Nerf downstate HP’s in pvp

[Crab Fear.8623]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Data to back your proof?

Downed state events has always been accompanied by bonus XP week which skews the reason people play longer, but even then last I checked it was the complete opposite - and on top of that in pretty much every "downstate poll" that inevitably pop up those weeks a majority still want downstate.

Literally only a handful of players think downstate is good for competitive states, the bad ones...you know...the players always in downstate.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Literally only a handful of players think downstate is good for competitive states, the bad ones...you know...the players always in downstate.

I admit I dont watch sPvP tournaments but then I will assume then that no players ever go into downstate even if the top 10 best in the world are fighting. They all just stand there... and stare at each other... until one side is declared the winner presumably by their menacing sense of fashion.

[Luclinraider.2317]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Data to back your proof?

Downed state events has always been accompanied by bonus XP week which skews the reason people play longer, but even then last I checked it was the complete opposite - and on top of that in pretty much every "downstate poll" that inevitably pop up those weeks a majority still want downstate.

Posts like this one with tons of the community saying downed state was a mistake - Check

WvW having more population during no downed state weeks - Check (And the ammount of people there for the bonus xp is likely not even a factor. Most people are in the thousands on WvW level during the first 2 years when it could be cheated so XP means nothing)

Pro's stating downed state was the biggest issue in the esport scene - Check (I don't have to do your research for you. It's on Youtube if you want to see it.)

[Sovarica.4368]

Uneven HP downstate is a cause of toxicity in matches

[Lighter.5631]

standardize downstate.

ranger downstate pet swapping and pet rez is so BS

 

give same armor same hp and same skills

[Dawdler.8521]

9 hours ago, Luclinraider.2317 said:

Posts like this one with tons of the community saying downed state was a mistake - Check

WvW having more population during no downed state weeks - Check (And the ammount of people there for the bonus xp is likely not even a factor. Most people are in the thousands on WvW level during the first 2 years when it could be cheated so XP means nothing)

Pro's stating downed state was the biggest issue in the esport scene - Check (I don't have to do your research for you. It's on Youtube if you want to see it.)

Vocal minority, no proof at all (personally my world had ALOT higher queues the reset before last downstate week), again a vocal minority.

But the discussion is very loopsided, since one side is willing to accept nerfs/compromise and the other side accept nothing except deletion. So it becomes a rather boring argument.

[Luclinraider.2317]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Vocal minority, no proof at all (personally my world had ALOT higher queues the reset before last downstate week), again a vocal minority.

But the discussion is very loopsided, since one side is willing to accept nerfs/compromise and the other side accept nothing except deletion. So it becomes a rather boring argument.

On the contrary...most of the community asking for downed state removal has stated that simply the removal of rally would greatly benefit the competitive nature of PvP.....

However, most people still agree that downed state in general is a bad idea in PvP unless it's in a casual format.

A kill should mean a kill....end of story.

The fact that GW2 has one of the least played and most ridiculed PvP scenes in MMO's today is all the proof we need.

[Dawdler.8521]

29 minutes ago, Luclinraider.2317 said:

A kill should mean a kill....end of story.

Which, using your own logic, is said only by bad players that fail to kill the enemy.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:17 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

what!? please name one MMO, where you can fullrez your teammates, while being in combat.

Guild Wars 1 -> Resurrection - Guild Wars Wiki (GWW)

Lots of full party res skills. However these skills were actually balanced and came with large sacrifices.

[Sahne.6950]

14 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Guild Wars 1 -> Resurrection - Guild Wars Wiki (GWW)

Lots of full party res skills. However these skills were actually balanced and came with large sacrifices.

How can people get this so fundamentally wrong....

i am asking for MMO´s that have downstate and ressing....

one guy names Apex legends, which is a first personshooter  and now you name Guildwars 1.....   NICE!

Now we are just missing a guy telling us that gw2 has Fullrezzes and we have the holy trinity of brainfarts....

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

10 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i am asking for games outside of guildwars that have downstate and ressing....

Diablo 1

Ultima Online

Everquest

World Of Warcraft

Dungeons & Dragons Online

ect ect ect

 

Every ARPG & MMORPG based on warriors & wizards has resurrect skills man. Even RTS games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Brigandine, all have resurrect skills. Pretty much any game with warrior/wizard/rogue/cleric has resurrect skills actually.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

2 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Diablo 1

Ultima Online

Everquest

World Of Warcraft

Dungeons & Dragons Online

ect ect ect

 

Like every ARPG & MMORPG based on warriors & wizards has resurrect skills man.

but do they work in combat, tho?

do these games have downstate?

i literally dont know. honest question.

a shitton of games have rezzes, but they dont work in combat.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

24 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

but do they work in combat, tho?

do these games have downstate?

i literally dont know. honest question.

Yes it all works in combat which is the point of reviving someone during a pvp.

Death in other games and all older games, is the equivalent of downstate. In older ARPGs & MMORPGs there was no respawn like a first person shooter in the way GW2 did it. That was a new thing with GW2. In older ARPGs & MMORPGs when you died, your character just sat there permanently or semi-permanently until someone resurrected you or you save/exited.

In some more hardcore games like Ultima Online, death was literally permanent unless someone resurrected you. You could log off and back in and your body would still be laying there. You'd have to call in someone to come resurrect you or log into an alt to go walk and resurrect yourself.

In Diablo 1 as a good example of ARPG side of things, if you died you laid there until someone cast resurrect on you, whether it happens in pve or pvp. If you wanted to "respawn" it came with massive consequence. You would have to respawn naked all the way back in town, and attempt to walk naked past a bunch of monsters aaaaall the way back down to wherever it was you died, to try and retrieve the gear that fell off your body when you died. Again, death was the equivalent of downstate in this game.

GW1 was the same. There was no respawning. If you died you get to lay there until the match ends, unless someone resurrects you. Death was the equivalent of a downstate here because there was no auto respawn.

GW2 is different in the aspect that it brought the idea of respawning like a first person shooter during pvp matches. I don't recall any ARPGs or MMORPGs that did anything like this before GW2. I imagine they wanted to keep the tradition of ARPG and MMORPG resurrect skills intact as it is what people expect in games like this. By adding the FPS like respawn, what would be the point of having revive skills? Well they did the downstate thing so there was an opportunity to revive players before they went on respawn, which keeps the genre's flavor of cleric play intact. Also people were expecting GW2 to play a lot like GW1, which was very heavy emphasis on the role of the healer/reviver. Monks were the MVPs back in GW1, always.

I'm not really in the mood to discuss whether downstate is good or bad for GW2 right at this moment. All I'm saying is that massively powerful resurrect skills are definitely in every ARPG and MMORP to date. It's just part of the genre man. To not have cleric play in a fantasy MMO like GW2, would be like if some company pushed out an army FPS game that didn't have guns.

You can blame it on Dungeon & Dragons. <- This company in conjunction with JRR Tolkien's lore, has laid all the foundations of what people expect when they indulge to be entertained by fantasy. The job roles & templates to be expected from fantasy games are all completely derivative of D&D's Warrior, Thief, Cleric, Wizard play.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

but do they work in combat, tho?

do these games have downstate?

i literally dont know. honest question.

a shitton of games have rezzes, but they dont work in combat.

Having played most of those games, no they do not have a downstate. There is resurrection in most of them. EQ didn't have a rez spell from what I remember, you bound your soul somewhere and you respawned there and either ran back to your corpse to get your gear, or had to have someone summon your corpse for you. 

GW2 really is the only MMO out there with a downstate. FPS games have started using it, but for most MMOs if you die then you die.

Following such threads like this one and the plethora of such threads over in the WvW forum I can say that you'll find roughly 33% want downstate as is, 33% want it gone entirely, and 33% want downstate to stay but for rally to be gone.

Downstate enjoyers will conflate their preferred state along with the rally haters to say that the majority of the players want it to stay as is, but that isn't the case.

Downstate along with rally as a combined mechanic is rather hated by the majority of the player base, what they hate about it depends on who you ask. However the middle ground is to remove rally from the competitive game modes.

I'd second any rez utility self stripping stability and aegis for the duration of the channel as well.

[The Boz.2038]

24 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'd second any rez utility self stripping stability and aegis for the duration of the channel as well.

Idea: Remove instant rez/finish from any ability that has it, replace it with rez % pulses. That way, a near-death enemy isn't instantly brought back to fighting condition with no warning.

(and remove PvP/WvW Rally, ye)

[Luclinraider.2317]

12 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Which, using your own logic, is said only by bad players that fail to kill the enemy.

That was actually the other person who agreed with me who said the only people who like downed state are the people in it all the time. I got your zinger tho despite it being misplaced 😛

But really, it's hard to claim the logic the other way considering there are MMO's making hundreds of millions a year on their PvP scene like WoW arena who use the common death system.

And then we look at GW2 who is struggling to keep the lights on.....

Wonder which system works better.....

[Bast.7253]

Necro and ranger, mainly ranger currently, could really use some nerfing on downstate. 

Ranger basically has a second chance every time unless you can get a stomp in in-between ranger and pet cc's. Sometimes you can get two people just trying to cleave a ranger in a team fight and they still can't outmatch the pet's rez. 

Symbol healing guardian can also be pretty difficult but nowhere near as bad as Ranger. 

[Kuma.1503]

One unfortunate downside of having downstate in the game is that outnumbered fights become a lot more difficult for the one being outnumbered. It's not enough to simply burst down one target and turn a 2v1 into a 1v1 or 3v1 into a 2v1, you also have to carefully manage the downed bodies while also keeping yourself alive. 

Kiting too far away from the downed body will allow them to rez. Greeding for cleave will force you to burn more CDs that you need to win the fight. Special stomps also have that trade-off. 

During no downstate weeks in WvW, I'm a lot more confident fighting outnumbered because all it takes is a few well timed bursts while kiting in order to swing a fight in your favor. Likewise, I can't get too lazy even when I'm the one doing the outnumbering.

Downstate is fine in PvE, but it disproportionally favors zerging/ganking in competetive modes. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Sahne.6950]

7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

One unfortunate downside of having downstate in the game is that outnumbered fights become a lot more difficult for the one being outnumbered. It's not enough to simply burst down one target and turn a 2v1 into a 1v1 or 3v1 into a 2v1, you also have to carefully manage the downed bodies while also keeping yourself alive. 

Kiting too far away from the downed body will allow them to rez. Greeding for cleave will force you to burn more CDs that you need to win the fight. Special stomps also have that trade-off. 

During no downstate weeks in WvW, I'm a lot more confident fighting outnumbered because all it takes is a few well timed bursts while kiting in order to swing a fight in your favor. Likewise, I can't get too lazy even when I'm the one doing the outnumbering.

Downstate is fine in PvE, but it disproportionally favors zerging/ganking in competetive modes. 

Amen.

[The Boz.2038]

On 7/31/2022 at 11:21 PM, Luclinraider.2317 said:

Posts like this one with tons of the community saying downed state was a mistake - Check

The more perceptive among you will find that nobody minds downstate, it's Rally on kill that's the issue.

[Luclinraider.2317]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The more perceptive among you will find that nobody minds downstate, it's Rally on kill that's the issue.

I agree that rally is the real problem.

However, getting rid of downed state gets rid of rally...getting rid of rally doesn't get rid of downed state...and I know plenty of MMO players who are big on PvP who don't agree with us and just simply don't play GW2 due to downed state. They feel a kill should be a kill.

 

So getting rid of both with one move will open the doors to many more players. And honestly. I doubt we would lose more than 100 people who love downed state if it was removed...while opening the doors to potential thousands or tens of thousands of PvP MMO players.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Luclinraider.2317

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, Luclinraider.2317 said:

I know plenty of MMO players who are big on PvP who don't agree with us and just simply don't play GW2 due to downed state. They feel a kill should be a kill.

"But I used Decapitate on him! How is he still alive!?"

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/31/2022 at 1:43 PM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Literally only a handful of players think downstate is good for competitive states, the bad ones...you know...the players always in downstate.

Downstate makes the game more frustrating with randoms. If your teammate dies in a MOBA he doesn't revive every player on the enemy team you just downed. This makes you hate bad teammates even more than normal. That's bad.

It's good in a esports only premade only game as it could add a lot of depth. It's trash for GW2's pvp modes.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Crab Fear.8623]

See? this is not a new topic

 

[felix.2386]

down state need to be standardized, and it's fine too because no one really care about downstate diversity/meme, because it's down state. some down state skills only add annoyance to the game

Edited November 17, 2022 by felix.2386