WvW vs Pvp ease of entry.

[NumNums.7935]

WvW and PvP are my two favorite game modes, but I have noticed that Pvp has a much easier time getting new players to try out.  (This is an observation when farming pvp daily on my alts for guild hall) 

 

Both game modes are competitive, yet WvW uses your PvE gear as where PvP has its own trinket / runes / weapons / sigils simplified build setup along with autobalance to lv 80.

 

Would love to see what the community thinks about the difference between the two game modes build systems. Do you think it would be good to have them use the pvp system? What about balance? Would it make it easier for new people to try? (When I say new I mean new to gamemode, not just players that are new to the game) Or would effort be wasted.

[SlayerXX.7138]

PvP Conquest is just smaller in scale. That why it is much easier to get into. While gear maybe is a tiny hurdle for the game mode, things like the talent system and the fact it is coordinated group content are much bigger barriers for entry. How many hours does it take to be an effective supply mule(Warclaw + some point in supply capacity)? Even with ascended gear there is not much you can do to help win the game as a single person. In PvP you can go in play your class well, win a Game and be finished in 15 mins. Im honestly surprised how little PvP player there seem to be, as GW 2 smooth combat system is it´s best feature. I am pretty sure the simplified build setup system is there mostly for balance reason anyway. How often did they have to nuke the heal amulets? WvW is the only place where you can pvp with the full power guild wars provides. That's why you often see guys dueling out over the bottom camp in the boarder maps. I wouldn't like to see that gone.

[Caliboom.3218]

Maybe the reason why people don't touch WvW is because it's a bad gamemode, you're screwed if you don't have a warclaw, but you need to do it to get one, and you have to enjoy being farmed by noskill oneshot cheesy condi bunker builds. Super fun.

[Cuks.8241]

I like how they are with the gearing. 

sPvP is purely competitive mode. The playing should be levelled. Everyone equal. You can adapt your build and gear at any time, on the fly, also as a response to the enemy team composition.

WvW is different. Its a sandbox mostly pvp mode. Its not purely competitive, it isnt designed as a fair environment. Its a warzone where you also need to learn to survive and find your place. Not everyone is on the same playing field either because of gear or because of social interactions.

Its a pvp mode where you can out gear your opponent. Its more of a classic rpg fitting environment. And as such I like it. I like pvp game modes where you can put your shinnies to good use. Its actually the ultimate end game for me in mmorpgs. Its where your gear and also your guild can shine by dominating other players/guilds in pvp. PVE is fine and all but once you learn all the patterns it becomes repetitive. pvp modes are never repetitive to such extent. There will always be a different situation and always someone or some group on the other side that will be better and have different approach that you need to adapt to.

But I also like purely competitive modes where only skill matters. So its good we have both.

[Gibson.4036]

WvW Newbie: Run along behind this group and hope you get the speed boost shed on you by the warclaws until you have played enough to get one.

PvP Newbie: Get slaughtered by 5-person coordinated teams in unranked until you earn the right to get more even matching in ranked.

I don't know about gear, but there's definitely an unpleasant hurdle for both. I personally found grinding out the warclaw to be the lesser hurdle, though I enjoy PvP more in the end.

[SlayerXX.7138]

13 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

PvP Newbie: Get slaughtered by 5-person coordinated teams in unranked until you earn the right to get more even matching in ranked.

Easy fix: 

1. Play ranked
2. get slaughtered
3. rank down
4. repeat step 2. and 3. till you stop getting slaughtered
5. get People on your skill level to play with
6. Have fun

That`s what i did,  and now living the best live on the bottom of plat with my Meme build.
Unranked uses a hidden mmr and if you have no ranked at all the games doesn't know where to place you. It probably assume some value around high Silver which is to hard for some newbie. Also they are probably not coordinated, just blood hungry. Also also stunbreak and condition cleanse are you friends in sPvP. Still more fun then farming warclaw without a warclaw:D.
 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250
Typo

[ArchonWing.9480]

I prefer WvW because I can arbitrarily leave and join whenever I want, instead of having to wait for matchmaking or just waiting on people.  You have no real obligations to anyone much like in open world. However, WvW does have dead hours and this varies with servers.

Warclaw acquisition leaves much to be desired. Along with the Gift of Battle, reward tracks take too long and before anyone says use boosters, well that's just driving home the point-- the base is just that bad. These things can and would deter new players.

Edited April 13, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Gibson.4036]

46 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Easy fix: 

1. Play ranked
2. get slaughtered
3. rank down
4. repeat step 2. and 3. till you stop getting slaughtered
5. get People on your skill level to play with
6. Have fun

That`s what i did,  and no living the best live on the bottom of plat with my Meme build.
Unranked uses a hidden mmr and if you have no ranked at all the games doesn't know where to place you. It probably assume some value around high Silver which is to hard for some newbie. Also they are probably not coordinated, just blood hungry. Also also stunbreak and condition cleanse are you friends in sPvP. Still more fun then farming warclaw without a warclaw:D.
 

Except a new player can't join ranked. You have to grind out PVP Rank 20 getting slaughtered in unranked before you are allowed to join ranked matches.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Except a new player can't join ranked. You have to grind out PVP Rank 20 getting slaughtered in unranked before you are allowed to join ranked matches.

You are right I remember now. That was a thing. But i also remember games getting easier. Probably still hidden mmr are at works. Its a while since i started oops.

[Danikat.8537]

Honestly I didn't worry about equipment at all when I first played WvW and if anything the fact that I could go in using my PvE skills and equipment instead of having to set something new up using a unique interface made it seem easier to get into. No it probably wasn't a good idea to use my PvE build (this was in 2013, so I can't remember what exactly I was using) but it's possible.

I've tried both, stuck with WvW and haven't been back to PvP since I got the mini llama. I think I prefer WvW because there's more to it. Sooner or later it gets repetative, going around and around the map capturing and defending the same locations over and over, but it takes longer to get repetative than running around a little pen killing and being killed by the same 5 people over and over until the timer runs out.

[kash.9213]

WvW is dip in and dip out and there's no pressure if you want to take it easy and just feel the maps breath.

A mobile build will out maneuver Warclaw and probably map travel just as well overall plus there's usually a tag with speed buff to run with. But the optics of taking a long time to get a mount will still be detrimental.

I think from a first person perspective of a new player, starting Spvp is probably easier because the lobby and match system is familiar if they've been playing games online for awhile. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

9 hours ago, Caliboom.3218 said:

Maybe the reason why people don't touch WvW is because it's a bad gamemode, you're screwed if you don't have a warclaw, but you need to do it to get one, and you have to enjoy being farmed by noskill oneshot cheesy condi bunker builds. Super fun.

Because you can't just run around open field, alone without a roamer spec while having a low Wvw rank and not expect to get farmed. 

Wvw is one of the last places in GW2 or even MMOs where community and communication matters. 

Unlike PvE or PvP which you can play basically solo without ever needing to talk to people. 

 

 

[NumNums.7935]

Reading thru these were interesting. Lots of different points.

 

Wvw solo roaming and wvw squad fights are my favorite. I still feel that wvw is easier and a person can keep max participation with just flipping a camp every 7-10 mins. So I'd argue that that same as PvP which you can duo queue and call things out on discord. Both gamemodes can be solo or social.

[Labjax.2465]

I like the idea of using the PvP gear setup, I've always thought it strange that WvW doesn't.

But as far as new people, I think its problems are fundamental to the design of it. PvP instance with objectives is a familiar trope in MMOs, WvW I don't think there is much like it in video games in general.

And it's kind of opaque on first entry. You enter in one of 4 different maps (or 5, if you count dead EotM) and then it kinda looks like there is barely anyone around and nothing much happening. If you're lucky, there is a commander tag up in the map you chose, so maybe you go follow them around. But if your zerg is outmatched, you might just get curbstomped until comm tags down. Or if your zerg is only looking for fights and not caring about objectives, you might be chasing a tag in their spastic movement dance for the next hour while trying not to get left behind. Whatever the case, maybe you learn a little bit, but what it means, you may not have any idea how to contextualize it. What do all the numbers mean, does it really matter if you're ahead? You get another pip or two per tick, but that's about it.

Maybe if there's no comm or comm tags down, you decide you'll go for an objective by yourself, so you take a while to get there and maybe it goes well, or maybe an enemy zerg is nearby and you get swarmed, so now you have to decide if you're going to waypoint back and run all that way to try for another objective or just give up for now. If you were successful, maybe you got your team's points up a little, but to what end other than pips, who knows.

I'm not trying to say the game mode is bad, but I don't think it's clear at all on first look what you are expected to do in there and how, or why, or what the various strategies may be and ultimate end goal other than "capture and retain objectives forever."

[Sahne.6950]

16 hours ago, Caliboom.3218 said:

Maybe the reason why people don't touch WvW is because it's a bad gamemode, you're screwed if you don't have a warclaw, but you need to do it to get one, and you have to enjoy being farmed by noskill oneshot cheesy condi bunker builds. Super fun.

ahh yess! The Oneshot bunkerbuilds! gotta love those 🙄

[Sahne.6950]

12 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

like the idea of using the PvP gear setup, I've always thought it strange that WvW doesn't.

REEEEE STOP IT!!!

[Danikat.8537]

57 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I like the idea of using the PvP gear setup, I've always thought it strange that WvW doesn't.

But as far as new people, I think its problems are fundamental to the design of it. PvP instance with objectives is a familiar trope in MMOs, WvW I don't think there is much like it in video games in general.

And it's kind of opaque on first entry. You enter in one of 4 different maps (or 5, if you count dead EotM) and then it kinda looks like there is barely anyone around and nothing much happening. If you're lucky, there is a commander tag up in the map you chose, so maybe you go follow them around. But if your zerg is outmatched, you might just get curbstomped until comm tags down. Or if your zerg is only looking for fights and not caring about objectives, you might be chasing a tag in their spastic movement dance for the next hour while trying not to get left behind. Whatever the case, maybe you learn a little bit, but what it means, you may not have any idea how to contextualize it. What do all the numbers mean, does it really matter if you're ahead? You get another pip or two per tick, but that's about it.

Maybe if there's no comm or comm tags down, you decide you'll go for an objective by yourself, so you take a while to get there and maybe it goes well, or maybe an enemy zerg is nearby and you get swarmed, so now you have to decide if you're going to waypoint back and run all that way to try for another objective or just give up for now. If you were successful, maybe you got your team's points up a little, but to what end other than pips, who knows.

I'm not trying to say the game mode is bad, but I don't think it's clear at all on first look what you are expected to do in there and how, or why, or what the various strategies may be and ultimate end goal other than "capture and retain objectives forever."

Game modes like WvW have appeared in several other MMOs, I think it's usually called Realm vs Realm.

Dark Age of Camelot was one of the first I heard of doing it, and is still sometimes referenced as one of the best examples (I've not played it myself). Elder Scrolls Online's Alliance War is very similar, but in 1 map and for years it was that game's only PvP mode. They later added battlegrounds which are like GW2's PvP, but when most ESO players talk about playing PvP they mean the Alliance War. Then there's games where a similar form of PvP takes place in the PvE maps, with groups of players aligned with larger factions fighting over control of locations.

I think which version/s of PvP you're most familiar with depends on which MMOs you've played before.

(Also for me, having more experience with single-player games than MMOs, the simple comparison for WvW was that you're one of the units in an RTS.)

[Ultramex.1506]

I like WvW more than PvP, i can be a support/healer and can get participation by just tagging and healing, that how i started in WvW to get legendary. PvP leave no room for errors everyone must do their part.

People said reward tracks are too slow, well imo its slow if you look at it most of the time. Time fly when you are having fun, that how it was for me anyway

[Ashen.2907]

My experience has been that it is easier to get new people to try wvw because it is closer to pve, both in terms of equipment/build, and because, "follow the tag," is a concept most pve players are already familiar with.

 

I would probably stop playing wvw if it was switched to the pvp amulet system. That system has its place but trying to turn wvw into spvp would rob it of some of its identity.

[Xerxez.7361]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:05 AM, NumNums.7935 said:

WvW and PvP are my two favorite game modes, but I have noticed that Pvp has a much easier time getting new players to try out.  (This is an observation when farming pvp daily on my alts for guild hall) 

 

Both game modes are competitive, yet WvW uses your PvE gear as where PvP has its own trinket / runes / weapons / sigils simplified build setup along with autobalance to lv 80.

 

Would love to see what the community thinks about the difference between the two game modes build systems. Do you think it would be good to have them use the pvp system? What about balance? Would it make it easier for new people to try? (When I say new I mean new to gamemode, not just players that are new to the game) Or would effort be wasted.

 

What ruined WvW for me was a group of 20 or so players from a guild camping the spawn area.

[Ashen.2907]

8 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

 

What ruined WvW for me was a group of 20 or so players from a guild camping the spawn area.

Were they camping all of the exits from the spawn point?

 

I dislike spawn camping but have nevee had difficulty finding a way around.

[Xerxez.7361]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

Were they camping all of the exits from the spawn point?

 

I dislike spawn camping but have nevee had difficulty finding a way around.

 

Yes. I eventually have to go back to WvW for Legendaries, but its not a mode I will find enjoyable. So I'm putting it off til I have all my Legendary Runes, Sigils, & Armor Crafted.

[Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.294]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Were they camping all of the exits from the spawn point?

 

I dislike spawn camping but have nevee had difficulty finding a way around.

I really got disgusted by one guild camping the veteran warg spawn when veteran creature killer was the daily. 

 

But I was also disgusted when warclaw was nerfed to the point that I am just as fast on foot with my herald or my ranger as I am mounted on the warclaw. 

[ugrakarma.9416]

the way rewards are presented in pvp have more appeal to new players, because its seems more easy gold.

[Ashen.2907]

5 hours ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

 

Yes. I eventually have to go back to WvW for Legendaries, but its not a mode I will find enjoyable. So I'm putting it off til I have all my Legendary Runes, Sigils, & Armor Crafted.

For what it is worth what you describe is exceedingly rare. Spawn camping is uncommon enough but camping all exits from a single BL is rarer still, and spawn camping all BL exits is something I have never seen, Very sorry you ran into it.