Why keep pitting different groups of players against each other?

[Hesione.9412]

We had the DE meta - casual players versus players who want organised runs with sub squads and don't want casual players

 

We now have:

OS for the 2nd episode of LS1 - casual and/or PvE players versus WvW or PvP players

 

Why keep forcing two sets of players to combine in the same area? Is this the new path for GW2?

[Parasite.5389]

honestly i was pretty nervous going in to Obsidian sanctum(i went in there a few weeks ago to check some vendors and there was a group of players camping my worlds entry) but when i went in for the achievement i actually found players from all three worlds helping each other out.

members from [PINK] were grouping up and making portals to help with some of the trickier sections, and people were being super considerate in the dark room and trying to avoid throwing torches on other players.

it almost felt like Dark souls, with people bowing before dueling

[Astralporing.1957]

It's not new. Like you said, it goes back to LS1. Somehow at some point long ago Anet got the idea that mixing players with completely different playstyles together will make them "widen their horizons", and will have no negative consequences whatsoever. And now, after many, many years of constantly being shown that it works the exact opposite, they still think that if they only try it once again, this time it will work out differently.

I could mention a certain famous Einstein quote here, but instead i will just use a different one: Experience is a wonderful thing. It lets us recognize a mistake after we have done it again.

[Aodlop.1907]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Somehow at some point long ago Anet got the idea that mixing players with completely different playstyles together will make them "widen their horizons"

Well at least they grew out of it, unlike Blizzard who've been forcing PvP player to farm PvE content to stay relevant in their preferred game mode for like 6 years now. 

With Shadowlands, they've even forced PvE players to engage in a PvE activity that not even themselves enjoy (Torghast) so they could keep up for dungeons & raids.

...Aaaand this is why I'm playing GW2 right now. Anet may not be perfect, but they at least respect their players most of the time.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Well at least they grew out of it

That's the point - they didn't. they no longer mix PvE and PvP players together, but that's primarily because their interest in PvP content has waned. Instead, their new modus operandi is mixing more casual players with more hardcore ones. DE being the lastest (but not the only) example - there's also stuff like needing strikes for turtle, etc.

[Dante.1508]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the point - they didn't. they no longer mix PvE and PvP players together, but that's primarily because their interest in PvP content has waned. Instead, their new modus operandi is mixing more casual players with more hardcore ones. DE being the lastest (but not the only) example - there's also stuff like needing strikes for turtle, etc.

IBS and EoD would show that Anet hasn't grown out of it yet lol

[Donari.5237]

I had to pause a moment because OS wasn't in my list of things to do.  But then I remembered that I have a lot of legacy achieves from the first time LS1 was here and then the repressed memory of having to get help in a zerg swarming the jp came back to me.  Back then we still had servers, so shout out to my Tarnished Coast helpers on that one.

But the point is that isn't a new path, that's the original achieves set from the early years.  I suppose they brought back all the achieves due to many complaints for a long time that veterans have a pool of AP new players cannot get.  So now at least the LS1 AP is universally and permanently available, including the less fun parts of getting it.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Donari.5237

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Don't forget the "obvious, without a doubt" trolling the Risen Wizard for yet another collection that involves it.

 

However, my experience in Obsidian Sanctum was quite wholesome. I led a bunch of players from the other teams through the dark tunnel the rest of the way through.

[Khisanth.2948]

because it is just re-enabling the original achievement

There is also https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Fountain

[Linken.6345]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the point - they didn't. they no longer mix PvE and PvP players together, but that's primarily because their interest in PvP content has waned. Instead, their new modus operandi is mixing more casual players with more hardcore ones. DE being the lastest (but not the only) example - there's also stuff like needing strikes for turtle, etc.

Just because there is 1 aetherblade cache in wvw dont make them force people together you can get meta achive without that can you not?

[Danikat.8537]

7 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

honestly i was pretty nervous going in to Obsidian sanctum(i went in there a few weeks ago to check some vendors and there was a group of players camping my worlds entry) but when i went in for the achievement i actually found players from all three worlds helping each other out.

members from [PINK] were grouping up and making portals to help with some of the trickier sections, and people were being super considerate in the dark room and trying to avoid throwing torches on other players.

it almost felt like Dark souls, with people bowing before dueling

That's been my experience any time there's an incentive for lots of people to go to Obsidian Sanctum. It's not actually a good place for WvW so the majority of people there will be looking to do the puzzle and will stay out of each other's way, or even help when they can. I've seen players from opposing servers leading each other through the dark room, which is an interesting challenge because the torches burn enemy players, so you either have to take turns (and hope you remember the path if you're following) or keep getting burned and healing as you go.

When it's less populated it's a bit riskier, but I've still done it alongside enemy players who didn't attack at all (and of course I didn't attack them). I've also done it without seeing anyone else the entire time. There's a slight risk you'll encounter someone who will try to fight but it's not guarenteed.

Also if they do attack it's worth fighting back, even if you don't normally do PvP. As I said earlier it's not a good place for WvW combat so anyone fighting there is likely to either be trying to complete the puzzle themselves and just taking the opportunity, but won't want to risk dying, or they're someone who knows they're so bad at PvP they couldn't even get kills in a zerg group and their only chance is to camp isolated PvE players who aren't prepared to fight but also can't run away. In either case they're likely to break off at the first sign of resistance, and if it's the second one may even leave the map entirely.

[Erise.5614]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not new. Like you said, it goes back to LS1. Somehow at some point long ago Anet got the idea that mixing players with completely different playstyles together will make them "widen their horizons", and will have no negative consequences whatsoever. And now, after many, many years of constantly being shown that it works the exact opposite, they still think that if they only try it once again, this time it will work out differently.

I could mention a certain famous Einstein quote here, but instead i will just use a different one: Experience is a wonderful thing. It lets us recognize a mistake after we have done it again.

The thing is, it's even possible to mix audiences and have them widen their horizons if it's done well.

Two examples being a few guild organized meta cycles every weekend on both EU and NA that just run meta event after meta event for ~6 hours. They offer voice communication, they offer help in form of explaining mechanics and builds and they offer entry into their community where people can join trainings for more advanced gameplay. Absolutely fantastic stuff! Farm open world and be able to opt into more out of curiosity! Most of the metas they do basically don't fail without such organization but they streamline a series of events and offer real value on top. 

Or take strikes. The 3 easier strikes of both formats really are a good introduction to instanced content where you can bring anyone with any gear and succeed just fine. Get them into the thrill of that content. And if they want more they can come ask, you can tell them the requirements and help them get ready. Beautiful stuff. I suspect that's also why there's a lot of "everyone welcome" groups or "help me get my turtle" groups filling up quite quickly. You can be nice in a couple of minutes, even get something out of it (shards and a bit of loot) and can share a nice experience with others. 

What doesn't work is tricking people into content that's harder than they are ready for and hoping it works out. Content needs clear classifications. Open world meta events should have an incredibly small chance of failure with incredibly obvious reasons for that failure. And that reason must not be "DPS". If ANet wants to offer harder, large scale open world content it should get a new name and be presented differently. So no one runs into it accidentally and the actually experienced failure rates are expected.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Cuks.8241]

You do understand this is not new content? Its LS1. 

People want LS1. Anet gives LS1. People complain. 

[Aodlop.1907]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the point - they didn't. they no longer mix PvE and PvP players together,

Good.

[Hesione.9412]

7 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

You do understand this is not new content? Its LS1. 

People want LS1. Anet gives LS1. People complain. 

They didn't bring back LS1. They brought back a version of LS1 that was linear that they could implement. Given that this isn't exactly LS1, then other content could change as well.

You're also assuming that people who asked for LS1 are the exact same people who don't like elements of it, like me. I didn't ask for it to come back. Now it's back, it's continuing the Anet desire to pit different types of people against each other.

[Erise.5614]

52 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

They didn't bring back LS1. They brought back a version of LS1 that was linear that they could implement. Given that this isn't exactly LS1, then other content could change as well.

You're also assuming that people who asked for LS1 are the exact same people who don't like elements of it, like me. I didn't ask for it to come back. Now it's back, it's continuing the Anet desire to pit different types of people against each other.

Isn't it just for achievement hunting of LWS1?

Like, I get that not everyone will enjoy everything in that content. But if it's just for an achievement / title then what's the difference between ANet arbitrarily keeping certain aspects of LWS1 locked vs not doing the parts you don't enjoy? Besides taking that content away from the people who did ask for it? 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Hesione.9412]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Isn't it just for achievement hunting of LWS1?

Like, I get that not everyone will enjoy everything in that content. But if it's just for an achievement / title then what's the difference between ANet arbitrarily keeping certain aspects of LWS1 locked vs not doing the parts you don't enjoy? Besides taking that content away from the people who did ask for it? 

I don't know what your point is.

This thread is specifically about Anet implementing content that pits players against each other.

The problems have started: 

 

[Chichimec.9364]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

...What doesn't work is tricking people into content that's harder than they are ready for and hoping it works out. Content needs clear classifications. Open world meta events should have an incredibly small chance of failure with incredibly obvious reasons for that failure. And that reason must not be "DPS". If ANet wants to offer harder, large scale open world content it should get a new name and be presented differently. So no one runs into it accidentally and the actually experienced failure rates are expected.

While I very much agree with what you are saying here, I would make one addition. What also doesn't work is trying to force people into content harder than they can or want to deal with. That's what led to the initial DE meta debacle and the resulting civil war that erupted here on the forum between hardcore and casual players. Your take, that "content needs clear classification" makes sense to me. The broader the range of players the game appeals to, the stronger the game is, and that benefits everyone. GW2 had been doing that by offering widely accessible game play in the open world while making clearly defined harder content available to those who wanted it. Heck, fractals even let players decide what graduated level of difficulty they want to play on. Why Anet has begun swerving away from that model is beyond me. Why alienate players, either casual or hardcore, rather than keeping clearly defined content available for everyone?

Edited May 29, 2022 by Chichimec.9364

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, Hesione.9412 said:

I don't know what your point is.

This thread is specifically about Anet implementing content that pits players against each other.

The problems have started: 

 

I understand that and I do agree with the premise. See my above comment. 

But I also view LWS1 differently. As far as I can tell Caching Out and the OS JP are not part of the new additions to achievements. They just made all old achievements obtainable again. There is no new implementation pitting players against each other. The decision ANet had was between removing an old achievement from the release vs re-enabling the achievement.

And in this case, I don't think it's particularly fair to demand removal of old content.

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

While I very much agree with what you are saying here, I would make one addition. What also doesn't work is trying to force people into content harder than they can or want to deal with. That's what led to the initial DE meta debacle and the resulting civil war that erupted here on the forum between hardcore and casual players. Your take, that "content needs clear classification" makes sense to me. The broader the range of players the game appeals to, the stronger the game is, and that is better for everyone. GW2 had been doing that by offering widely accessible game play in the open world while making clearly defined harder content available to those who wanted. Heck, fractals even let players decide what graduated level of difficulty they want to play on. Why Anet has begun swerving away from that is beyond me. Why alienate players, either casual or hardcore, rather than keeping clearly defined content available for everyone?

That's exactly what I was trying to reference ; ) 

DE was framed as part of the story and as normal meta event. While being intended as a harder encounter with a higher failure rate than other, comparable meta events. This is misleading and not good. It's tricking people into content that's harder than they expected and possibly harder than they are comfortable with. Made worse through story achievements and the turtle being locked behind it. Making wrong assumptions about it even more likely. 

[Nico.9361]

2 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

You're also assuming that people who asked for LS1 are the exact same people who don't like elements of it, like me. I didn't ask for it to come back. Now it's back, it's continuing the Anet desire to pit different types of people against each other.

How does the comeback of LS1 pit ppl against each other?

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

How does the comeback of LS1 pit ppl against each other?

One of the achievement chains requires a WvW jumping puzzle that currently has some players intentionally prevent others from completing it on some servers. Thereby getting players who are currently following JP / exploration content into a negative PvP situation. 

Edit: And just to clarify. I think LWS1 should exist in its current form. Removing achievements because of this is not a good solution. But the choice to not do that anymore was certainly a good one. Not having WvW players do exploration content and not having explorers visit WvW. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Erise.5614
Clarification

[Nico.9361]

On Ruins of Rurmia, I've had a completely different experience. At one point there were couple of ppl from different worlds jumping alongside each other. The only dmg dealt was from skills giving us swiftness.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

The thing is, it's even possible to mix audiences and have them widen their horizons if it's done well.

Two examples being a few guild organized meta cycles every weekend on both EU and NA that just run meta event after meta event for ~6 hours. They offer voice communication, they offer help in form of explaining mechanics and builds and they offer entry into their community where people can join trainings for more advanced gameplay. Absolutely fantastic stuff! Farm open world and be able to opt into more out of curiosity! Most of the metas they do basically don't fail without such organization but they streamline a series of events and offer real value on top. 

Or take strikes. The 3 easier strikes of both formats really are a good introduction to instanced content where you can bring anyone with any gear and succeed just fine. Get them into the thrill of that content. And if they want more they can come ask, you can tell them the requirements and help them get ready. Beautiful stuff. I suspect that's also why there's a lot of "everyone welcome" groups or "help me get my turtle" groups filling up quite quickly. You can be nice in a couple of minutes, even get something out of it (shards and a bit of loot) and can share a nice experience with others. 

What doesn't work is tricking people into content that's harder than they are ready for and hoping it works out. Content needs clear classifications. Open world meta events should have an incredibly small chance of failure with incredibly obvious reasons for that failure. And that reason must not be "DPS". If ANet wants to offer harder, large scale open world content it should get a new name and be presented differently. So no one runs into it accidentally and the actually experienced failure rates are expected.

Indeed. The difference between the examples that work, and those that do not is how optional they are.

Guild organized meta cycles in OW are fine, because that content does not need such level of organization. As such, there's no conflict at all between players. If someone gets interested in higher level play? That's good. But if they don't, that's fine too, nobody gets hurt.

And the easy strikes are a completely self-contained system, where only people that are interested go in, (and where people that find it unfun have no reason to go, so won't feel forced into it). Even the runic armor that is by default obtained from strikes has an alternative (albeit quite expensive) non-strike option.

It's when game/story design tries to funnel OW players into more hardcore content, or PvE players into a PvP one (or the other way around, btw) that issues appear.

The Obsidian Sanctum case was the first such major case, but definitely wasn't the only one. The WvW seasons, for example, were in fact so bad that Anet gave up on that idea, because it ended up hurting that content far more than it helped. The first SPvP season year coupled with the legendary backpack (and Anet telling people they'd better do it in the first year, because the mode of acquisition will change later for a worse one - hint: it didn't change) led to a massive burnout among the semi-casual PvPers and significantly decreased population of that mode for years.

Things like that happened with great frequency, with the results always ending up negative. And yet Anet still keeps trying, because this time they will definitely do it right.

[Erise.5614]

25 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Indeed. The difference between the examples that work, and those that do not is how optional they are.

Guild organized meta cycles in OW are fine, because that content does not need such level of organization. As such, there's no conflict at all between players. If someone gets interested in higher level play? That's good. But if they don't, that's fine too, nobody gets hurt.

And the easy strikes are a completely self-contained system, where only people that are interested go in, (and where people that find it unfun have no reason to go, so won't feel forced into it). Even the runic armor that is by default obtained from strikes has an alternative (albeit quite expensive) non-strike option.

It's when game/story design tries to funnel OW players into more hardcore content, or PvE players into a PvP one (or the other way around, btw) that issues appear.

The Obsidian Sanctum case was the first such major case, but definitely wasn't the only one. The WvW seasons, for example, were in fact so bad that Anet gave up on that idea, because it ended up hurting that content far more than it helped. The first SPvP season year coupled with the legendary backpack (and Anet telling people they'd better do it in the first year, because the mode of acquisition will change later for a worse one - hint: it didn't change) led to a massive burnout among the semi-casual PvPers and significantly decreased population of that mode for years.

Things like that happened with great frequency, with the results always ending up negative. And yet Anet still keeps trying, because this time they will definitely do it right.

Fully agreed. I wanted to point out that mixing different subcommunities within the game is possible and can be positive.

That it's not inherent hatred between different parts of the community. But negative dynamics that result out of how people are pushed to play together that necessarily leads to frustration and bad experiences. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Erise.5614