WvW Why No Support class rewards.

[Zyreva.1078]

6 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I been waiting for support bag credit forever. 😞 Don't other WvW games like ESO already have it? and like.. at release?

ESO also splits rewards among those players instead of multiplying everything. Which makes it fairer, yes. But do you want that feature of ESO reward system too or only the part that would benefit those who are already better off than some others?

[Nikola.3841]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:47 AM, Merrex.5384 said:

When I used to play support in DAOC  If I was able to keep a player alive in a fight and they managed to get a kill I also got credit for that kill. If was a great system which rewarded support players.

This game only rewards the DPS players. In large scale battles the best rewards come from large AOE Damage skills as you can tag more players and have more chances to get a kill. 

Not only that, you would also get reward for heals...so in the end dps would get fame (deathspam), but you'd get more RPs as reward

[Draygo.9473]

20 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

WXP per kill does not depend on dmg dealt. Everyone who manages to get credit for a kill will get the same amount.

not exactly true (same amount part). 

 

When you kill a player there is a chance for you to get an item drop that gives you WXP, this item drop can be from 250 bonus WXP to 2,500 bonus WXP. They used to not be auto consumed like they are now. This bonus wxp is not changed by any wxp buff (celebration etc). As long as you have the loot credit threshhold you will have a chance to get this bonus wxp. What I dont know is if the loot credit threshhold and the exp threshholds are the same. I think they are but I'm not 100% sure. 

 

 

[Creativity.3816]

Lots of text arguing the wrong things. It's really a simple and stupid answer. 

 

Support players don't deserve bags because they are the ones actively preventing enemies from getting their bags. That is their bag-related duty.

 

In reality, support specs do not belong in world vs world at all. Whatever changes were made over time to support firebrand and scrapper slowly ruined the pace of the game mode for any serious groups. It's not debatable, it's just a fact. 

 

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. 

[Xenesis.6389]

As per the wiki.

Base wxp from a player kill is 0-60, depends on how long the person has been alive, you can use boost for this.

The other bonus wxp is in the form of loot drops, drop to a keg, 250-25k, this is in the loot pool.

 

These are the notes on kill credit back in 2018 when it was increased for support. You still need to throw out something damaging to tag the enemies for the support credit for that kill.

Quote

Kill credit and loot for support-oriented players has been low, and we want to reward players for assisting their allies, so the shared credit contributions are going up by a solid amount. You still need to tag an enemy for the bonus support credit to come into play; standing around passively granting boons is not gameplay that ought to be rewarded, but this will offer a larger opportunity to weave support-oriented skills into group combat situations and get rewarded for it.

• Increased the support credit given to players by 50% for granting boons, cleansing conditions, healing, and reviving.

 

Typically you can just tag npcs for credit no real minimums there, although I believe there is for the lord. On the wiki somewhere (I'm not going to deep dive for it again) for players you typically have to do around 10% of their max health, around 1k damage usually does it for the credit. For the support credit it sounds like you just need to tag instead of minimum damage for it's credit, so weave in more aoes.

 

In any case support rewards is probably the first thing they will look at after world restructuring, there is after all a support scrapper on the team.

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

As per the wiki.

Base wxp from a player kill is 0-60, depends on how long the person has been alive, you can use boost for this.

The other bonus wxp is in the form of loot drops, drop to a keg, 250-25k, this is in the loot pool.

 

These are the notes on kill credit back in 2018 when it was increased for support. You still need to throw out something damaging to tag the enemies for the support credit for that kill.

 

Typically you can just tag npcs for credit no real minimums there, although I believe there is for the lord. On the wiki somewhere (I'm not going to deep dive for it again) for players you typically have to do around 10% of their max health, around 1k damage usually does it for the credit. For the support credit it sounds like you just need to tag instead of minimum damage for it's credit, so weave in more aoes.

 

In any case support rewards is probably the first thing they will look at after world restructuring, there is after all a support scrapper on the team.

I'm not aware of any support, including FBs, who just stand there throwing out support. And if you're a FB piano-playing stab skills, in a lot of situations you're playing your stab character wrong. 4 of the 5 pages in book 3 do no enemy damage, neither does the elite. Of the non-elite utility mantras, only 2 do any damage.

Edited to add: this isn't directed at you, but at the quote you included.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hesione.9412
Added clarity.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

first, we overall need better rewards

second, support needs equal rewards to dps obviously

 

but anet has yet months ago, by now way over a half year, stated that they "know the issue" and they are "working on it". so yeah, company hamster had another task here i guess. sadly is only a hamster.

 

we should really write letters to NCsoft for apparently not giving Anet ressources to do anything. 20 projects just taking like years to get one tiny step ahead, like holy hell.

[Svarty.8019]

5 hours ago, Creativity.3816 said:

Lots of text arguing the wrong things. It's really a simple and stupid answer. 

 

Support players don't deserve bags because they are the ones actively preventing enemies from getting their bags. That is their bag-related duty.

 

In reality, support specs do not belong in world vs world at all. Whatever changes were made over time to support firebrand and scrapper slowly ruined the pace of the game mode for any serious groups. It's not debatable, it's just a fact. 

 

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. 

... just a fact.. just a fact that's actually an opinion. "Ruined" is the word that gives it away, I'd use "changed". Whether that change is for better or worse is debatable.

Also, I don't comprehend your opinion on why some players deserve bags and others do not. The fact of the matter is that the main reward for WvW shouldn't be bags. It should be for participation. That would be as simple as putting bags in chests and deleting the drops table from WvW kills. Is that removing randomness and making the game fractionally more boring? Yes. But I think it's fairer.

 

[Xenesis.6389]

4 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

The fact of the matter is that the main reward for WvW shouldn't be bags. It should be for participation.

It already is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track

P.S don't come back and complain that bags are the main rewards because everyone already says wvw drops are the worse in the game.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Stonemist.4680]

Kill Count being part of the Event Rewards is something I will be re-evaluating as part of the Rewards overhaul.

My *intent* is to reward players actively participating in events, whether it is through kills, buffing or healing. We're still actively discussing exactly how that will happen, though, so I cannot give any details.

[fable spirt.8465]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It already is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track

P.S don't come back and complain that bags are the main rewards because everyone already says wvw drops are the worse in the game.

I think the issue is that bags are the most profitable reward. You can keep your participation by just hopping from camp to camp every 10 min to get reward track. No WvW drops are not bad. Got plenty of ascended drops and know a few people that have gotten precursors.  Some guilds encourage tipping the support at the end of the night with bags cause if you go a few hours and get some good fights you can walk away with hundreds of bags while your support gets nothing because they don't do damage.

Edited July 1, 2022 by fable spirt.8465

[Hesione.9412]

2 hours ago, fable spirt.8465 said:

I think the issue is that bags are the most profitable reward. You can keep your participation by just hopping from camp to camp every 10 min to get reward track. No WvW drops are not bad. Got plenty of ascended drops and know a few people that have gotten precursors.  Some guilds encourage tipping the support at the end of the night with bags cause if you go a few hours and get some good fights you can walk away with hundreds of bags while your support gets nothing because they don't do damage.

One way would be to remove stab from the game and everyone is either DPS or cleanses/heals/strips.

[Dralor.3701]

1 hour ago, Hesione.9412 said:

One way would be to remove stab from the game and everyone is either DPS or cleanses/heals/strips.

Removing stability is a bad idea. The game is already CC heavy and again just citing DAOC (old engine but maybe the best WvW to date?) had a pretty strong diminishing returns on hard CC skills. Why everyone took purge as first RA and after maybe 1-2 cleanse (can’t remember and depends on initial cc/cc length) you basically couldn’t be stunned or mezed for a while.

Just give all specs/players involved in the fight/party/squad equal rewards if they are in the proximity of the fight.

[Littlekenny.4196]

4 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

One way would be to remove stab from the game and everyone is either DPS or cleanses/heals/strips.

Firstly, removing stab would remove most of the gameplay since when a person is hit by cc they can't really play the game.

 

Secondly, pre-HoT the person providing stability was also doing a good amount of dps.

The differences since then are dedicated supports with crazy access to boons and the concentration stat so they last ages, crazy boon strips so there is rng on what boons applied actually stay, classes which are dedicated healers able to keep everybody's health up, an increase in Condi damage and the expertise stat so cleansers are required, the removed of retaliation so full berserker classes can DPS from range with no punishment, higher damage classes so that healing is also required.

 

This game wasn't originally designed to have the holy trinity so adding that in kittened it up.

imo

[RainerZufall.2618]

On 6/29/2022 at 6:24 AM, Hesione.9412 said:

My experience:

DPS: lots of bags

Support scrapper: quite a few bags, although not as many as DPS. Somewhere between 50-75% of the number DPS gets.

Support FB: maybe 2, my max for 2 hours at peak times has been under 15.

 

Conclusion: being a stab bot is the problem because you don't get kill credits if most of what you are doing is stab.

then you must play your HFB the wrong way. with FB i`m nearly even with DPS,  maybe stop camping in Tomes and check your prtection rota.
don`t know about scrapper 😕
easiest way with nearly no effort would be if healing skills would do 1dmg so you can tag enemies same easy as dps

Edited July 1, 2022 by RainerZufall.2618

[Aeolus.3615]

14 hours ago, Stonemist.4680 said:

Kill Count being part of the Event Rewards is something I will be re-evaluating as part of the Rewards overhaul.

My *intent* is to reward players actively participating in events, whether it is through kills, buffing or healing. We're still actively discussing exactly how that will happen, though, so I cannot give any details.

Just a small note from a wvw player pov:

Rewarding on boon appliance (and overall spamable actions) can be dangerous, if players think they only need to stack boon tanks and get rewards,  perma boon groups already exists  even on very small scale combat if the combat becomes minstrell vs minstrell more than already is.. : ( gameplay is already bit dull in most fights due stats selection from players and a change on rewards m8 manipulate indirectly players to become even more tanky specs for easy access to loot rewards.

Why not just remove drop/loot from wvw?  and make several wvw  rewards tracks as the "role reward track" by fulfilling each objectives for certain roles?

Support | healer |Offense| Defender of objectives | Obective atacker |

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Hesione.9412]

17 hours ago, Dralor.3701 said:

Removing stability is a bad idea. The game is already CC heavy and again just citing DAOC (old engine but maybe the best WvW to date?) had a pretty strong diminishing returns on hard CC skills. Why everyone took purge as first RA and after maybe 1-2 cleanse (can’t remember and depends on initial cc/cc length) you basically couldn’t be stunned or mezed for a while.

Just give all specs/players involved in the fight/party/squad equal rewards if they are in the proximity of the fight.

I admit I was being more than somewhat facetious in my comment. It is frustrating though.

[Hesione.9412]

12 hours ago, RainerZufall.2618 said:

then you must play your HFB the wrong way. with FB i`m nearly even with DPS,  maybe stop camping in Tomes and check your prtection rota.
don`t know about scrapper 😕
easiest way with nearly no effort would be if healing skills would do 1dmg so you can tag enemies same easy as dps

You are making huge assumptions about how my guild runs builds and squad comp. You will notice that at least one other player has said that FB brings in way fewer bags - they are not in the same guild as me.

 

Comments along the lines of "git gud" are not helpful.

[Vekks.6013]

Being stuck in Support Firebrand/Medkit Scrapper jail for essentially the entire existence of those classes means that some players have literally never gotten decent rewards from WvW ever. They play a thankless role, essential to the success of their team, and they never see a thing for it. Personally, I think this should have been a priority, to allow for tagging via healing/boon sharing based on your allies' tags. But the amount of times I have seen and heard this feedback, and still there is nothing done about it. All I can do is hope that when they restructure WvW rewards per the recent blog post, this is considered.

[Boh.4568]

I envy support players because they don't know how low gold/h the WvW lootbags are.

[Xenesis.6389]

5 hours ago, Anscenic.3268 said:

Being stuck in Support Firebrand/Medkit Scrapper jail for essentially the entire existence of those classes means that some players have literally never gotten decent rewards from WvW ever. They play a thankless role, essential to the success of their team, and they never see a thing for it. 

/whispers

Roamers/scouts

/whistles

[Dralor.3701]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

/whispers

Roamers/scouts

/whistles

Roaming is fun though, support jail is not fun.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, Dralor.3701 said:

Roaming is fun though, support jail is not fun.

Don't play it if it's not fun for you. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Dralor.3701]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Don't play it if it's not fun for you. 🤷‍♂️

 

I rarely do, this doesn’t mean the current iteration is okay or shouldn’t be fun. Shouldn’t the devs try to make the roles equal? (Or even incentivize support)

[Littlekenny.4196]

I played minstril FB last night for 2 hours 30 mins, I ended the night on 78 bags. This is more than I would normally get on scrapper, less than I would have got on melee DPS which is also less than I would have got on DH or Rev.

In last night raid it was less than a DPS but not by a huge amount.