Is it condi spam that's too good or boons that are useless?

[Shao.7236]

With Resistance changes there has been a better incentive to use Poison along the way of whatever you can add on top of all your damage, considerably not having a counter to Poison modifiers could just be the issue as of late but regardless, Resolution is quite underwhelming, Resistance durations are so short that why should we bother.

 

What if instead of being as merely simple those boons had more yet similar benefits/pros as compared to how power stays in check with Protection and Weakness?

 

Afaik there's nothing that keeps away the chances of a condition working properly or that soft-cc can be prevented accordingly because of left overs after the fact that Resistance is no longer effective.

 

Power has several ways of being shafted constantly to the point where it can't do anything but either key mash anyway or wait for Weakness to wear off while you have blind spam that is more or less of an issue on both sides, condi tends to favor AoE's which is still less problematic.

 

So to address what feels like could avoid having to nerf things like Harbinger that has a never ending amount of Weakness or really high amount of different conditions that nothing can ever keep them off at all now with the nerfs that constantly is brought on the table..

 

What if Resistance prevented application of soft CC for it's duration while nullifying those already applied?

 

What if Resolution wasn't just about damage but duration?

 

You could suggest that Resolution is fine as it is and Resistance should be the one to feature condition duration reduction as well on top of it's better defense against soft-cc application by nullifying it 100% or have it simply be about duration.

 

Personally when you look at Stability and Hard CC's, it's quite literally a full denial, no side effects, no disabled procs or no damage (for obvious reasons), so how come soft-ccs aren't getting the same treatment? In a lot of cases Resistance is worthless as a counter because there's just too much of it and avoiding is better anyway.

 

Then you have condi damage that you don't have to look around and about for anything, just apply enough then wait for most clears then apply again, nothing that would make using conditions ever a bad choice because there is not way to create significant consequences for negligence like Weakness does for power, logically because it's DoT and not precision but perhaps that's why the over time should take a hit.

 

Overall even if Power is technically meta there is still a bit of an unfair situation going on here and getting thoughts on it would be nice.

[Downstate.4697]

Resolution already makes condis feel weak. The real issue is resource management and having to deal with condi+power at the same time. 

I would also like to suggest making poison a non damaging condition so it can be effected by resistance

[Fueki.4753]

Conditions being able to burst similarly to power builds is definitely a questionable design choice.

And then there also is the issue with conditions requiring only one attribute in sPvP to be equally or even more effective than power builds, which usually require three attributes.

I'd rather have Arenanet tone down the damage per tick and increase durations.

Arenanet could than adjust condition clear potential on over-performing clearers.

[Rider.6024]

rip resistance, you were taken from us too early

[coro.3176]

Resistance was silly.

Builds would just be literally immune to all conditions permanently. I'm not saying the current state is good - too much cleanse which requires too much condi burst which requires more cleanse etc. - but resistance was dumb.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Conditions being able to burst similarly to power builds is definitely a questionable design choice.

And then there also is the issue with conditions requiring only one attribute in sPvP to be equally or even more effective than power builds, which usually require three attributes.

I'd rather have Arenanet tone down the damage per tick and increase durations.

Arenanet could than adjust condition clear potential on over-performing clearers.

That's the outlier for me. DoT understandably is over time which requires users to survive while it takes effect, but at the same time there's a lot of moving parts with it and hardly an evade is enough to matter unlike where power is easily avoided.

 

Very often it's not that you fail to mitigate conditions properly, there is just not enough cleansing per utility available while soft-cc/damaging conditions are plenty and renders you completely useless as power whether you'd want to wait for weakness to run out or clear it there's like 4 more coming and you're forced to wait again.

 

Here I am mitigating all the damage fine but Weakness is constantly applied and for very long durations. Using any skills is a waste until it's gone so I'm stuck doing nothing because why would I.

 

I can aim to have more Resistance but that's a big investment I might lose right away and there's likely to be 8 seconds left to weakness afterwards.

 

Resistance is without a doubt too low with the re-design though. Likewise I am not troubled by damage, just the amount of different things to deal with at once that leaves me with no options.

[Shao.7236]

5 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Resistance was silly.

Builds would just be literally immune to all conditions permanently. I'm not saying the current state is good - too much cleanse which requires too much condi burst which requires more cleanse etc. - but resistance was dumb.

Not saying old Resistance was balanced. I was in fact one of the only Mallyx Revs just a few years ago that would play with the least as possible because of the available damage reduction. My use was exclusively because of maximizing Empowering Misery against poison modifiers and you still had to clear the left overs afterwards.

 

The boon right now is extremely low in duration and poison modifiers are always unaffected.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Shao.7236

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Resistance was silly.

Builds would just be literally immune to all conditions permanently. I'm not saying the current state is good - too much cleanse which requires too much condi burst which requires more cleanse etc. - but resistance was dumb.

I've enjoyed every second of him being unaffected by condies, beautiful.

[Grimjack.8130]

ahh yes condition specs are overperforming right and and we're certainly not in the most hostile meta for conditions that we've had for multiple years or anything

[Shao.7236]

26 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

ahh yes condition specs are overperforming right and and we're certainly not in the most hostile meta for conditions that we've had for multiple years or anything

Never have I said as such. Even mentioning power meta. Rather than nerfing anything why not considering that something else might be lacking.

 

Likewise Resistance duration is an all time low on everything on top of have being nerfed in the context of it's old design, not accounting for the new.

 

Why should we just assume that we need to nerf Weakness/Cripple/Chill/Immobilize/Slow duration or application when it might just be right to have other means to prevent it as a proper counter with the right timing instead? Such is the same for Hard-CCs  with Stability so why not for the more easily accessed spammable Soft-CCs too?

 

Condition damage may not be meta but what makes it except of the criticism that nobody talks about which is only requiring one stat combo? Condition can be bursty like power and yet has no repercussions to be randomly used unlike power because you have to be wary of Weakness, Protection and Blind. Condition Damage other than Resolution has nothing to be worried about let alone Poison that has been getting an entire exception to it's secondary effect for a while which doesn't count as damage, if it did Resolution should affect it by that logic.

Cleansing is no excuse, Stunbreaks are equally trading off while there is also several ways to be immune to power damage while condition that's completely gone.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Amadeus.5687]

1 minute ago, Shao.7236 said:

Condition damage may not be meta but what makes it except of the criticism that nobody talks about which is only requiring one stat combo? Condition can be bursty like power and yet has no repercussions to be randomly used unlike power because you have to be wary of Weakness, Protection and Blind. Condition Damage other than Resolution has nothing to be worried about let alone Poison that has been getting an entire exception to it's secondary effect for a while which doesn't count as damage, if it did Resolution should affect it by that logic.

This just shows you don't play condition damage builds and in this thread completely ignore the repercussion that condition dmg face:
Condition removal.
Condition builds is a playstyle about timing, setup and opportunity as much as power is, if not more. Cause all of you dmg can be negated with a single skill press on most current meta builds. On top of that condition dmg skill also get blinded, blocked, evaded ect. just like power.
You say it's not affected by blind simply shows your not "objective and impartial" as you claim in your signature lol. 

[Fueki.4753]

28 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

ahh yes condition specs are overperforming right and and we're certainly not in the most hostile meta for conditions that we've had for multiple years or anything

The meta does not mean everything. It probably means very little, if anything, to the majority.

[Sigmoid.7082]

How much damage over what timeframe is considered burst?

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

This just shows you don't play condition damage builds and in this thread completely ignore the repercussion that condition dmg face:
Condition removal.
Condition builds is a playstyle about timing, setup and opportunity as much as power is, if not more. Cause all of you dmg can be negated with a single skill press on most current meta builds. On top of that condition dmg skill also get blinded, blocked, evaded ect. just like power.
You say it's not affected by blind simply shows your not "objective and impartial" as you claim in your signature lol. 

You could always read further into the topic rather than directly assume I never played condition or have mentioned anything later, I have one hour video montage of me learning to mostly mastering pure core engineer p/p condition to disprove your ignorant assumptions. I wanted to put this topic out as soon as I could and I'd hate to put more than 20 minutes on it when I have other things to attend.

 

Some professions have complete immunity to power damage which is not a thing currently with condition damage and to be "factual" any further, condition is DoT which means many of the "damage reduction" for condition is only ever fully effective if it last long enough while you have conditions that last for greater amounts, unlike power that is gone in a split second. You want to be objective with condition damage? How does it fair out to have every utility that cleanse conditions to be always nearly twice as long in cooldown compared their power counter parts that fully nullify damage?

 

Like wise because conditions isn't currently meta doesn't mean you're pulling 9000 IQ moves by just playing it. I've had it with "pros" complaining about Mallyx Rev when it was a thing when they'd still pump above my own average stacks of condis with more cover than I could provide even with sigils, I'd win by simple transfers because they're always unloading/spamming rather than winning by attrition.

 

It's funny that you completely ignore how rampant Weakness is and why Harbinger right now overperforms because of it. Dare someone takes an approach that it's probably not nerfs that we need but a better system against the reckless spam mentality. Again DoT doesn't mean you should be able to faceroll at any given time. Condition damage is definitely not lacking either, Firebrand would be out there to do actually something if conditions were that "weak".

 

Nothing says in my post that blind is only a power issue either but it's definitely a lesser one for condition for obvious reasons hence the lack of mention, AoE, Quick successions of attacks because multiple stacks is what cause damage, only a handful of skills hand out many conditions in singular hit and those are usually accompanied with a sustain aspect such as evade or weakness. You could say I forgot but denying? That's bold.

 

1 hour ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

How much damage over what timeframe is considered burst?

 

Idk, getting hit by 7 different conditions in a whim while having to hope that you'll clear the higher stacks damaging one? I'd say Virtuoso Confusion is a good example of good covering of conditions since very often you have to cleanse in a burst of 3 otherwise you won't touch it. This is not me saying it's OP since that's easily assumed, just happen to notice that it happens a lot when I fight one.

 

Being hit by 3k burn a tick is rather bursty too and that happens a lot when there's a good support guard on an organized team.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It's condi spam that is broken. The fact is every build has to be an anti condi build. Even during heavy power metas, everyone is forced to run anti condi because you instantly lose the second you run into that one condi build that is being played. People with poor reasoning skills often incorrectly interpret this as the meta being hostile to condi builds, failing to notice why every meta has to be this way.

 

[FarmBotXD.1430]

I havent played for a while but let me guess if it sounds familiar
1 there is power meta
2 the most broken builds are power
3 there is like 9/10 power builds everywhere
4 everyone cries about that 2 still playable builds, as condi has been dogshit for so long people never had to learn how to deal with them

[Reikou.7068]

Just have the max number of conditions that can be applied to a player limited to 5 at once or something.

Any combination is ok, but any new condition coming in after the 5th is ignored.  

Edited May 13, 2022 by Reikou.7068

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

I havent played for a while but let me guess if it sounds familiar
1 there is power meta
2 the most broken builds are power
3 there is like 9/10 power builds everywhere
4 everyone cries about that 2 still playable builds, as condi has been dogshit for so long people never had to learn how to deal with them

This topic is not so much about Condition Damage but the amount of Soft-CC or that can be used without any repercussions, conditions are so much more simple in everyway compared all the other factors power has to do with. If one profession can't win because they always have Weakness on themselves, there's something wrong in the design, duration is too long or the means to counter it is not doing the job. Nobody is going to waste clears on conditions that don't deal damage against something that's using condi damage to begin with so asking for clearing conditions that are easily re-applied to the point where doing nothing is the viable strat calls for a change.

 

Someone already pointed out the fact that we always have the same meta of being power with condi sustain which is extremely true because no one can ever make it out alive without having mandatory clears since nothing else that's being offered is significant.

 

Could guaranteed that if spam could be punished by just merely preventing application of Soft-CC under certain requisites such as having Resistance, game would be in a better state and we wouldn't have to go through so many nerfs and tweaks over the duration of anything.

 

As it was said before, most modifiers hardly matters when condition duration outlasts the buff that's supposed to reduce it. At best reducing condition damage is giving you a chance to clear without dying so quickly, it's not useful for surviving against it if you have none since it'll all resume quickly.

[Myror.7521]

@Shao.7236 to say it on short...the problem are not just damaging condition but the non damaging ones. Cause those are the ones that are ways too spamy with also a too long duration (see on you blinds and weakness)

[Amadeus.5687]

13 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

You could always read further into the topic rather than directly assume I never played condition or have mentioned anything later, I have one hour video montage of me learning to mostly mastering pure core engineer p/p condition to disprove your ignorant assumptions. I wanted to put this topic out as soon as I could and I'd hate to put more than 20 minutes on it when I have other things to attend.

So you can't bother spending the time to make a prober topic, but expect people to look trough your videos to see you play around for an hour? Very sound logic

 

13 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Some professions have complete immunity to power damage which is not a thing currently with condition damage and to be "factual" any further, condition is DoT which means many of the "damage reduction" for condition is only ever fully effective if it last long enough while you have conditions that last for greater amounts, unlike power that is gone in a split second. You want to be objective with condition damage? How does it fair out to have every utility that cleanse conditions to be always nearly twice as long in cooldown compared their power counter parts that fully nullify damage?

So the first argument is Protection vs Resolution.
Both reduce the dmg by 33%.

Protection only works if you have it up the moment the power dmg hits you, are you 1 second to late with it the maul will deal it's full dmg. 
Resolution works if you have it up when conditions hit you AND you can apply it after the conditions have hit you. It's disadvantage is that it sometimes lack in duration as you say.
Yeah that's seems perfectly balanced to me, both have it's weakness and strength

Your next is "Complete immunity to power damage"
So lets take this one first, what is immunity to power damage really can be,:
Blocks
Evade frames
Invulnerability
Skills that reduce power dmg taken to 0 dmg.

Both block and Evades function vs condition dmg as much as they function vs power. Sure condition dmg will still tick on you if they got applied before you begin doing those two things. But there won't be applied any new conditions. "but that's different" you might claim; Not really, the 5k you lost instant from the maul attack right before you block is the same as the 5k bleeding you might take doing your block/evade duration.
On top of that most condi cleanse is instant so you can apply it doing the block/evade

Invulnerability negates both condi and power, it's been years since they changed it so condition dmg no longer apply dmg doing it either

Skills that reduce power dmg taken to 0 dmg, is the only ones not effecting condition and you claim "those utility skills" have half the CD of condition cleanses

 
lets take two examples:
Warrior Endure Pain
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain

40 second CD

Some of the condition removal utility you can take is

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Shake_It_Off!"

75 second recharge, but it got two charges,

You can also pick a healing skill like

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending

with only 20 second CD 

Ranger have Signet of Stone

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stone

40 sec CD

 

a conditon removal utility could be

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Renewal

50 sec CD

Or with elite specs 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mutate_Conditions

30 second CD

 

So your statement is simply not true and here I'm completely ignoring that both of these professions have access to condition removal from trait lines as well. Rangers don't even bother with any of those two signets and most ranger builds have used survival skills + wilderness magic to fix any issue they might have with conditons.

And this is me ignoring some of the ridiculous utility skills out there on other proffesions like Tree song

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tree_Song 3 condi removed with a 8 second CD

 

Or some of the insane passive condition removal/transfer Necromancers can get from Spite traitline or Willbender from Virtues.

 

If you mean some professions like harbinger is immune to power dmg because of blinds and weakness... Then I dunno what to tell you man. Go look at a MAT match or something and tell me how "immune" to dmg the harbringer is when a Willbender roll their face into them. 

 

 

13 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

It's funny that you completely ignore how rampant Weakness is and why Harbinger right now overperforms because of it. Dare someone takes an approach that it's probably not nerfs that we need but a better system against the reckless spam mentality. Again DoT doesn't mean you should be able to faceroll at any given time. Condition damage is definitely not lacking either, Firebrand would be out there to do actually something if conditions were that "weak".

There is maaaybe a debate to have about Weakness being to rampant on Harbringer. But that's mostly because of the high burst dmg and mobility that Harbringer have given Necromancers.
Necromancers gamewise have been designed with very little evade/block/immunity and have to face tank dmg and try negate it with blinds, weakness and PLENTY of condition removal/transfer. 
It's really no different then how Guardians have a lot of boons, blocks ect as their active defense. 

 

13 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Nothing says in my post that blind is only a power issue either but it's definitely a lesser one for condition for obvious reasons hence the lack of mention, AoE, Quick successions of attacks because multiple stacks is what cause damage, only a handful of skills hand out many conditions in singular hit and those are usually accompanied with a sustain aspect such as evade or weakness. You could say I forgot but denying? That's bold.

ehhh you pretty much implied it when you claimed condition dmg  should not be wary "unlike power because you have to be wary of Weakness, Protection and Blind ".  Where you lump blind in with weakness and protection which in fact do not affect condition dmg. But we can let that one slide 😉

That said; It's a false narrative that condition dmg skills are more spammy, rabid, multiple hits ect. Quick successions of attacks is that cause damage whatever it's condition dmg or power damage.
You don't see a Harbringer and Willbender "space out" all of their attacks when they teleport to you and do their dmg combo's.
Some professions like Warriors suffers more from blinds and ageis because they by design have a lot of big strong single strike attacks. Mean while proffesions like Necromancers and Elementalist suffer less, cause they have more pulsing AoE attacks.
But that have nothing to do with condition skills vs power skills, but profession design.

There is plenty of single strike condition attacks, just as there is plenty of single strike power attacks. Like wise there is plenty of multi strike condition attacks, just like there is plenty of multis trike power attacks

Heck take Ranger just as an example;
Shortbow is the condi weapon and Longbow is the power weapon; Longbow have 2 attacks #3 and #5 that don't care about blind. Shortbow have #2 that don't care if in close range.

Also I prefer fighting enemies that have active defence from blind over Aegis, simply because there is more counterplay with blind, I can cleanse it before I strike if I really wanna hit with my attack.

Edit: Also another dimension to condition removal is how wide spread AoE condition removal have become. Plenty of that going around making it really hard to get condition dmg rolling in team fights at a "high burst" tempo.
There is a reason power is the dominant king.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Amadeus.5687

[Buran.3796]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:32 PM, Shao.7236 said:

So to address what feels like could avoid having to nerf things like Harbinger that has a never ending amount of Weakness or really high amount of different conditions that nothing can ever keep them off at all now with the nerfs that constantly is brought on the table..

   Weakness is fine. The only reason you're having problems with it is due Vindi is hardcountered by, which was called it since the begining.

   This is not Devil May Cry, Dark Souls or Elden Ring, games with a broad access to evasion due other limitations balance the dificulty, as low sources of healing, regen, small windows to burst bosses with complex attack patterns, etc. This is a game designed to have only a couple of evades across all game modes, with limited access to extra i-frames. When you design a class to circunvent (Daredevil) or fall short (Mirage) in that basic schedule problems arise. That was known, and ANet still still insisted in releasing the Vindicator, a spec around the concept of a single evade (which is also needed for other functions which conflict with the main concept of using evades to prevent damage). And then they doubled the endurance cost...

   Of course, since is Rev and ANet, they tried to compensate it buffing the numbers, which of course delivered obscene results. They nerfed (as they should) and now the reality already called months ago emerges: enjoy the train wreck. 

   Just realize that Vindi is not well designed to PvP/WvW, which isn't anything new: some specs are really terrible in those game modes, since ANet barely supports or care about them.

[Sereath.1428]

Why is toughness/armor still a nonfactor against condition damage?

Edited May 13, 2022 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Shao.7236]

14 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Shao.7236 to say it on short...the problem are not just damaging condition but the non damaging ones. Cause those are the ones that are ways too spamy with also a too long duration (see on you blinds and weakness)

Well considering that some blinds easily have up to 5 seconds duration on repeat, waiting them out is never an option. Would you say it's fair that you're not allowed to do anything because they have already exhausted their options for it?

 

Shadow Shot on Thief is the best example of that and it's no wonder much of the other weapon sets haven't made it to be as good even though they are but at a higher skill ceiling anyway. Being as simple as having to never having to time anything right and just unblockable blind someone over and over with instant damage, why bother for timely evades?

 

Long duration is a bit of an understatement though, most of those conditions sometimes reach in the 8 seconds for a singular skill. Let alone to think that as Revenant people complain about me having too much Weakness where as it is often timed right while you have Necromancer which has like the triple of what I could have even if I tried to maximize it out.

 

If Resistance acted more like a persistent immunity to soft-cc application it would definitely have players think more and speed up the game in general with more ways to play, for what we know Resistance durations right now in a lot of cases would not last long enough if used reactively for several soft-ccs while at least preventing them from getting worst.

 

10 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

So you can't bother spending the time to make a prober topic, but expect people to look trough your videos to see you play around for an hour? Very sound logic

 

So the first argument is Protection vs Resolution.
Both reduce the dmg by 33%.

Protection only works if you have it up the moment the power dmg hits you, are you 1 second to late with it the maul will deal it's full dmg. 
Resolution works if you have it up when conditions hit you AND you can apply it after the conditions have hit you. It's disadvantage is that it sometimes lack in duration as you say.
Yeah that's seems perfectly balanced to me, both have it's weakness and strength

Your next is "Complete immunity to power damage"
So lets take this one first, what is immunity to power damage really can be,:
Blocks
Evade frames
Invulnerability
Skills that reduce power dmg taken to 0 dmg.

Both block and Evades function vs condition dmg as much as they function vs power. Sure condition dmg will still tick on you if they got applied before you begin doing those two things. But there won't be applied any new conditions. "but that's different" you might claim; Not really, the 5k you lost instant from the maul attack right before you block is the same as the 5k bleeding you might take doing your block/evade duration.
On top of that most condi cleanse is instant so you can apply it doing the block/evade

Invulnerability negates both condi and power, it's been years since they changed it so condition dmg no longer apply dmg doing it either

Skills that reduce power dmg taken to 0 dmg, is the only ones not effecting condition and you claim "those utility skills" have half the CD of condition cleanses

 
lets take two examples:
Warrior Endure Pain
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endure_Pain

40 second CD

Some of the condition removal utility you can take is

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Shake_It_Off!"

75 second recharge, but it got two charges,

You can also pick a healing skill like

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending

with only 20 second CD 

Ranger have Signet of Stone

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stone

40 sec CD

 

a conditon removal utility could be

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Renewal

50 sec CD

Or with elite specs 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mutate_Conditions

30 second CD

 

So your statement is simply not true and here I'm completely ignoring that both of these professions have access to condition removal from trait lines as well. Rangers don't even bother with any of those two signets and most ranger builds have used survival skills + wilderness magic to fix any issue they might have with conditons.

And this is me ignoring some of the ridiculous utility skills out there on other proffesions like Tree song

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tree_Song 3 condi removed with a 8 second CD

 

Or some of the insane passive condition removal/transfer Necromancers can get from Spite traitline or Willbender from Virtues.

 

If you mean some professions like harbinger is immune to power dmg because of blinds and weakness... Then I dunno what to tell you man. Go look at a MAT match or something and tell me how "immune" to dmg the harbringer is when a Willbender roll their face into them. 

 

 

There is maaaybe a debate to have about Weakness being to rampant on Harbringer. But that's mostly because of the high burst dmg and mobility that Harbringer have given Necromancers.
Necromancers gamewise have been designed with very little evade/block/immunity and have to face tank dmg and try negate it with blinds, weakness and PLENTY of condition removal/transfer. 
It's really no different then how Guardians have a lot of boons, blocks ect as their active defense. 

 

ehhh you pretty much implied it when you claimed condition dmg  should not be wary "unlike power because you have to be wary of Weakness, Protection and Blind ".  Where you lump blind in with weakness and protection which in fact do not affect condition dmg. But we can let that one slide 😉

That said; It's a false narrative that condition dmg skills are more spammy, rabid, multiple hits ect. Quick successions of attacks is that cause damage whatever it's condition dmg or power damage.
You don't see a Harbringer and Willbender "space out" all of their attacks when they teleport to you and do their dmg combo's.
Some professions like Warriors suffers more from blinds and ageis because they by design have a lot of big strong single strike attacks. Mean while proffesions like Necromancers and Elementalist suffer less, cause they have more pulsing AoE attacks.
But that have nothing to do with condition skills vs power skills, but profession design.

There is plenty of single strike condition attacks, just as there is plenty of single strike power attacks. Like wise there is plenty of multi strike condition attacks, just like there is plenty of multis trike power attacks

Heck take Ranger just as an example;
Shortbow is the condi weapon and Longbow is the power weapon; Longbow have 2 attacks #3 and #5 that don't care about blind. Shortbow have #2 that don't care if in close range.

Also I prefer fighting enemies that have active defence from blind over Aegis, simply because there is more counterplay with blind, I can cleanse it before I strike if I really wanna hit with my attack.

Edit: Also another dimension to condition removal is how wide spread AoE condition removal have become. Plenty of that going around making it really hard to get condition dmg rolling in team fights at a "high burst" tempo.
There is a reason power is the dominant king.

1. I have all the rights to assume that if I forgot something it can kindly be brought to attention and validate even further the consistency of the topic in relation to the main idea or not which actually tests the water further for the idea anyway. I wanted to make the most out of my time while I am not looking and thus what I did so that I don't have to wait for answers later.

 

2. Not really an argument but a mention, protection is often applied on CC or after so many mechanics that we don't need to talk about it. Also it's way more common on the conversion scale compared Resolution. Everyone applies vulnerability. Anyway 3 seconds of Resolution definitely does not combat the same 3 seconds of Protection would, not counting Critical Damage and the chances for it nor does Condition Damage have to worry about damage being uncertain, it's always consistent, indifferent and stacks in intensity, because it can be cleansed doesn't meant it's exempt of similar factors, especially because it can be covered with other much more influence conditions that can be applied recklessly which goes back about Soft-CCs and Resistance again.

 

3. You see aside Healing Skills which should mostly wipe all pressure, unless "utility" has some form of synergy that brings condition hate, nothing is ever being used. Ranger Survival utility has always been busted from the very start and haven't been changed for the longest time while most professions have been shafted for whatever reasons. People always bring traits for dealing with conditions, nothing in the likes of utility, the only exception happens to be Warrior Shake It Off but that's yet their only option that gives any value out of the rest, it could be argued that the old Shake It Off was better anyway, the ammo changes in general are simply god awful for anything they've applied it that's sustain, if it's for offense? It works great which displays why having slightly lesser skills with lower CD is better than 2 uses with large CD's since it will used more pratically in combat rather than always be too much for the situation.

 

Funny that you bring Mending though, people use Mending because even if used perfectly Healing Signet is horribad.

 

However Treesong? You mean the skill that allow Vindicator to somewhat have a chance to pressure back? Yeah, 5 conditions is nothing, the healing was the issue but they had to mess it up here yet again by going for a double wammy on numbers and CD, if you think 3 clears on such a scripted profession is a lot, you don't want to hear about Ventari, does anyone complain about Ventari ability to spam condi cleanses? I don't see it.

 

Why for you think?

 

Because even with condi cleanse in spam you can't achieve anything else until you fall from the pressure that will never be ending because keeping on the offensive is not something that's particularly difficult against something that can only be so defensive, you could say that's for the sake of  "counter spec" but what's the counter spec to the oppressor if this one ain't? You can't say it universally it would counter all condi specs because that would imply all condi specs were always the same to begin with which is not true.

 

Anet/pros hardly understands actual Revenant anyway, it's been failure after failure to balance or change it in anyway. Ancient Echo was the last positive change, they had to nerf many things before nerfing the anything right. Actual potshots.

 

4. Necromancers of any sort have been a dominant force since 2020 changes, for good reason. Anything that relies on Weakness to be any good have bounced back because while damage is lower to the point where Weakness actually means something, using Stability also has more relevance rather than being hit for a 10k rock from Rampage with Stability.

 

5. If I had to base anything on MAT exclusively it's not so much of what and which professions but rather what are the team fight compositions and how do they navigate around the map since you hardly get to see any 1v1's to evaluate individual performance of a professions and the rest is rotations entirely.

 

We can clearly see that nerfing things based on pick rates hasn't done anything but kill one profession after another, if it's not for core suffering the most which people that theorycraft and couldn't care less of the min maxing potential of individual performance when teamfights are the leading events in PvP matches. Those are usually so chaotic that well timed skills hardly matters and spam of anything is what we always see and when Anet nerf it's usually to kill viability, not to balance.

 

You could be the most overpowered bunker in the game and it wouldn't be enough to stop a smarter team.

 

6. Your comparisons don't nullify the fact that condition damage focuses on intensity with multiple hits that are more often focused and not delivering larger blows because if that was actually the way condition is it would be extremely different to play, in fact less spammy and more like an actual counter part of direct damage.

 

Condition the way they keep adding it has never been be intuitive like Power, you could play it that way, least the way I know Core Engineer does it for an example, but you fight anything in general with condi? It's a key mash with hardly any setup, not having an equal immunity similar that stabiliy does to soft-cc is the main reason it exist.

 

7. Power is dominant because focusing as a team yields instant irreversible damage, focusing as condition leaves too much room for recovery in a team fight but that doesn't mean it sucks esp with soft-ccs. You can say that's because condi damage lacks but nah, you could have it super broken high and unless it instantly wipes someones entire health pool, the chances to survive are still higher because DoT. 

 

Although funny that if in a power meta you don't take all the clears you get absolutely wiped anyway. So all and all if it was for not having such a free real estate casting of conditions (be damage or not), maybe just maybe the meta would be changing a little considering you wouldn't have to worry so much about being soaked in 10 conditions to which you can't do anything but clear and that's where the problem lies.

 

Why is there no equivalent of Stability or Weakness in Conditions? DoT is not an excuse it doesn't need critical damage to be effective, clears aren't either since by design without them condi is a dominant force, Resolution hardly does anything if you don't have clears, Expertise doesn't exist yet you have Fury that could make up for that.

I made this topic the idea in mind that we don't need to nerf anything, we need better mechanics.

 

Reminder by the title you can see that this isn't just for conditions but buffs being lacking as well, I'm sure anyone can agree that being soaked in delibitating conditions without any form of counter other than speccing entirely for clears is bad gameplay and while you may just disagree over and over, there's the reminder that if Resolution/Resistance were more useful, you'd see less clears and more reactive gameplay with timing mattering more because those two boons would be actually something worthwhile to invest over just clears, to imagine Berserker Stance actually being useful again is only a dream, imagining that Mallyx can actually do something without being so overpowered vs conditions, seems like it's too much to ask, just have dead skills all over the game instead.

[Shao.7236]

45 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Weakness is fine. The only reason you're having problems with it is due Vindi is hardcountered by, which was called it since the begining.

   This is not Devil May Cry, Dark Souls or Elden Ring, games with a broad access to evasion due other limitations balance the dificulty, as low sources of healing, regen, small windows to burst bosses with complex attack patterns, etc. This is a game designed to have only a couple of evades across all game modes, with limited access to extra i-frames. When you design a class to circunvent (Daredevil) or fall short (Mirage) in that basic schedule problems arise. That was known, and ANet still still insisted in releasing the Vindicator, a spec around the concept of a single evade (which is also needed for other functions which conflict with the main concept of using evades to prevent damage). And then they doubled the endurance cost...

   Of course, since is Rev and ANet, they tried to compensate it buffing the numbers, which of course delivered obscene results. They nerfed (as they should) and now the reality already called months ago emerges: enjoy the train wreck. 

   Just realize that Vindi is not well designed to PvP/WvW, which isn't anything new: some specs are really terrible in those game modes, since ANet barely supports or care about them.

I'm fairly certain that just the ease of spamming soft-cc with nothing else but clears as a counter is an issue on it's own still. I'm talking from the PoV of existing specs and not exclusively new stuff because a lot of it is still ovetuned. I can still beat harbs but how long should it take? Stalemates are ok but when it comes down to me having to wait for 30 seconds because I don't want to instant die to damaging conditions, what can you do?

 

Why am I not allowed to go on about it with "I had this buff that counters your unthoughtful actions to delibitate me" but on the other party it's "just wait/clear weakness" like I had the choice to be constantly unable to deal crit damage when already my sustain depends from it, this is why having large cleansing skills is not OP in the slightest because it punishes spamming users instead of playing the actual DoT in causing you with the clears to know when you should use it or not and if you do then there is the opportunity for the condi user to go hard on you.

 

Treesong was OP but not for the reasons it was nerfed and why Anet wrongly nerfed it, like back to back making it longer and less effective is not how anything should be nerfed. Keeping a general effectiveness while nerfing it's healing/cd would have been better for the receiving end and giving as it doesn't defeat it's purpose on the profession mechanics.

 

You stop the spam clear or the massive healing and you have basically fixed a big hole of opportunities in the problem.

 

 

[Amadeus.5687]

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

1. I have all the rights to assume that if I forgot something it can kindly be brought to attention and validate even further the consistency of the topic in relation to the main idea or not which actually tests the water further for the idea anyway. I wanted to make the most out of my time while I am not looking and thus what I did so that I don't have to wait for answers later.

a tall order for a PvP community

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

2. Not really an argument but a mention, protection is often applied on CC or after so many mechanics that we don't need to talk about it. Also it's way more common on the conversion scale compared Resolution. Everyone applies vulnerability. Anyway 3 seconds of Resolution definitely does not combat the same 3 seconds of Protection would, not counting Critical Damage and the chances for it nor does Condition Damage have to worry about damage being uncertain, it's always consistent, indifferent and stacks in intensity, because it can be cleansed doesn't meant it's exempt of similar factors, especially because it can be covered with other much more influence conditions that can be applied recklessly which goes back about Soft-CCs and Resistance again.

I agree that there is more sources of protection, there is also a lot more power damage going around.
Whatever the 3 seconds of protection does more then the 3 seconds of resolution really depends on the given situation?
Condition damage does not need to worry about crits, but we need to worry about cleanses. Power does not have to worry about ALL of their dmg being removed from one skill. Like you keep negating how big an impact condition cleanse is.
I can play 100% flawless, set up the best condition burst on a player and one click negates everything. If I did the same on a power build that player would be dead. 

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

3. You see aside Healing Skills which should mostly wipe all pressure, unless "utility" has some form of synergy that brings condition hate, nothing is ever being used. Ranger Survival utility has always been busted from the very start and haven't been changed for the longest time while most professions have been shafted for whatever reasons. People always bring traits for dealing with conditions, nothing in the likes of utility, the only exception happens to be Warrior Shake It Off but that's yet their only option that gives any value out of the rest, it could be argued that the old Shake It Off was better anyway, the ammo changes in general are simply god awful for anything they've applied it that's sustain, if it's for offense? It works great which displays why having slightly lesser skills with lower CD is better than 2 uses with large CD's since it will used more pratically in combat rather than always be too much for the situation.

Your right that most builds don't even bother bringing pure condition removal utility; Because they don't have to. There is only a few condition damage builds going around atm. And most specs can easy manage what condition damage that goes around with sigils and trait picks. That's not a matter about the utility necessary being bad, and more a matter about you don't need to.
That said both the meta Willbender, Untamed and Mechanist build rocks one (That's a stunbreak on top of it).
Also as I mentioned earlier; There is sooo much AoE condition removal going on, that you have even less incentive to pick up your own.

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

However Treesong? You mean the skill that allow Vindicator to somewhat have a chance to pressure back? Yeah, 5 conditions is nothing, the healing was the issue but they had to mess it up here yet again by going for a double wammy on numbers and CD, if you think 3 clears on such a scripted profession is a lot, you don't want to hear about Ventari, does anyone complain about Ventari ability to spam condi cleanses? I don't see it.

 

5 condition is a lot, even 3 condition is a lot. And those 3 condition it remove now is also still AoE.  3 condition removed every 8 second can shut down pretty much any condition pressure when you combo it with evades, blocks ect.

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Anet/pros hardly understands actual Revenant anyway, it's been failure after failure to balance or change it in anyway. Ancient Echo was the last positive change, they had to nerf many things before nerfing the anything right. Actual potshots.

 

4. Necromancers of any sort have been a dominant force since 2020 changes, for good reason. Anything that relies on Weakness to be any good have bounced back because while damage is lower to the point where Weakness actually means something, using Stability also has more relevance rather than being hit for a 10k rock from Rampage with Stability.

I mean this is so rich, revenant have been meta since HoT. 

 

They have been dominating the roaming damage dealer role every single season. This is the first time they ain't dominant, because Willbender is the same high damage mobility but they completely negate conditions. Which were one of the few things that could give the good ol' power herald some issues. I start to see why you complain about conditions.
And looking at the forums, reddit and ingame it seems like most people find Willbender really unhealthy atm. 

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

5. If I had to base anything on MAT exclusively it's not so much of what and which professions but rather what are the team fight compositions and how do they navigate around the map since you hardly get to see any 1v1's to evaluate individual performance of a professions and the rest is rotations entirely.

 

We can clearly see that nerfing things based on pick rates hasn't done anything but kill one profession after another, if it's not for core suffering the most which people that theorycraft and couldn't care less of the min maxing potential of individual performance when teamfights are the leading events in PvP matches. Those are usually so chaotic that well timed skills hardly matters and spam of anything is what we always see and when Anet nerf it's usually to kill viability, not to balance.

I were simply pointing out that nothing is immune to power damage.
That said I agree with this statement. 

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

6. Your comparisons don't nullify the fact that condition damage focuses on intensity with multiple hits that are more often focused and not delivering larger blows because if that was actually the way condition is it would be extremely different to play, in fact less spammy and more like an actual counter part of direct damage.

 

Condition the way they keep adding it has never been be intuitive like Power, you could play it that way, least the way I know Core Engineer does it for an example, but you fight anything in general with condi? It's a key mash with hardly any setup, not having an equal immunity similar that stabiliy does to soft-cc is the main reason it exist.

 

Again this is just... Wrong. Like it's a false narrative.
When I play my condition damage ranger I have few key abilities I use to deliver my condition with and the rest of the fight is about trying to setup these key skills. It's not different then power. Like I rely on my hard CC and soft CC as much as the power build to deliver it. 
Your right that condition damage build over time, they are DoT after all. But they are still delivered by key skills. Take shortbow again; You have auto attack that does bleeding, you have #2 which is your dmg skill, #3 is a defensive skill, skill #4 is a soft CC and #5 is a hard CC. There is not "spitting out conditions" here. You try to land #4 or #5 to close up shotgun with #2.

I find condition damage very intuitive to both fight against and as, and I have played it since the game released. Core condition Engineer which I played the most out of everything being no different. 
As I said earlier; Condition damage is a much about setting up combos as power is. 

Stability is a much as an issue for condi as power, you need to land your hard CC aswell. Resistance while active negates soft CC completely (beside blind and weakness), soft CC can be easy removed by the abundance of condition cleanse that by far out number stun breaks and on top of that there is plenty of traits that reduce their duration or complelty negate specific ones like immobilize.
On top of that you can still take action while under soft CC and use abilities, which gives you room to do counter play. Far more options then hard CC. 

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

7. Power is dominant because focusing as a team yields instant irreversible damage, focusing as condition leaves too much room for recovery in a team fight but that doesn't mean it sucks esp with soft-ccs. You can say that's because condi damage lacks but nah, you could have it super broken high and unless it instantly wipes someones entire health pool, the chances to survive are still higher because DoT. 

 

Although funny that if in a power meta you don't take all the clears you get absolutely wiped anyway. So all and all if it was for not having such a free real estate casting of conditions (be damage or not), maybe just maybe the meta would be changing a little considering you wouldn't have to worry so much about being soaked in 10 conditions to which you can't do anything but clear and that's where the problem lies.

Power is also dominant cause its simply stronger and far easier to play. When I face a Willbender he can literally just ignore what I do and pressure me to the max. Cause he can manage any Soft CC with F3 and ignore conditions with F2 (being hyperbolic here). 
The damage you take from power is instant, you don't get a "ahh kitten I missplayed, guess I just press this button to fix my mistakes". You get that vs conditions. With most condition removal being instant you don't even have to stop up, you can keep applying your pressure and just remove what gets tossed back at you.

And yes conditions can kill you, you know what also always can kill you and you can't take a counter for? Power. Like what is it with people and being to annoyed about they can actually can die to Dots?
You don't get hit by conditions randomly, they don't just spawn out of no where. Just like power skill you. have. to. land. your. skills

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Why is there no equivalent of Stability or Weakness in Conditions? DoT is not an excuse it doesn't need critical damage to be effective, clears aren't either since by design without them condi is a dominant force, Resolution hardly does anything if you don't have clears, Expertise doesn't exist yet you have Fury that could make up for that.

What are you even on about here with stability? Stability is not a power counter. It's a counter vs hard CC which apply to any hard CC.
And why is there no weakness for condition damage? I don't know, why is there no condition cleanse for power? Why can't I just you know press a button to complete negate the last 2 seconds of power damage I should have taken?
Power is already by far the more dominant damage type, even with weakness in the game.
Heck condition damage suffers far more in meta where there is plenty of support, because they can both negate our damage with cleanse AND recover the damage dealt with healing. Where they only get to heal damage done by power.

 

 

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Shadow Shot on Thief is the best example of that and it's no wonder much of the other weapon sets haven't made it to be as good even though they are but at a higher skill ceiling anyway. Being as simple as having to never having to time anything right and just unblockable blind someone over and over with instant damage, why bother for timely evades?

Also just to finish this; Shadow Shot is an example of the core design of Thief and initiative. They get to spam the same skill over cause they don't have CD's. That's a specific design issue on Thief, not a general argument that be used for blinds in the game.
Also you know that you can remove blind... by just doing a auto attack right?


I start to feel like this entire topic is just you that have Issue with some specific elements cause of how they impact your preferred profession and try to make it a general problem. Which it ain't.

I don't disagree with you that buffing stuff instead of always nerfing stuff can be the better options. But there is plenty of tools counters to condition already in the game.