Perma Boon + Stacking Meta and Why I'm not willing to participate in Endgame Group Content

[Diktator.8927]

I wont go much into the new patch notes, as it's obvious what the general opinion is. However this has made me think about the state of professions and combat overall.

There's something about the general direction that the devs are taking, which just makes me not want to get into the PvE Endgame group content (even more so now).

Boons. Or rather perma boons combined with stacking.

So from my understanding, they're trying to make every profession have a reliable access to boons, mainly Quickness and Alacrity. I generally dislike having every class being able to do anything, as takes away even more from class identity. Besides, meta builds will still exist, and certain elite specs will be taken over others (due to them also doing a lot of dps, being tanky, easy to play, etc.).
But that isn't my biggest issue with this. 

My biggest issues are the stacking meta and boon uptimes. Pretty much you stack on top of each other, where you get access to permanent Might, Fury, Quickness and Alacrity. It just looks dull and boring. At this point just give permanent boons to everyone once they enter the Raid/Strike/Fractal, there's virtually no difference. 

Instead of being buffs to your character, boons don't feel like buffs at all, rather as permanent stat increases, as you are expected to have them on you permanently. Having boons permanently becomes the norm, the normality. You only notice them when you DON'T have them up. Having boosted attack speed, reduced cooldowns, more damage and crit is just normal and expected to have. Besides, all these boons increase your DPS, which makes a HUGE difference if you don't have them.

In my opinion, boons should be temporary buffs to your power (afaik, they worked in this way long, long ago), not things that you expect to have on you at all times. Imagine if boons were few and far between, only lasted for a few seconds, with longer cooldowns. There would be strategy involved in using those boons. Maybe you need to burst something down quickly, maybe the boss is incapacitated for a few seconds and you use the opportunity to boon up and do max dps possible in that short period of time. Defensive boons like Aegis and Stability could be used to counter/avoid certain boss attacks, instead of having the boons up constantly without much effort. It would introduce so much more fun, strategy, and possibly unique mechanics.

Things like combo fields and finishers, unique class design, etc. are simply irrelevant now, as the focus is solely on boons. Classes are being homogenized into boon bots

It feels like the game is too deep into this already though, that I doubt we'll ever see a change.

 

At least the solution to the stacking meta can be done without such large changes. One way to do it would be to simply make boon application Party or Raid wide while in a group, that works up to 2000 or so max range, to avoid exploits (For example if you are in WvW and you sit in your base while applying boons to people in your group that are on the other side of the map - that simply shouldn't happen). Or if you don't like that, have it only be raid wide in instanced PvE content. There are ways to tackle this "issue", but the devs (possibly the playerbase too) don't want to / don't care.


How does it all tie into me not wanting to participate in endgame group PvE content? Well if the only things that matter are my DPS numbers and boons I provide, then I have no interest in that sort of content. My profession/elite spec/build isn't going to be different from anyone else's, there isn't going to be unique stuff I can do that others cannot. Everyone is able to do everything, no class is unique. It doesn't help that certain professions are favored, and are able to do everything at once, making them automatically stronger than the rest. They need to sacrifice less in order to give those boons, compared to other professions.

 

I know a lot of you might disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm talking from a newer player's perspective, and I realize many of you like, or have grown to like things how they are now over the years.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[Einsof.1457]

Sounds like GW2 may not be for you. Good luck out there.

[Mikali.9651]

100% agree.

 

Once I thought about how game would feel if toughness wasn't requirement for aggro, and what if we just removed AoE boon application, as well as boon duration and field blasts. Blind, Weakness, Healing, Barrier, CC, these things would stay.

 

I didn't think about it for too long  because that felt too good and difference between that dream and current gw2 version just made me sad. Too sad.

 

Such overcomplication for basically no gain. It's just a noise. 

 

Please, at this point just let us use new Anvil to gain all boons for 12 hours as well. Seriously, restart is needed, this makes no sense anymore, even Anet is lost in its own design.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Mikali.9651

[Diktator.8927]

11 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Sounds like GW2 may not be for you. Good luck out there.

Well that's a bold statement. Currently I have no interest in any other MMOs out there. GW2 is a great game overall and I do enjoy playing it, so I wouldn't say it's not for me. If it wasn't for me, then I wouldn't bother investing my time in playing it, and especially in writing out this post.

It's just that I don't want to participate in a certain type of content due to certain meta/mechanics being required.
I don't see why wanting things to improve is a bad thing. The meta was created due to updates like the one we are about to receive on Tuesday. Boons worked differently in the past, they got changed over time. Things change, doesn't mean it's always for the better (again, read yesterday's patch notes).

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[Einsof.1457]

Just now, Diktator.8927 said:

Well that's a bold statement. Currently I have no interest in any other MMOs out there. GW2 is a great game overall and I do enjoy playing it, so I wouldn't say it's not for me.

It's just that I don't want to participate in a certain type of content due to certain meta/mechanics being required.
I don't see why wanting things to improve is a bad thing. The meta was created due to updates like the one we are about to receive on Tuesday. Boons worked differently in the past, they got changed over time. Things change, doesn't mean it's always for the better (again, read yesterday's patch notes).

 

Your definition of "improving" the game is to completely change the game.  

[Diktator.8927]

6 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Your definition of "improving" the game is to completely change the game.  

How is any of what I've suggested COMPLETELY changing the game. If we go by your logic, the devs have already completely changed the game and are actively doing it right now.

[Ragnar.4257]

Entirely agree. Boons should be short, powerful, buffs that you use strategically at the right moment. Not things that you just passively have up 100% of the time.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Indeed, boons should be short-lived buffs to exploit enemy weakness, yet here we are with this perma boons circus.
The biggest problem is that the new content is also made and "balanced" around perma boons.
IMO, if A-net want it to be "perma boons", they should just go the same way as other MMORPGs with castable buffs that will last for 30min+ instead of this clowning.

[Diktator.8927]

13 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Entirely agree. Boons should be short, powerful, buffs that you use strategically at the right moment. Not things that you just passively have up 100% of the time.

 

13 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Indeed, boons should be short-lived buffs to exploit enemy weakness, yet here we are with this perma boons circus.

Yep that's basically TL:DR.

13 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The biggest problem is that the new content is also made and "balanced" around perma boons.
IMO, if A-net want it to be "perma boons", they should just go the same way as other MMORPGs with castable buffs that will last for 30min+ instead of this clowning.

And that's the thing. If they completely removed those boons from the game, and balanced the content around that, it would be the same thing. They don't provide any meaningful mechanics.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Diktator.8927

[Rishnock.6230]

The "Boon Applier" role, or the "Boon Support" is a defined, and specialized role. GW2 has struggled to have group content where team members feel that they bring something unique, unlike other games where you can feel that you are the tank, or the healer, or the ranged, or the melee. 

 

The game needs to provide the opportunity for players to have a specialized role in team based PvE

 

GW2 has found this in specialized critical boon support; Alac and Quick. What Anet is missing I think in this new "direction" is the feeling of specializing. 

 

There's room for improvement. I would even advocate for Fury being reworked to include expertise and turning it into a third critical boon.

 

And, I guess what is troubling OP is the stack requirement - boon apply is a small ranged AOE, so the team cannot range. Except, it is possible to have a ranged squad, and a ranged stack. Then in 10 man content you can have a ranged group and a melee group.

 

Specialization into distinct roles within a 5 man group is what Anet needs to design around.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

I always loved the class specific buffs. It always provided a diverse combo of different professions in group content to include their special buff. Made every profession feel relevant. Time warp (elite mes) used to be the only group quickness in the game. Made it really feel like the shaman's bloodlust in WoW. They Just completely ruined the uniqueness of all classes by continuously forcing new concepts, class designs, class roles and new class weapons (and making Them abit better then the previous one) when releasing new elite specialization 

[Asum.4960]

I see where you are coming from. The problem I see with spotty boon coverage is that while it sounds fun in theory with skillful buffing up at tactical moments is that these tactical moments, outside of Exposed, don't really exist and would require some major game/boss redesigns towards short opportunities of burst phases (for everybody to pop their offensive boons) between mechanical phases (where everybody pops their defensive boons and mechanics) to really make that feel satisfying - which would be a tremendous amount of work. 

As is, everything is designed around boon coverage and a sheer constant stream of DPS, you want permanent boon coverage and having dips in boons changing your skill activation times or cooldowns unpredictably, causing you to cancel cast all your skills or mess up your entire rotation or skill combinations, is just annoying, not fun. 

So in essence, while the alternative could be made really fun, I think the game has gone too far into this direction at this point, as it would require such a major overhaul to profession and boss/content design.

 

That said, just like spotty boon coverage needs special encounter design adjustments to make those boon burst windows the core gameplay loop in order to be fun and satisfying - the current perma boon meta needs design adjustments too in order to be fun and compelling, and I think that's where Anet has been and still is failing. 

The problem with this perma boon meta is that boons are almost all coincidental, that boon application itself isn't skillful or compelling instead. 

If every profession had their unique twist and theme of how to apply these same, permanent boons with each relying on their own unique gameplay loop to do so, I think this could feel a lot more fun too. 

 

If everybody just presses their indistinct boon button on Cooldown or pulses their passive boon aura though, yea, ofc that's going to feel pretty lame.

 

TL;DR:

Either have spotty boon coverage to be used tactically in a game designed around burst windows, or have permanent boon coverage in a game designed around unique and skillful gameplay applications of boons. 

Both just spotty boon coverage without opportunities to leverage those boons in a special way, nor permanent boon coverage without any interesting or unique ways to apply them feels particularly fun or compelling. 

 

Both design philosophies have opportunity to be good or bad, depending on execution.

At this point it's probably easier and more productive to push for interesting and unique boon applications, rather than a pretty much full game rework towards burst windows and phases (even if I personally would have preferred a more tactical approach to boons as well).

Edited June 25, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Cuks.8241]

You would need to completely change the game.

Boons are only 1 "problem" here. Healing skills are either aoe centred on caster or ground target aoes. The encounters are also designed in a way that there is alot of aoe dmg. So the natural response is you clump together to maximise healing. Its easier to revive people from down if all are clumped. You have aoe stun breaks, reflects... Again everything favours  clumping together.

I actually dont mind the the clumping. Yeah its sometimes funny to look at but I dont think it takes away from gameplay. And there are plenty mechanics where you need to split. And the fights are still mobile if designed that way.

And I actually like playing a healer in this game due to how it works. I hated healing for example in wow. In wow you were looking at the raid name plates 95 % of the fight spam healing. Basically your gameplay was heal, heal, heal,... x 1000, big heal, heal heal heal x 500, aoe heal, aoe heal, heal heal heal x 1000.  Here you can actually focus on other stuff while healing. You still dps, actively provide boons, you have more preventive options, not just reactive. Basically you have your dps/boon rotation, cc rotation on top of the healing.

[Kozumi.5816]

5 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Sounds like GW2 may not be for you. Good luck out there.

 GW2 isn't for a lot of people, then. Wildstar wasn't for a lot of people either, and that games playerbase said this exact same thing. Guess what? The game shut down.

[AliamRationem.5172]

It's a shame they didn't just go trinity with this game.  The support meta is so much crappier than standard trinity gameplay.  I'd much rather have a game where you need a proper tank and healer than one where every group I join is 50%+ firebrand and mechanist.

[Zyreva.1078]

6 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Entirely agree. Boons should be short, powerful, buffs that you use strategically at the right moment. Not things that you just passively have up 100% of the time.

This, 100%!

Unfortunately the game is moving into the exact opposite direction. And not just in PvE.

Edited June 25, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kozumi.5816]

37 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It's a shame they didn't just go trinity with this game.  The support meta is so much crappier than standard trinity gameplay.  I'd much rather have a game where you need a proper tank and healer than one where every group I join is 50%+ firebrand and mechanist.

Yeah, 100% agreed. This is just a worse trinity.

[Mongk.2458]

I agree with you. Since chronomancer endgame PvE were doomed because of boons. Instead of making them more strategic or boon sharing tied to combos, they just gave it to every class in the most lazy way possible, just to have it. I knew that the game would get to this stage when they capped bons to 5 man only.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Mongk.2458

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Indeed, boons should be short-lived buffs to exploit enemy weakness, yet here we are with this perma boons circus.
The biggest problem is that the new content is also made and "balanced" around perma boons.
IMO, if A-net want it to be "perma boons", they should just go the same way as other MMORPGs with castable buffs that will last for 30min+ instead of this clowning.

Basically this yeah. I'm at the point where I hit my heal key on accident in open world on my war, cause I'm so used to pressing 3 mantra keys at the same time on hfb/qcfb. I just want to hit 1 utility on my war and my muscle memory goes "hit all 3 buttons". Spammy autopilot gameplay for no other reason than "but we got support roles, aren't we special".

[DeceiverX.8361]

8 hours ago, Diktator.8927 said:

In my opinion, boons should be temporary buffs to your power (afaik, they worked in this way long, long ago), not things that you expect to have on you at all times. Imagine if boons were few and far between, only lasted for a few seconds, with longer cooldowns. There would be strategy involved in using those boons. Maybe you need to burst something down quickly, maybe the boss is incapacitated for a few seconds and you use the opportunity to boon up and do max dps possible in that short period of time. Defensive boons like Aegis and Stability could be used to counter/avoid certain boss attacks, instead of having the boons up constantly without much effort. It would introduce so much more fun, strategy, and possibly unique mechanics.

This was how they launched and were designed to be from the onset.

It was wonderful and really enabled some mastercraft PvP builds.  The choice of building to get more in short bursts or for the extended duration of the fight was a big one to make.

They're too significant and uptime is too high to build away from now such that it's an infinite arms race to more boons and boon uptime.  It's really dumb and it's the same reason I don't bother with PvE, stopped taking PvP/WvW seriously as well, and won't spend money on this game and have not done so since just after Heart of Thorns.

[Roda.7468]

I don't care how they do it, but the stack meta has got to go. It is the single most unfun part of an otherwise amazing game, and it sucks that something so fun-sucking is so central to the kind of content I enjoy the most.  This one thing is more impactful on my enjoyment of the gameplay than any profession/comp-based meta.

Keep boon uptime to preserve the support role, but generously increase their range to allow for breathing room

Get rid of them all together because balance is hard (not really a fan of this one tbh, I enjoy supportive roles)

Or somewhere in the middle where they're only for specific burst timings (but still increase their range pls, snuggling with your party isn't a skill check)

I don't care, just let me use my own brain when it comes to my positioning...

Edited June 26, 2022 by Roda.7468

[Vidit.7108]

As someone who remembers when boon support was rare, I don't ever want to go back to that. Players were a lot less forgiving of mistakes, fights took a lot longer, and content was much harder. I know there are players that want to go back to that because hard content is fun to them, but it was a very unpleasant experience to pug with other players when boon support was rare or difficult. Groups used to fall apart quickly as a lot of players were pretty judgmental of other players' skill.
I don't have the luxury of time to go back to spending 30 minutes on one fractal boss without any might and fury. People have gotten older and have more going on in life, if the future of this game is take more time to fight bosses I won't be the only one to quit.

[Kozumi.5816]

6 minutes ago, Roda.7468 said:

I don't care how they do it, but the stack meta has got to go.

It won't, it's their grand vision for the game.

[Kozumi.5816]

Just now, Vidit.7108 said:

I don't have the luxury of time to go back to spending 30 minutes on one fractal boss without any might and fury. People have gotten older and have more going on in life, if the future of this game is take more time to fight bosses I won't be the only one to quit.

You mean when the game wasn't balanced around how much DPS you could do with every buff in the game and instead basically unbuffed?

[Vidit.7108]

7 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

You mean when the game wasn't balanced around how much DPS you could do with every buff in the game and instead basically unbuffed?

If bosses were ever balanced well or at all, pre-HoT I never saw it. I used to blind champions in Ascalonian catacombs while the rest of the players wailed on them