were able to find one. I don't see a problem with that, it targets specifically what was listed by some as problematic on this very subforum and as I said in the past, I agree with this approach. Edited April 14, 2022 by Sobx.1758 1 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: Alright hows this for simple and straight to the point There are more people uninterested in raids than there are interested Irrelevant. You can still reach those interested, but prevented, and increase overall participation. Don't see how this engages any of the previous points. 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: 2. The game directly contradicts raiding as a concept due to its selling pitch and basic design Err... what? Huh? 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: 3. It was never designed with raids in mind It was never designed with mounts in mind, either, and look where we are right now: best mounts in the genre. Nice. 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: 4. you are the smallest minority of players who gatekeep due to legendary insights which happens all the time The game gatekeeps the LI, not raiders. What a lol point to make. Also, fairly sure there are more raiders than active PvPers. 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: 5. the raids are neither challenging, rewarding or worth doing Says the dude that never even touched them. 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: 6. the only game mode smaller than you is PvP which suffers from gatekeeping as well but its more most wont deal with the toxicity that is wihtin the SPvP scene. (ITs not that bad but whatever) Ah, so it isn't the smallest minority? Okay. Is there a point to this? 12 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said: 7. And finally strikes were made, and are more accessible and seemingly popular ironically. Which isn't saying much so at this stage it seems like content that is NOT worth developing for. Simple enough. Strikes were made and... huh? Not getting your point here, chief. You still have not engaged with the main point of the topic at hand, which is predictible: If a player was theoretically interested in raids, but didn't engage because they thought they couldn't manage the cost of a build or the execution of a rotation, those reasons are now gone. Please feel free to engage with the raids now using these fairly cheap and simple to execute builds that allow you to play optimally with minimal mental load, letting you focus on the raid mechanics and commander's callouts. Any other reason that might have prevented you from engaging with raids is irrelevant for this topic. Just like the thread before: if a player was theoretically interested in raids, but was intimidated by the air of toxicity that people who don't raid spread about the game mode and raiders therein, don't be! The raid community is very welcoming to new players, and trainings are organized by dozens of guilds and groups on a daily basis. Do not listen to those who think the grapes are sour anyway, they want to see the game mode die for selfish reasons. 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 10 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: Irrelevant. You can still reach those interested, but prevented, and increase overall participation. Don't see how this engages any of the previous points. Err... what? Huh? It was never designed with mounts in mind, either, and look where we are right now: best mounts in the genre. Nice. The game gatekeeps the LI, not raiders. What a lol point to make. Also, fairly sure there are more raiders than active PvPers. Says the dude that never even touched them. Ah, so it isn't the smallest minority? Okay. Is there a point to this? Strikes were made and... huh? Not getting your point here, chief. You still have not engaged with the main point of the topic at hand, which is predictible: If a player was theoretically interested in raids, but didn't engage because they thought they couldn't manage the cost of a build or the execution of a rotation, those reasons are now gone. Please feel free to engage with the raids now using these fairly cheap and simple to execute builds that allow you to play optimally with minimal mental load, letting you focus on the raid mechanics and commander's callouts. Any other reason that might have prevented you from engaging with raids is irrelevant for this topic. Just like the thread before: if a player was theoretically interested in raids, but was intimidated by the air of toxicity that people who don't raid spread about the game mode and raiders therein, don't be! The raid community is very welcoming to new players, and trainings are organized by dozens of guilds and groups on a daily basis. Do not listen to those who think the grapes are sour anyway, they want to see the game mode die for selfish reasons. You saying that the raid community is welcoming is identical to people saying we have the least toxic community in the mmo market. Which is wrong. Dragons end proved our community is no better than the others; The raid community has never given me a good expierence even if I wasn't on the receiving end of their Ire. I've done raids just not the ones that came out with PoF I went through the HoT ones when they came out; Because back then I was into that kind of content. As to what is the point of you being a minority? Simple. There is no VALUE in continuing development; Just like its the same for Spvp; The sub-group that plays the content is far too small to offer any sort of monetary compensation for A-net to be bothered to continue development. Strikes were made to replace raids, which is why they are getting content and raids are not which is the same that happened with fractals and dungeons. Difference is they were more open about axing dungeons then they are about raids. Word of the wise, from someone who has been around the block when it comes to games. If the developer purposefully does not commit one way or another, it means they have no plans or interest in going forward with whatever it is. If the developer does nothing for the content over the course of years, it means they have no plans (WvW falls into this as well and despite their clamoring's of alliances/restructuring I don't have faith it'll amount to jack.) If the developer makes a similar mode to yours with all the bells and whistles its likely a replacement, not a teaching method. Anet historically is all about abandoning content for the sake of simplicity and accessibility; Raids didn't have it and don't have it and no matter what they do to builds this wont change. This is not due to the community itself but due to the perception of gamers in this current time. Most don't want to spend hours learning a fight or learning how to run with others; And guild wars 2 as a game promotes you to be "a lone wolf" as most everything else doesn't require you to party up to overcome challenges. Again Dragons End showcases what happens when the majority of the community is thrusted into that type of encounter/environment. Dragons end likely illustrated to A-net that no matter what they do, the broader community will never want or seek out raiding. The builds were part of it if you want to get into it; I have many new guildies who don't understand how build craft works. However I think on a more broad level the reason raids are not done more is because the game basically goes against what a raid is all the way up until Icebrood saga where Strike missions and such become apart of the overall gameplay loop. And even there we see push back. I never said I wanted the game mode to die, ideally we should all be getting content. You, me, the over world Pve Players; Do you know how badly I wanted a new WvW map in old cantha? Or the old echovald and jade sea? Terribly. It won't happen because of how the community reacted to desert and edge of the mists; We will never get a new map or revamped maps or new content on that level. I know this and understand why. Again as I said in another post; I wouldn't want to develop for the community either. Unfortunately raids fall into that as well where because of the push back and the numerous attempts at reinforcing the idea and what raids are; Both through strikes and now the final encounter in dragons end ... I just don't see A-net continuing. They give up more than they persevere and no matter what ya'll do to the cost of builds, or how welcoming you are or even how fervently (Admirably) you defend your preferred game mode.. That doesn't change how the community by and large view and understand it. The saying goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." So no, I don't have anything against raiding or raiders. I actually do enjoy them maybe not the A-net version (It's more what I remember from when I did them). But I did mythic raiding in WoW back in legion and so on, it's fun and can be fun. I just don't feel this games community overall would and will bother with it. I've met so many players who have gone through the story, done all the living world and still don't even know what break bars/cc/mechanics there are in the core maps? (Negligible at best) and you're telling me its builds holding them back? No it's their inability and lack of drive to learn. You can hand some pleb a meta build; You can teach them how it works. You can show them how to press the shiny buttons. If they DONT MOVE or dont DODGE or don't bother with the mechanics then there is no hope for them. And Unfortunately those type of players outnumber the rest of us by pretty big margin. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge shot Grif.6450 Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Ohoho I have -PLENTY- of reasons to stay away lol. 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 On 4/14/2022 at 10:05 AM, The Boz.2038 said: This entire post beautifully conveys the incongruous mess of superstitions surrounding raids. So, "most just don't have interest"? Unsourced. Just autobehindal extraction in pure form. Most people I've talked to expressed great interest in them, providing that time available to become raid ready and capable becomes free. Raids "have no real purpose"? Again, based on nothing. It's aspirational content. It leads to legendary armor. It exists as a form of gameplay that requires coordination and organization. But, eh, no **real** purpose, right? Raids have "nothing you can experience there of any value"? Again, wrong. Some of the best story beats in the game, some of the coolest fights ever made for GW2, a culmination of several HoT storylines... "Not for the amount of effort and time". Ah. There we go. Effort and time. So, effort and time are a factor, but cheap LI builds, which massively cut down the effort and time required, are not relevant at all? Beatiful logic right there. "But it's what I've heard", but haven't experienced for yourself. But will happily reapeat it. Over and over, in every raid thread. Not that you know what you're talking about. But just so everyone knows, here's what you know, right? "Content lacking in both reward and value" is, at least, the closest to right. Kinda. Other than legendary armor and the random ascended drop here and there (tiny bit less than one per full 1-7 run), raid rewards compare unfavorably to Drizzlewood. Again I see the exact same posts the last time someone tried to make raids more accessible. Make a post about a specific raid issue? Get drowned in nirvana fallacy replies of "this doesn't solve all the problems", fifty feet deep. P.S. "I don't want to" is not an excuse. It's a statement of fact. You're free to not want to, you're always free to not engage in content you don't wish to engage in. But excuses such as "I can't afford the gear/time to practice" are neatly done away with thanks to the cheap LI builds that are finally getting more popular now. If, knowing that, you still don't want to raid, sure, go ahead, don't raid. Maybe it really isn't for you. But there's a fair amount of people who will now choose to raid, because the content is suddenly significantly more accessible to them. even the OP knows that they will nerf it, so anyone, who actually do this will end up with a useless character again it plays exactly the same as a gear grinder, but without any of the benefits this isnt just poor balance, it is simply broken 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNotMatthew.1058 Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 3 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said: even the OP knows that they will nerf it, so anyone, who actually do this will end up with a useless character again it plays exactly the same as a gear grinder, but without any of the benefits this isnt just poor balance, it is simply broken Builds capable of 20-something k DPS with a few buttons at worst existed for a while now. Scourge, Mirage are the best examples. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash.2681 Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 On 4/14/2022 at 7:54 PM, Thornwolf.9721 said: Alright hows this for simple and straight to the point There are more people uninterested in raids than there are interested Pure assumption by you, no one has data about that The game directly contradicts raiding as a concept due to its selling pitch and basic design Debatable at least. Upon release we had dungeons being a pretty though challenge for most. Also the first implementation of fractals was challenging content for those days- old lvl 50 certainly wasn't for everyone. it was never designed with raids in mind See number 2. Also it's quite normal that developers of online games add additional content over time, so I don't see any issue here. you are the smallest minority of players who gatekeep due to legendary insights which happens all the time Another flat assumption coupled with the typical bias towards raiding ppl. Yes, there are groups asking for LI/KP. And there's also lots of trainings, training communities and squads that demand nothing at all. the raids are neither challenging, rewarding or worth doing your personal opinion, not relevant at all. the only game mode smaller than you is PvP which suffers from gatekeeping as well but its more most wont deal with the toxicity that is wihtin the SPvP scene. (ITs not that bad but whatever) assumption again. won't comment on that desperate try to make the pvp scene look less toxic than the raiding community And finally strikes were made, and are more accessible and seemingly popular ironically. Which isn't saying much so at this stage it seems like content that is NOT worth developing for. Simple enough. So content that is seemingly more popular ist not worth developing? Ok... See above.https://devtrackers.gg/guild-wars-2/p/23bc89af-bobby-stein-on-the-future-of-raids-a-reddit-comment-by-him This was a comment made during Icebrood saga; Which was clear then that they had no plan or idea about its future. Now that we're into end of dragons with no mention of raids at all (Strikes got talked about) it's clear that strikes are the future of that kind of content. Sobx.1758 already said everything what's to say about this. Like dungeons were killed by fractals; Raids have been murdered by strikes. Which more people in general seem to be interested in anyway. And yet dungeons are played everyday and raid lfg is as full as ever... Yes, the OP isn't worded very well. In fact it is a bit snarky and quite pointedly but everyone following the endless discussions on this forum about how hard raids are, how unfair it is that the average GW2 player "can't get into them", how unfair it is to gate legendary PvE armor behind it, etc. etc. should be able to understand its intention. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Rainbow.6142 Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 (edited) I command Raid sometime. I just Lfg roles, I don't ask kp or exp. For some reason, Deimos has been challenge doing this way. Every other wing, group I make clear it easily enough. Once in a while we get tank running 1250 toughness and tries to flak people whoever have more than 1250 toughness. I just simply tell them that this is pug with no kp check and if you didn't know what to expect, quit calling yourself experienced. They flame and leave :D. Edit : Raid can be toxic. People's attitude is just rotten sometime. That's why I bought tag. I run "Chill run". I put it on squad message that "lets have fun and do your best but Don't greed dps and fail mechanic". People mostly love it and its very nice experience this way for me. Edited April 16, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valisha.8650 Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 But what's the point of making, leveling, gearing and learning a character if it, as you say, will get nerfed soon? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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