At what point is it elitism vs efficiency?

[Sobx.1758]

It's interesting to see that some people here seem to be so focused on someone wanting to wait for whatever exact composition they're aiming at. While I don't wait for a perfect comp, I don't see why anyone else would care about how some players announce/build their squads. If those people prefered to just do the content in whatever squad, that's what they'd do. How is this a problem for other players that can just as easly start their own group in lfg? As long as the expectations are listed in the lfg description, I don't see a problem.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

They’re looking for a smooth run. 

Pretty much this. It's worthwhile if it makes the difference between a smooth run, and spending an hour bouncing off Viirastra. Getting that role filled isn't a guarantee but it certainly helps. 

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't think anyone is saying it's elitist to wait for the group composition they want. Just that based on the presumption their 1st priority is speed, it doesn't always make sense. But it would seem speed isn't necessarily the 1st priority. That for some, it's less about speed and more about not wiping.

Totally agree.

-----

What some of us discussed, about sacrificing some aspect of the composition to speed up forming a group instead of being totally adamant about it, seems a few here simply jump to the conclusion that we are saying it is elitist to do so. What we were trying to say is that if you're trying to do a speed run, wasting time in the lobby is just counter-productive. But how you form it, it's your group, it's your prerogative.  No one is saying you cannot.

Everyone should always try to get the proper mix. It is not elitist. That's just plain common sense.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

If your desire is to get through something quickly then spending longer waiting for your ideal group composition than you'd spend doing it with a less efficent group is counterproductive. If your choice is between accepting anyone and spending 10 minutes getting something done, or waiting 10 minutes for someone who can help you do it in 5 minutes then waiting is pointless - overall it takes 15 minutes instead of 10.

Oh absolutely, that's why I did not make any mention of speed but rather desired group composition. Speed can be a factor but does not have to be.

Many players desire a specific group composition because they are used to it, it can have a better flow (and especially alacrity and quickness change a lot how gameplay can feel), it shows a minimum commitment to the group or the setup (a player who understands and is willing to bring what a group looks for might be more valuable than one who simply wants to tag along), it might be safer, etc.

There are dozens of reasons besides time, in the past having reflects available for Volcanic Fractal was a difference of night and day, which might or might not make sense.

There are dozens of reasons why for example pugging or going at this game solo is incredibly counterproductive and yet that's one of the main issues many players and the developers (and parts of this player base) have to deal with. Should we now ask: at what point do players realize that soloing in an MMORPG is counterproductive, especially in regards to speed (or even content clearability)? No, it's a players choice just as how groups make their choices.

Quote

Of course it's not always that clear cut, but there's been many times I've joined a group for something and then we've been hanging around waiting for the 1 specific build the person who made the group wants, until someone asks if we need them and we get told "no, but it goes faster". A few times in T1 and even T2 Fractals we managed to get through an entire Fractal (and this usually happened with Sunqua Peak) 1 person short, because we'd start and hope the person we 'needed' would join before the boss, then we finished before that happened.

Yes, most players have no idea why they should be looking for a specific class, or not. Most players imitate what they see, don't question what they have been told or simply don't like to deviate from what they know.

So, is every player who is ignorant or not as versed at this game elitist now? Because that's where the original premise was leading to.

There is a simple solution to all of these unknown:

It's none of other players business. Respect that LFG listing, wish the group the best move on if it's not for you. In short: make your own group with your own rules.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1508]

When you try to enforce your efficiency opinions on others it becomes elitism..

Edited July 4, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Cyninja.2954]

29 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

When you try to enforce your efficiency opinions on others it becomes elitism..

Okay.

So at what point does expecting others to accept a diverging class/build/player from what the group is looking for entitlement?

Is it elitism from the group and entitlement from the individual who expects to get taken along both at the same time?

What was first, the group being elitist for setting up what they are looking for, or the player who expects to get taken along being entitled?

Edited July 4, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[ArchonWing.9480]

There's nothing toxic about only wanting to play with players that meet your requirements (and exclude those that don't).

There's something extremely toxic about going into a random pug party and yelling at people for not playing like you want though.

I do feel like if you're any good at the game, then you should never be the later, as you will inevitably make friends or find a guild as you will bring something to the table.  I'm not a very good player myself, but there's plenty of people that would easily take me into a group in pve or wvw, so much that I have to keep turning people down. So....

To me, the later is just "toxic". I mean I doubt you're  going to see anyone from Snowcrows or w/e ever have trouble with completing raid weeklies or w/e  just because they can't find the right party lol. I mean yes, you could be an above average player with bad social skills I guess, but meh, that's a dime a dozen. Hardly elite.

Of course you sometimes run into psychos and stuff goes wrong. But if every party you join falls apart, there's something wrong with what you're doing, either in terms of game or social skills.

Edited July 4, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

There's nothing toxic about only wanting to play with players that meet your requirements (and exclude those that don't).

There's something extremely toxic about going into a random pug party and yelling at people for not playing like you want though.

I do feel like if you're any good at the game, then you should never be the later, as you will inevitably make friends or find a guild as you will bring something to the table.  I'm not a very good player myself, but there's plenty of people that would easily take me into a group in pve or wvw, so much that I have to reject invites. So....

To me, the later is just "toxic". I mean I doubt you're  going to see anyone from Snowcrows or w/e ever have trouble with completing fractal dailies just because they can't find the right party lol. I mean yes, you could be an above average player with bad social skills I guess, but meh, that's a dime a dozen. Hardly elite.

Or that group might have had up to 10 people before join as dps when looking for alac or quickness supplier.

We dont know how many straws its been before they broke the camels back.

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Or that group might have had up to 10 people before join as dps when looking for alac or quickness supplier.

Well, kicking people for being unable to read is another story. Though I assume they would be asked what if they're going to switch to the requested role.

[Gehenna.3625]

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not counterproductive at all if it leads to the desired way of playing the game.

I see what you're trying to say here, but in light of efficiency it is counterproductive.

It does a amaze me to hear you say this though. I guess some people have a very narrow focus when it comes to enjoying the game. Even to the point where you spend 10 minutes in LFG to save a couple of minutes. I mean it's fine by me. I'm not arguing against it. But it still  surprises me, although it probably shouldn't. I mean I get that for raids and CMs that you want a specific team and stick to that. Just when it comes to fractals... anyways, if people want to wait 10 minutes for an alac that's fine with me. I just don't really get that, but that's on me.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

When you try to enforce your efficiency opinions on others it becomes elitism..

The thing is though that they don't force it on others. They are in the LFG to find like minded people. To me it seems idiotic to wait in LFG for 10 minutes to save 1-2 minutes of gameplay but that's me.

Also, I find this very one-sided. Because aren't you trying to force your way of thinking on them? Your version of fun is not superior to theirs but there is a point where playstyles are simply not compatible. So best to avoid joining groups like that instead of you trying to force your "relaxed" playstyle on the rest of the group. 

That stuff goes both ways you know.

[Rhingeim.3974]

It becomes toxic if team members are jerks. 

It's ok to not know mechanics, everyone deserve their first chance and content try

It's not OK if:

1) people strat blaming each other or ignoring chatting about how to do this or that

2) people ignore each other, for example running towards the boss while someone left behind in insta-cc mobs. 

3) it's not ok insta-kick people without small chat if their builds are strange

[Astralporing.1957]

14 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

Elitism is when you separate people in "worthy" and "not worthy". It can be justified, mind you (like in case of higher difficulty content, where some people really can't do it), but it's still elitism nonetheless. Elitism is not automatically toxic - it only becomes so, when it's either completely unreasonable, or you are being a kitten about it.

Notice also, that part of being elitist is due to player attitude, but it also can be partially created by game design. All the prefiltering that happens in raid lfg's is generally completely justified - it is an elitist behaviour that players are being forced into by the requirements of said content coupled with masive gaps in effectiveness this game's design creates and (nonexisting) in-game learning curve.

[Zohane.7208]

14 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

Imo, wanting an efficient team is never toxic, but can be seen as elitist, possibly. Toxicity comes from people wanting feeling the need to yell at others for whatever reason "kitten xxxxx you do too low dps" or "you idiot, don't go ranged" or whatever. Non-toxic would be "hey xxxx, you might have a look at your rotations, your dps is a bit on the low side" or "please don't go ranged, it's better to stay close together to get maximum boons".

Basically they both say the same thing but the tone is entirely different.

[Zohane.7208]

51 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

The thing is though that they don't force it on others. They are in the LFG to find like minded people. To me it seems idiotic to wait in LFG for 10 minutes to save 1-2 minutes of gameplay but that's me.

 

Wanting quickness and alacrity in the team is actually very useful since most who play high-level fractals or other high level endgame tends to have a "muscle memory" for when to hit skills, and this is practiced from having quickness and alacrity. If one or both is missing then skills aren't ready when expected so the rotations get screwed up, and/or we have to constantly look at our skillbars which increases risk for failure. It's all about having a smooth play.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Current builds are capable of producing far more results than any content needs, except Harvest Temple CM. Elitism spawns from people who expect more than is required, who just want "more" for the sake of it.

 

Player need to stop being so greedy.

 

An example is today we did T4 Fractals, our group had two DPSes doing about 30k and one doing about half that, plus two supports averaging about 5k (which is good for a support). At one point I switched to my full support gear, which I almost never do, simply because our DPS was so high the bosses were evaporating, and we would benefit more from the increased healing vs my extra 3k of DPS I lost by doing so.

 

In other words, their builds and rotations were so good that additional DPS became completely useless, this is known as overcapping, and its not only become common but expected for some reason.

 

The content was designed for far worse classes and builds from a completely different era, so any kind of elitism these days makes absolutely no sense. Your group would have to be completely full of random newbies to fail clearing anything at this point, assuming you have even two players with experience.

 

I ran W1 recently to see how Emboldened works. Most of the players were PUGs who had never raided before, and it went smoother than any coordinated attempt from 2016.

 

Remember this mantra: Power creep is in, elitism is out. Be OP, not toxic.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Danikat.8537]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's interesting to see that some people here seem to be so focused on someone wanting to wait for whatever exact composition they're aiming at. While I don't wait for a perfect comp, I don't see why anyone else would care about how some players announce/build their squads. If those people prefered to just do the content in whatever squad, that's what they'd do. How is this a problem for other players that can just as easly start their own group in lfg? As long as the expectations are listed in the lfg description, I don't see a problem.

I care when I'm in that group. For me this usually came up when I was working on Ad Infinitum and would join daily T1-3 fractal groups, then when we got to 4/5 people, or when someone left and we only had the harder fractals left to do the person who created the LFG listing would go from just saying "dailies" to specifying a profession or build they wanted, and then we're stuck hanging around waiting for the right person to join.

This is why I said in my first post it's important to say what your requirements are right from the start. If the group description had originally said they wanted specific builds or professions I wouldn't have joined (I was doing T1-2, occasionally T3, it's not that difficult), but they changed it after I and the others had joined so we didn't get that choice. We could leave, but that's kind of rude too, and unfair to the other people in the group. (Which is why I'd usually try to persuade them to 'try' it without a perfect group composition, then we'd end up finishing before the 5th person joined.)

If it's a group that's clear about their requirements right from the start then it's fine, no matter what those are. I might think they're excessive (I recently saw a group for Ascalon Catacombs asking for 150 LI) but I can simply ignore that group and join or start another one. But when the requirements change after players have joined it's annoying, even if you're not the one being excluded.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

When you try to enforce your efficiency opinions on others it becomes elitism..

Two-way street, bud.  I think it's "enforcing your efficiency opinions on others" when, for example, you join a T4 fractal pickup as DPS and compete with the healer on damage output.  Would it be enforcing their opinions on you if the other players in the group said something about it or replaced you in that scenario?  I don't think so.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

16 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

At what point does wanting an efficient team become a toxic elitist team? To me arc dps can be both a benefit and a curse. You can hone your skills and find better rotations to increase your dps, but then again you can be called out for not contributing enough which makes the game a chore

if you go with the uneducated or unwilling masses, even reading skills and knowing what they do correctly is elitism.

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

to be real tho, i do not get why so many are hung up on "wasting time waiting in lfg". this argument ONLY makes sense if the LFG explicitly says " speed run attempt" and then its also questionable. as even speed running its not about "not spending much time on the game" but merely focusing on that one insular piece of content done quick with the skill of all five/10 squad members.

Wanting for a decent/good comp is not about speed, but less hassle to explain, to bump into issues. not for time investment but enjoyment of a smooth run, which CAN be slow, but just...works.
So waiting in the lfg for a decent comp is not about speed but less stress, not having to think to much and let skill muscle memory do its thing. THE ZONE so to speak.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Current builds are capable of producing far more results than any content needs, except Harvest Temple CM. Elitism spawns from people who expect more than is required, who just want "more" for the sake of it.

True, and this has been said for ages from more experienced players. It does still require some semblance of a reasonable build though.

The most common retort in the past was always: you don't get to tell me how to play. It's still being used to this day in defense of personal builds.

Quote

Player need to stop being so greedy.

That's up to each player to decide for themselves and not for others to force on them.

I might agree with you, but I also see the irony of you complaining about the same thing you are literally doing here. If you decide that you are happy with 70% results and those results are more than sufficient to clear the content, that is a very reasonable approach to clear the content. You still don't get to tell others how they are supposed to feel about their gaming experience.

Going to skip the rest because it boils down to: I get to tell others how they should enjoy the game and here is my justification for it. Which is basically the main problem at hand, players telling others how they should play.

You are calling "elitism" unreasonable in all cases but HT CM. I'm sure many would agree. Others will disagree. Some players spend dozens of hours on tuning and improving and for them, they want to play with like minded players who have also spent this amount of time honing their skills. The easiest and most reasonable solution at hand is: let everyone play the way they want, and you'll not have issues. On the contrary, if your opinion is shared by the vast majority, you will not run into any issues or barely ever. If it's not, well then you are telling a majority how to play.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Astralporing.1957]

42 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

if you go with the uneducated or unwilling masses, even reading skills and knowing what they do correctly is elitism.

It's exactly the above types of attitude that turn elitism towards toxicity. You can just practically taste the contempt towards others in it.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Current builds are capable of producing far more results than any content needs, except Harvest Temple CM. Elitism spawns from people who expect more than is required, who just want "more" for the sake of it.

 

Player need to stop being so greedy.

 

An example is today we did T4 Fractals, our group had two DPSes doing about 30k and one doing about half that, plus two supports averaging about 5k (which is good for a support). At one point I switched to my full support gear, which I almost never do, simply because our DPS was so high the bosses were evaporating, and we would benefit more from the increased healing vs my extra 3k of DPS I lost by doing so.

 

In other words, their builds and rotations were so good that additional DPS became completely useless, this is known as overcapping, and its not only become common but expected for some reason.

 

The content was designed for far worse classes and builds from a completely different era, so any kind of elitism these days makes absolutely no sense. Your group would have to be completely full of random newbies to fail clearing anything at this point, assuming you have even two players with experience.

 

I ran W1 recently to see how Emboldened works. Most of the players were PUGs who had never raided before, and it went smoother than any coordinated attempt from 2016.

 

Remember this mantra: Power creep is in, elitism is out. Be OP, not toxic.

In my experience, most groups will tolerate a wide range of performance without saying a word about it.  It only becomes an issue when it impacts the group.

For example, the other day I did T4 daily pickups.  We had 2 DPS consistently dealing more than twice as much damage as the third DPS.  But because the run went smoothly it was just business as usual.  We cleared our dailies, everyone said thanks to the group and went our separate ways.

I expect if we repeatedly wiped due to low DPS either people would have dropped group or a discussion would have ensued regarding a replacement for the low performing player. 

I don't see elitism in that scenario.  It seems perfectly reasonable to me, but this passive aggressive toxic casual mindset where other players owe us a carry and are toxic if they say anything about it I just don't understand. 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's exactly the above types of attitude that turn elitism towards toxicity. You can just practically taste the contempt towards others in it.

because it is literally happening. people rejected and still do reject the nicest of advices, pointing out as friendly and accommodating as possible that that condi build does not work with soliders gear and power traits. people refuse to learn the basics.
they have an idea what they want to be but it does not line up with how numbers work and when they told it might not be the best idea they go crazy

edit:
i even found the perfect example here on the forums 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's exactly the above types of attitude that turn elitism towards toxicity. You can just practically taste the contempt towards others in it.

Out of curiosity: why do you pick the path of feeling insulted (even if not personally, but just "for the others, just in case") instead of responding to what he said? Do you suggest people that don't read the skill descriptions don't exist? I'm pretty sure they do. So do you think when someone doesn't know what his skills are doing -because he didn't read the descriptions- and he wants to join a squad with people who subsequently won't want to play with him because he clearly lacks understanding of the game, is it not elitist? Pretty sure going by the definition that you're using (Elitism is when you separate people in "worthy" and "not worthy"), you'd say it is, since it's excluding the player based on their capabilities. So, again, is he wrong in what he said? If so, why? I don't think there's a need to be afraid to discuss these concepts. In the end that's all they are.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758