Is power creep a concern? [Merged]

[Luci.7018]

1 hour ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Every time anet tries to introduce content that requires from the player to press more buttons than just AA, the community of this game throws a temper tantrum. We had easy low-intensity builds that could pull decent numbers in the past, we are only getting more of these. There is turning back anymore. The target audience needs the power creep. The outrage over harder stuff in the game will only become more and more prevalent. 

An alternate idea is that future bosses should not have such huge amount of HP (like Soo-won) , so people won't be forced to use those spec .

Rifle mechanics was released outside of normal content releases , so the majority had time to experiment with the spec an and not "forced" to use it

Edited August 11, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Mr Bogus.9501]

Hey all,

 

• There is alot of new player power in recent patches like

1. Pumping all classes with boon applications 
2. buffs to fury boon 
3. all new crit chance buffs for all classes 
4. buffs to many class skills and weapons coming on 23.08.
5. New anvil buffs
6. Jade bot vitality buff

Maybe I even forgot something, I'm not sure. Anyway, isn't all this a lot of new power creep for general content. Especially open world and solo play. What do you think guys? Should the content get more difficult? Should we get weaker by some flat nerf across the board? Or should everything stay as it is now?

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, Mr Bogus.9501 said:

Hey all,

 

• There is alot of new player power in recent patches like

1. Pumping all classes with boon applications 
2. buffs to fury boon 
3. all new crit chance buffs for all classes 
4. buffs to many class skills and weapons coming on 23.08.
5. New anvil buffs
6. Jade bot vitality buff

Maybe I even forgot something, I'm not sure. Anyway, isn't all this a lot of new power creep for general content. Especially open world and solo play. What do you think guys? Should the content get more difficult? Should we get weaker by some flat nerf across the board? Or should everything stay as it is now?

hey,

While i agree, that ther is infact some powercreep, they mostly creep the things that are not topping the charts currently. While they putting Damage and boons into the game. They are giving it to the builds and weapons that currently didnt see alot of use, or were not competing with the "meta".

 

i think we will be fine. ❤️

Edited August 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Mr Bogus.9501]

Yea I don't think its gonna change raiding meta much. I mostly noticed a lot of power when doing solo content in the open world. Like a lot of builds are way easier to crit cap now. We dont need as much precision and that leaves a lot of room for power and ferocity

[Fueki.4753]

I think that increasing the boon vomit is is the completely wrong direction to go for with boons, but I like the buffs to power builds. I'd like for the Warrior buffs to be more than baby steps though.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Gralsh.9458]

+1 Definitely feeling the power creep. Not sure what things (for it is surely a combination of things) to do to reign in.

 

Has been a just plain BAD experience doing metas and having stuff explode before I can even touch them...and then see the trail of folk still arriving and missing out. Was just plain bleeding keys in the Dragonfall meta today and wanted to chime in.

 

Open world is already loot pinatas. Please find a better balance between struggle and fun. Love the game. Hoping this isn't a trend.

[Einsof.1457]

6 hours ago, Gralsh.9458 said:

+1 Definitely feeling the power creep. Not sure what things (for it is surely a combination of things) to do to reign in.

 

Has been a just plain BAD experience doing metas and having stuff explode before I can even touch them...and then see the trail of folk still arriving and missing out. Was just plain bleeding keys in the Dragonfall meta today and wanted to chime in.

 

Open world is already loot pinatas. Please find a better balance between struggle and fun. Love the game. Hoping this isn't a trend.

I think all pve enemies, metas, trash, raid bosses, whatever should have their health adjusted 20% higher and hit 10% harder, honestly. The game's easiness makes it stale fast.  Either that or a power crunch adjustment for all builds. Maybe 15% across the board. Things die wayyyyy too fast.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I think all pve enemies, metas, trash, raid bosses, whatever should have their health adjusted 20% higher and hit 10% harder, honestly. The game's easiness makes it stale fast.  Either that or a power crunch adjustment for all builds. Maybe 15% across the board. Things die wayyyyy too fast.

Overperforming professions/specializations need to be toned down, PvE enemies do not need to be harder.

There already are builds that are suffering due to increasingly harder enemies in PvE. This problem does not need to be exacerbated.

All your proposition would do is kill off even more build variety due to more people swarming to the overperforming specializations. Meanwhile, other people simply leave the game, because the enemy powercreep gets too much for them and they have no love for switching to overperforming specializations.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[vanfrano.1325]

I think they went way too far with powercreep. The open world was already easy but now everything is ridiculously easy except maybe Soo-Won. The whole world basically became Core Tyria.

I find myself enjoying running metas less and less because they are basically braindead zergs and loot piñatas that require no effort whatsoever or give no challenge at all. I'm expecting the usual "if you want challenge go do raids" or whatever. The open world doesn't have to be this mindless.

We spend way more time waiting for metas or for a certain wall to open than actually playing the game.

[Bakeneko.5826]

1 hour ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

I think they went way too far with powercreep. The open world was already easy but now everything is ridiculously easy except maybe Soo-Won. The whole world basically became Core Tyria.

I find myself enjoying running metas less and less because they are basically braindead zergs and loot piñatas that require no effort whatsoever or give no challenge at all. I'm expecting the usual "if you want challenge go do raids" or whatever. The open world doesn't have to be this mindless.

We spend way more time waiting for metas or for a certain wall to open than actually playing the game.

Soo-Won is not power creep, it's IQ creep. No longer can you finish meta with mashing 1

[Linken.6345]

32 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Soo-Won is not power creep, it's IQ creep. No longer can you finish meta with mashing 1

Mechanist say hello

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Soo-Won is not power creep, it's IQ creep. No longer can you finish meta with mashing 1

You must be confusing world bosses with metas. Many of them (most?) require doing mechanics, the mash 1 trope is mostly about people who can get away with not contributing much, it's not what actually gets the metas done. The main thing EoD final meta did was make it so everybody has to contribute decently in DPS or you're going to have a very hard time of it (which from where I'm standing, has been an utter failure of a decision given how people reacted to it). The mechanics themselves, while maybe a bit more in quantity than some metas, are not especially difficult to understand, comparatively. Maybe the wisp thing is the only part that's easy to not get and mess up, and even then, prob only because it takes so long to get to the boss and get an attempt in so you can see the mechanic.

Like I don't know what game people are playing that they think that meta is some huge step up compared to the rest of the metas in the game. If you take out the harsh DPS check (harsh for pug open world, that is), I'd estimate that's like 90% of the difficulty right there compared to other metas. And DPS checks aren't exactly a complex requirement. That's basically a test of can you dodge some circles on the ground and do a rotation. Bringing the term IQ into it makes me laugh a bit, ngl. Being able to do decent DPS and dodge some circles is just standard MMO fare, it only seems like a big deal in this game because this game is so godawful at empowering people to put together a DPS build and gear, and often it's not even the right decision anyway. Like in open world, running full glass DPS is usually a terrible idea, yet suddenly people are expected to prioritize DPS. There's also the fact that hybrid roles like alacrity dps and quickness dps are equally important, if not more so, to have when DPS checks matter and the game isn't any better about empowering people to do those either. And once again, in open world, they're prob going to be a terrible decision a lot of the time because you won't often be grouped around enough players who are in the right build for your alac/quick to make much of a difference over a more solo-oriented build.

The idea people are missing this stuff because they lack some kind of intelligence needed to do it is the sort of explanation that fails to look at any of the realities of the game's design at all, versus other games where DPS roles are a trinity standard. There are some 30+ stat combinations in this game. The value of roles is often more about what you bring to the group than what you do completely on your own. Anet tried to make a meta boss that was like the raid fare of a trinity MMO and it wasn't received well, and they need to understand the limitations of their own game next time. And it would be nice if people would stop acting like it's the fault of the players for not being able to grasp such "high level concepts" as DPS, when this game doesn't natively support DPS as a good decision in open world to begin with.

[Gehenna.3625]

23 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You must be confusing world bosses with metas. Many of them (most?) require doing mechanics, the mash 1 trope is mostly about people who can get away with not contributing much, it's not what actually gets the metas done. The main thing EoD final meta did was make it so everybody has to contribute decently in DPS or you're going to have a very hard time of it (which from where I'm standing, has been an utter failure of a decision given how people reacted to it). The mechanics themselves, while maybe a bit more in quantity than some metas, are not especially difficult to understand, comparatively. Maybe the wisp thing is the only part that's easy to not get and mess up, and even then, prob only because it takes so long to get to the boss and get an attempt in so you can see the mechanic.

Like I don't know what game people are playing that they think that meta is some huge step up compared to the rest of the metas in the game. If you take out the harsh DPS check (harsh for pug open world, that is), I'd estimate that's like 90% of the difficulty right there compared to other metas. And DPS checks aren't exactly a complex requirement. That's basically a test of can you dodge some circles on the ground and do a rotation. Bringing the term IQ into it makes me laugh a bit, ngl. Being able to do decent DPS and dodge some circles is just standard MMO fare, it only seems like a big deal in this game because this game is so godawful at empowering people to put together a DPS build and gear, and often it's not even the right decision anyway. Like in open world, running full glass DPS is usually a terrible idea, yet suddenly people are expected to prioritize DPS. There's also the fact that hybrid roles like alacrity dps and quickness dps are equally important, if not more so, to have when DPS checks matter and the game isn't any better about empowering people to do those either. And once again, in open world, they're prob going to be a terrible decision a lot of the time because you won't often be grouped around enough players who are in the right build for your alac/quick to make much of a difference over a more solo-oriented build.

The idea people are missing this stuff because they lack some kind of intelligence needed to do it is the sort of explanation that fails to look at any of the realities of the game's design at all, versus other games where DPS roles are a trinity standard. There are some 30+ stat combinations in this game. The value of roles is often more about what you bring to the group than what you do completely on your own. Anet tried to make a meta boss that was like the raid fare of a trinity MMO and it wasn't received well, and they need to understand the limitations of their own game next time. And it would be nice if people would stop acting like it's the fault of the players for not being able to grasp such "high level concepts" as DPS, when this game doesn't natively support DPS as a good decision in open world to begin with.

You know, this is one of the most well-written posts I've seen for a while. Just wanted to say that "out loud". I agree with everything you say.

One thing I might add ...no nothing to add. 

[stormemperor.3745]

On 8/5/2022 at 3:02 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

Is anyone else concerned that the game is getting a bit too easy? Things like jade bot cores are contributing to power creep and the trivializing of a lot of content over time. New elites seem to necessarily be more powerful to drive sales of expansions which also contributes. While it's not totally game breaking, I really hope the power creep slows down.  Things I've noticed is that the fractal CMs are much easier than they were a couple years ago, and some raid bosses (even without emboldened) are just embarrassing (cairn and MO to name two). Just a bit concerned by this trend of making the game easier and making gameplay simpler. I don't want to play a homgenized borefest.

Power Rifle Mechanist top dps afk obviously not powercreep

[Einsof.1457]

4 hours ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

I think they went way too far with powercreep. The open world was already easy but now everything is ridiculously easy except maybe Soo-Won. The whole world basically became Core Tyria.

I find myself enjoying running metas less and less because they are basically braindead zergs and loot piñatas that require no effort whatsoever or give no challenge at all. I'm expecting the usual "if you want challenge go do raids" or whatever. The open world doesn't have to be this mindless.

We spend way more time waiting for metas or for a certain wall to open than actually playing the game.

Exactly. It's not fun when there's no risk of failure.

[Mungrul.9358]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Like in open world, running full glass DPS is usually a terrible idea, yet suddenly people are expected to prioritize DPS.

I mostly play solo open world content, and I run full glassy gear on most of my characters, either Viper or a mix of Berserker & Assassin to hit crit cap.

And it's difficult, especially on some of the less favoured specs. I mean, running glassy has probably made me a better player if I'm honest.

But I feel I have to, because for those times when I am in a group, either in Fractals, Dungeons or Metas, I have to fulfill a role. And because gear is expensive and ANet still stubbornly lock free respeccing behind Legendaries, that role has to be good in both solo and group content. So, DPS it is.

 

I've been harping on about this since the game was released, but if respeccing in GW2 was as free and easy as it is in GW1, there would be a lot less barriers in place for people wanting to play different content. Others could help you respec to fulfill a role in a team without having to wait for you to go away and buy or craft gear that will only ever see use in very specific scenarios.

I also strongly suspect that if respeccing was made available for free on all tiers of gear, we would see an explosion of build variety.

 

As it stands, the community has bought in to the idea that only a minority of players know how to build optimally, and further compound this by following "meta" builds.

Simply put, when it's expensive for the majority of the userbase to experiment, you see less experimentation.

 

There is not a single build in GW2 that is as revolutionary or exciting as the 55 Monk, Necro/Rit Soul Reaping Healer or any number of crazy combinations the GW1 community have come up with.

Now admittedly, a lot of that was down to GW1's dual class system and huge number of skills. But I would argue that everybody playing the game being able to respec whenever they wanted with no restrictions also contributed massively to this inventiveness and creativity.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Mungrul.9358

[Hashberry.4510]

I try to get to popular metas late now, or at least swap maps when I see an overflow map start. Some time it results in a slightly less boring encounter, though mostly still a dull loot fest. Open world is pretty well trashed.

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You must be confusing world bosses with metas. Many of them (most?) require doing mechanics, the mash 1 trope is mostly about people who can get away with not contributing much, it's not what actually gets the metas done. The main thing EoD final meta did was make it so everybody has to contribute decently in DPS or you're going to have a very hard time of it (which from where I'm standing, has been an utter failure of a decision given how people reacted to it). The mechanics themselves, while maybe a bit more in quantity than some metas, are not especially difficult to understand, comparatively. Maybe the wisp thing is the only part that's easy to not get and mess up, and even then, prob only because it takes so long to get to the boss and get an attempt in so you can see the mechanic.

Like I don't know what game people are playing that they think that meta is some huge step up compared to the rest of the metas in the game. If you take out the harsh DPS check (harsh for pug open world, that is), I'd estimate that's like 90% of the difficulty right there compared to other metas. And DPS checks aren't exactly a complex requirement. That's basically a test of can you dodge some circles on the ground and do a rotation. Bringing the term IQ into it makes me laugh a bit, ngl. Being able to do decent DPS and dodge some circles is just standard MMO fare, it only seems like a big deal in this game because this game is so godawful at empowering people to put together a DPS build and gear, and often it's not even the right decision anyway. Like in open world, running full glass DPS is usually a terrible idea, yet suddenly people are expected to prioritize DPS. There's also the fact that hybrid roles like alacrity dps and quickness dps are equally important, if not more so, to have when DPS checks matter and the game isn't any better about empowering people to do those either. And once again, in open world, they're prob going to be a terrible decision a lot of the time because you won't often be grouped around enough players who are in the right build for your alac/quick to make much of a difference over a more solo-oriented build.

The idea people are missing this stuff because they lack some kind of intelligence needed to do it is the sort of explanation that fails to look at any of the realities of the game's design at all, versus other games where DPS roles are a trinity standard. There are some 30+ stat combinations in this game. The value of roles is often more about what you bring to the group than what you do completely on your own. Anet tried to make a meta boss that was like the raid fare of a trinity MMO and it wasn't received well, and they need to understand the limitations of their own game next time. And it would be nice if people would stop acting like it's the fault of the players for not being able to grasp such "high level concepts" as DPS, when this game doesn't natively support DPS as a good decision in open world to begin with.

The difficulty doesn't need to be -and generally isn't- limited to one element. If you need more dps, it means you're giving up some of the defensive power, which makes mistakes less fogiving and by that makes the mechanics harder/more meaningful to perform correctly. Things like meaningful mechanics, dps or time limit are all part of the difficulty.

 

It's like said in the next post:

6 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I mean, running glassy has probably made me a better player if I'm honest.

It's probably true that playing more glassy makes players better (or pushes them to become better) and that's because they need to utilize the rest of the game's mechanics to succeed.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashgar.3024]

Believe it or not the game is a LOT less powercrept now than it used to be.

 

Guess people don't remember Staff Weaver benching 50k+, the 10man boon meta, Firrebrand and Scourge being walking gods for 4 years straight etc.

 

Only real balance/design issue with the game atm is Mecanist, and its still a lot more tame than what Firebrand/Scourge were at their peak.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Song of Eternity.8613]

I'm just curious why ArenaNet spent years addressing power creep, just to blow it out of the water with EoD? A lot of map metas are kind of ruined by how fast the bosses are dying. For example, the mouth of mordremoth just melts right now without people even using the mechanics, The Chak Gerent barely phases anymore, and in Dragonfall, the wounds are destroyed before the menders have time reach them. It just takes away from the whole experience and makes the fights lackluster.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Song of Eternity.8613

[Ashen.2907]

Some fights are certainly less epic, or even engaging, now.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

Seems the thread is almost done, but I would just like to add that as a player still finishing up base Tyria maps (not level 80 yet) the game is far more fun when there is some challenge to the combats. The base open world maps are often too easy (particularly with the Character Achievement Guide boosting your level all the time so you can't easily stay in zones where you are underlevelled) but I can see that there will be some inexperienced players who need it to be that easy. I think the obvious solution is to add difficulty levels so that each player can choose how much challenge they want. Easy (even easier than current), Normal (like current settings), Hard, Savage, Insane, or whatever you want.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 8/19/2022 at 12:34 PM, Mr Bogus.9501 said:

Hey all,

 

• There is alot of new player power in recent patches like

1. Pumping all classes with boon applications 
2. buffs to fury boon 
3. all new crit chance buffs for all classes 
4. buffs to many class skills and weapons coming on 23.08.
5. New anvil buffs
6. Jade bot vitality buff

Maybe I even forgot something, I'm not sure. Anyway, isn't all this a lot of new power creep for general content. Especially open world and solo play. What do you think guys? Should the content get more difficult? Should we get weaker by some flat nerf across the board? Or should everything stay as it is now?

Points 2 and 3 only partially compensate for loss of spotter and banners. 1. is mostly irrelevant, because it was already ridiculously easy to max boon uptime for any squad that actually cared about it. 5 and 6 are irrelevant, because vitality is probably the least important of defensive factors, and defence in general is so inconsequential compared to offense anyway. So, the only actual buffs are in point 4 - but guess what, for the most part they happened to weapons that were significantly subpar before, and didn't make it to the top even after those changes. So, basically, the only powercreep from that huge list that actually matters is ranger's axe. No, even engi rifle does not count, because it's not the rifle that is an issue there but the mechanist traits and mech itself.

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 9/2/2022 at 1:49 PM, Labjax.2465 said:

Bringing the term IQ into it makes me laugh a bit, ngl

It should, it was meant as a joke. Current Dragons End meta chain and last boss is in sweet spot, where it is no longer abusively hard, but its not really doable by watching film on second screen.

[Hashberry.4510]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

5 and 6 are irrelevant, because vitality is probably the least important of defensive factors

I dunno, its lets me skip some marauder gear for zerk, for example, on lower health toons. My guards, eles, theives, etc really like it. I think you have mentioned its less important vs  percent of health damage, I agree that is a good point.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Hashberry.4510