Before the steam launch things need to be properly explained - namely the fact that there is content gated by further paywalls beyond the expansion purchase price.

[kokocabana.8153]

I don't think it's the cost that most people are complaining about. It's the fragmentation of story content.

 

I haven't played ESO in a few years but generally the story and characters in each DLC\chapters are pretty self contained. If you don't buy one dlc\chapter, it doesn't really affect your understanding of the story for other dlc\chapters.

 

The living story content has a set of characters and ongoing story that just breaks down if you only play core gw2 -> HOT -> POF -> EOD. It's like watching the first half of each season of a tv show and then jumping to the next season.

Edited April 26, 2022 by kokocabana.8153

[Tyrant.1270]

38 minutes ago, kokocabana.8153 said:

I don't think it's the cost that most people are complaining about. It's the fragmentation of story content.

 

I haven't played ESO in a few years but generally the story and characters in each DLC\chapters are pretty self contained. If you don't buy one dlc\chapter, it doesn't really affect your understanding of the story for other dlc\chapters.

 

The living story content has a set of characters and ongoing story that just breaks down if you only play core gw2 -> HOT -> POF -> EOD. It's like watching the first half of each season of a tv show and then jumping to the next season.

The biggest issue is the lack of transparency. The moment someone hits a living story paywall after buying "Everything they need to experience Tyria" they are going to try to refund the game on steam and/or leave a bad review. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Tyrant.1270

[Dying Oblivion.8296]

Another thing that has annoyed me to no end is that I discovered that EMOTES are also gated. There are some emotes you can't use unless you have an expansion that it is linked to. This was NEVER the case in GW1. Emotes shouldn't be locked behind a pay wall 

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, kokocabana.8153 said:

I don't think it's the cost that most people are complaining about. It's the fragmentation of story content.

 

I haven't played ESO in a few years but generally the story and characters in each DLC\chapters are pretty self contained. If you don't buy one dlc\chapter, it doesn't really affect your understanding of the story for other dlc\chapters.

 

The living story content has a set of characters and ongoing story that just breaks down if you only play core gw2 -> HOT -> POF -> EOD. It's like watching the first half of each season of a tv show and then jumping to the next season.

ESO changed that a few years ago. They now do 'year long stories' where the 2 dungeon DLC, story DLC and chapter (expansion pack) all link together and you need to buy and play all of them to get the full story. Probably because they noticed a lot of people were skipping either the dungeon DLC or the story DLC because it's not the kind of thing they're interested in.

I think the two big differences between how ESO does it and how GW2 does it are that ESO calls their extra story bits DLC which is a term familiar to most gamers and implies "additional paid content, sold separately" and you can't spend 2 minutes on their website without finding some sort of advert for either buying DLC or subscribing to get access to it, so it's fairly obvious to new players there will be additional costs on top of whichever version of the game they buy, even if they get the Collection which includes all the chapters.

Whereas a potential new player could easily read the whole GW2 website and come away with the impression that 'the Living World' simply means the story to each expansion includes visiting older maps as well and some story steps are released after the initial expansion release. There's no mention that it's a distinct product and costs extra. (I think some parts of the website haven't been updated in years and may still be referring to Season 1.)

(Personally I think ESO should also offer a 'complete edition' with all the expansions and DLC so far, but I suppose they would prefer players to subscribe because it's more expensive in the long run.)

[Nole.3017]

3 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

It doesn’t matter. The point I was making was that you felt one thing being 10 years old should be basically free. 

It should be free because thats industry standard when it comes to MMOs. Turning away player that would potentially spend 50$ per month on cosmetics and QoL because of 20$ LWS is bad business.

[BluePickle.9253]

Literally nothing is paywalled. Living World episodes are unlocked with gems. You can trade for gems with in-game gold. Play the game. Stop expecting to get everything you want just because you own the game.

[Linken.6345]

17 hours ago, dippy.8961 said:

I don't know why HoT would cost more for less content in your math, but no, that's not what I'm saying at all.  I'm saying LW1 & 2 are almost a decade old, and they should flat out be free by this point.  Since you can't just buy HoT anymore, if enough money hasn't been made on the free content per "player's time", bring the price of HoT/PoF, plus all associated LW seasons (3, 4, 5), up to $45.  If that's not an option, then bundle the LW content into a $30-35 package.  Continuing to have the content locked behind the gem store has, and will push people away from it, for what ever their reasoning is.

Thats what it cost at release if my memory serve me with an added cost for the living season on top.

The one I replied to wanted to add each season to the box it came with.

In order to add it each box should come with a cost right?

[Ashen.2907]

19 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

exposing the steam crowd to LW madness before they are hooked is a very poor idea.

why do you think anet is trying to hide it in the first way? steam players will take one look at it, and install

another mmo instead. 

If ANet wanted to hide it it would not be accessible.

[Labjax.2465]

Make LW free going forward and instead give people the gems they'd normally have to pay if they are there for new episodes (200). This can be done retroactively, too, for people who already have it. An incentive (get gems for showing up) is better than a punishment (not have to pay in the future if you show up).

LW maps need population, some of them. You get a boost in that by opening it up to everybody, which is better for all players doing that content. Nobody wants to get invested in a game if they go to a map and it's dead half the time.

[Ashen.2907]

6 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

In order to add it each box should come with a cost right?

Not necessarily. Adding LW to the expansions without increasing the expansion price tag would potentially increase the perceived value of the "box" resulting in more revenue than if the price tag were higher. I am not saying that it would work for sure here, but such approaches to pricing are very effective in my industry.

[lezbefriends.7516]

Just so you guys know, it isn't a hidden fee scheme by ANet. Game came out with the plan of LW seasons to eliminate the need for expansions. The "expansion's worth of content" statement goes as far back as release. But things changed and they decided to do expansions, but people came to expect LW as well... so you have two incompatible models clashing with each other.

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Make LW free going forward and instead give people the gems they'd normally have to pay if they are there for new episodes (200). This can be done retroactively, too, for people who already have it. An incentive (get gems for showing up) is better than a punishment (not have to pay in the future if you show up).

LW maps need population, some of them. You get a boost in that by opening it up to everybody, which is better for all players doing that content. Nobody wants to get invested in a game if they go to a map and it's dead half the time.

Exactly. Anyone who buys LW once only to find it empty, that he cannot complete it in its entirety due to population is going to be very leery about spending money on the game (expansions) again.

[HowlKamui.5120]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:38 AM, DeanBB.4268 said:

While I do agree the DLCs need better bundling and transparency, I also think the "game is coming to Steam" excuse needs to just stop. Are Steam users all idiots? I use Steam and don't consider myself an idiot. But you'd think so from all these posts. How about we make an improvement for improvement's sake?

Steam Users are used to DLCs. How many DLCs did I have to buy for Civ 5 & Civ 6? Sheesh. Make some bundles, show all the DLCs on the Steam GW2 page, don't leave any surprises as far as that goes, it'll be good.

No one said steam users are stupid. This is about being more transparent in advertising the “complete” bundle which isnt actually complete. It’ll leave a bad taste in the mouth of potential new players when they find out they dont actually have the complete game.

Considering how some of the best content in the game is in LW episodes (skyscale for example), people who were deceived with the complete bundle will tend to be more vocal about it.

[HowlKamui.5120]

8 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Just so you guys know, it isn't a hidden fee scheme by ANet. Game came out with the plan of LW seasons to eliminate the need for expansions. The "expansion's worth of content" statement goes as far back as release. But things changed and they decided to do expansions, but people came to expect LW as well... so you have two incompatible models clashing with each other.

But it’s not incompatible lol. Its normal for MMOs to have smaller releases in between expansions. The system is fine as is, it just needs some clarification.

[SlayerXX.7138]

They shot themselves in the foot with making living world main story content. I started after Pof released. I did the personal story, got funneled into HoT story, played the first story mission and never touched the story again. Who are these people? What is happening? Why should I care at all?

I now have all the living World season halve from the free season of dragon rest I bought with gold Gems recently. It is a mess each story is boring because I'm so out of the loop on everything. I miss context or already spoiled and it feels all so pointless.

 

Look at WoW how long their story carried that Game. Frozen throne introduced all the feature player hate, but you are fighting God Damm Arthas and People are hyped.

 

I know they make money of living world, but they have to fix that somehow at a profit loss if need be. Even if new players don't complain on steam and get refunds, at best they just disengage from the story like me. 

 

That is like selling a "Harry potter book collection" with "Chamber of secrets" and "Goblet for Fire" missing. They even use Living world on there advertisement.

[Svarty.8019]

Regularly making old episodes free, one-by-one as in the past, should help with customer retention as they wait and/or pop back to acquire whichever one it is this month. 

 

This proven method gives people the one thing they don't have otherwise: HOPE!

[Chocofox.9503]

Since the Story is continuous and missing these living world batches both shuns away new and return players with the gem gate I recommend link living world episodes to the previous expansions. This means new players will not miss story without feeling they need to shell out money or be left out, causing some of these new players not to stick around, and ensuring returning players felt welcomed back not punished for getting busy with life. To compensate for this more rush week types of events could be used to keep players active when content is lacking and if it means not missing out on content an extra 5$ could be tacked onto future expansions with this in mind to compensate for the gemstone loss.

[dippy.8961]

I keep seeing money enter the equation for LW content, and I think it's disingenuous.  If A-Net really cared about making money off of LW content, they wouldn't have provided it for free to 100's of thousands of players (if not millions; there are around 16.3 million accounts with 310k playing daily).  The little bit of money they get through the gem store for the LW content likely pales in comparison to expansion sales.  If money was really a motivator for this content, then they would have charged all of us for it to begin with.  Bringing in new players through Steam and saying, "Oh, this content that our veteran players got for free, you'll have to pay for in some fashion, and you'll be utterly clueless story wise until you do," is just a kitten move.  They've made it free 2x now, just make it free all around; unlocked with the purchase of the related expansion.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, dippy.8961 said:

I keep seeing money enter the equation for LW content, and I think it's disingenuous.  If A-Net really cared about making money off of LW content, they wouldn't have provided it for free to 100's of thousands of players (if not millions; there are around 16.3 million accounts with 310k playing daily).  The little bit of money they get through the gem store for the LW content likely pales in comparison to expansion sales.  If money was really a motivator for this content, then they would have charged all of us for it to begin with.  Bringing in new players through Steam and saying, "Oh, this content that our veteran players got for free, you'll have to pay for in some fashion, and you'll be utterly clueless story wise until you do," is just a kitten move.  They've made it free 2x now, just make it free all around; unlocked with the purchase of the related expansion.

 

Or they've made more money than you think by doing that.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Thoughts...

 

1) GW2 is a good value.  $30 XPac's?  Below industry standard.  Free DLC to players logging in during their release?  Not in any other game I know of, but what do I know?  The gem store is a lot less obtrusive in GW2 than in a lot of games.

2) It would be extremely hard to argue that the wording in the ad linked by the OP is not misleading.

3) If ANet rolls it out the way it is on Steam, the reception will be poor.

4) Even outside of Steam, players who felt misled have not been happy and such people are not going to be happy going forward.

5) Changing the wording to be crystal clear would be a minor task for a PR or pricing staff member.

6) Doing so would avoid negative perceptions by consumers in an industry where public opinions of the product matter quite a bit.

 

More thoughts...

 

1) Why has ANet not taken any action after the multiple times the "misleading info" topic has appeared?  Do they not notice?  Not care?  The ad was suggested by a bigwig and the subordinates don't want to bring it to her/his attention? Are they trying to get more money out of people who buy an XPac when it becomes clear there's more to it?  Of those possibilities, , I'd tend to discount the first two, and fervently hope it's not the fourth. That leaves number three, or something I haven't considered.  Edit: I thought of another one.  They don't want to admit they were wrong.  This is now my leading contender.

2) Why hasn't ANet bundled the Living Seasons with the XPac they "belong" to?  Are they really getting that much benefit from standalone LW episodes that risking bad PR seems worth it?  That's  awfully close to option four, above.  Are they worried that people who bought the episodes will demand a refund?  Sure, that might happen, but their competitors don't refund when they bundle, so ANet shouldn't expect to -- and the upset caused by the misleading ad is going to generate more agreement from uninvolved people in general than demands for compensation when a price changes.

3) This is a failure on ANet's part, and it makes me think less of them as a company.

Edited April 28, 2022 by IndigoSundown.5419

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

2) It would be extremely hard to argue that the wording in the ad linked by the OP is not misleading.

What could possibly be misleading about a heading on the collection edition tab stating in all caps "ALL CONTENT IN ONE COLLECTION"?

What could possibly be misleading about the following: "Get everything that you need to experience Tyria, a vast living world.  This collection includes Guild Wars 2 and all of its expansions: End of Dragons, Path of Fire, and Heart of Thorns"? 

(Nah.  The living story seasons are not content nor needed to experience the living world of Tyria.)

/s

Edited April 28, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Nemesis.8576]

Someone worked hard on this stuff.  I don't understand why you'd give it away in the first place, but then after a while, you have to buy it.  It's inconsistent.  Pick one, and stick to it.  Also, even after you buy it, access to maps are stuck behind the story.  You can't just go there in most cases.  Maybe people just want to explore and don't want to do the story.  But, that's not the biggest GW2 problem.  The main issue is that the build system is too kitten complicated.  I have to sort through hundreds of combinations of abilities and armor stats to find one of the few builds that actually work.  The vast majority of combinations are just awful.  Why even allow combinations that are so useless.  It looks like, at some point, that someone realized that health was a big issue for most professions and that person decided to give level 80 boosted characters Soldier's armor to compensate.  Not a horrible idea, but perhaps something like Marauder would have been a better balance.  Now, it looks like everyone gets Celestial armor, which seems like you've just given up trying to help people spec their armor.  But, who the hell knows?  No of use know how this thing is supposes to work.  Can we have a pure power spec and be effective?  Can we have a pure condition spec and be effective?   I honestly can't tell.  I've tried them both, who the hell knows if I'm missing something crucial.  Should we all have Celestial spec?

[Aridon.8362]

If you think this is bad, wait until you see how the Elder Scrolls Online does their thing. Almost $800 for all DLC.

[mythical.6315]

35 minutes ago, Aridon.8362 said:

If you think this is bad, wait until you see how the Elder Scrolls Online does their thing. Almost $800 for all DLC.

 

Or you buy a month of their subscription and go through every DLC during that time.  It's also less than$300 if you were to buy all DLC outright including having every expansion.  I'm not sure where the $800 came from.

[Danikat.8537]

9 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

 

Or you buy a month of their subscription and go through every DLC during that time.  It's also less than$300 if you were to buy all DLC outright including having every expansion.  I'm not sure where the $800 came from.

I'm not sure either. If you bought each DLC individually it would cost 44,000 crowns. If for some reason you bought only 1,500 crown packs that would cost $439.70 US. Add on the base game + High Isle and you're close to $500.

But if you were new and wanted to get everything the sensible thing would be to buy the Collection: High Isle version for $59.99 which includes the 5 previous expansion packs, then get the DLC bundles (Guilds & Glory, Year 2 Pack, Season of the Dragon) for 11,000 in total, then buy the remaining 7 DLC individually for 11,500 in total. That's 22,500 crowns so a 21,000 crown pack and a 1,500 crown pack. That way the total price is $224.97.  (Or you can buy the game and then subscribe, which gives you access to everything except the most recent expansion.)

(By comparison the EoD Collection + all the Living World costs $109.99)

I think this helps illustrate the problem though. On the surface ESO is in a similar position in that there's lots of options for new players but no way to get the entire game in one purchase. It's confusing and I often see new players on their forum asking which version they should buy and what else they'll need to get after that. But they always know there will be additional purchases. They're coming into it expecting to buy the game and then pay more to get all the DLC.

Whereas new GW2 players think they're getting the whole game and start that 'what else do I need to buy' step annoyed and confused that they're having to do it at all.