Whats the point of "pure DPS" elite specs now?

[Ashgar.3024]

Talking about Daredevil, Deadeye, Holosmith, Reaper and so on.

 

Whats their purpose in the game when any support Elite can output just as much damage?

 

Its nice that more elites get more boon access but the ones that don't just seem to get left behind completely.

 

Only exception is Virtuoso cause its a fully Ranged build that has access to Mesmer's insane utility toolkit 

 

For example there's currently no reason to play Holosmith anymore, Mecanist is just better in every conceivable way except maybe raw burst damage, which got neutered with the exposed changes.

 

Might need to look into that.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Hashberry.4510]

The reason is to enjoy playing a more difficult class and doing it well. Smh.

[Ashgar.3024]

10 minutes ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

The reason is to enjoy playing a more difficult class and doing it well. Smh.

Literally irrelevant if you play with people who will do well regardless of what they play.

 

Ask most end game players, they'll pick whatever provides the highest and most consistent numbers.

 

Simple as that.

 

I just think that it should be the "boonless" Elites as far as raw DPS is concerned. Otherwise Anet is spending a ton of money developing Roleplay specs.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Valisha.8650]

Maybe give reaper alac on shouts, deadeye/daredevil quickness on... whatever they use, etc. That way we fix useless elite specs, and give all classes access to 2 most important boons.

[anbujackson.9564]

14 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Maybe give reaper alac on shouts, deadeye/daredevil quickness on... whatever they use, etc. That way we fix useless elite specs, and give all classes access to 2 most important boons.

That doesnt really matter though. Before flying around more boons, they might want to adress the performance gap between specs first. 

I mean lets be honest. Who would play alac reaper? Daredevil quickness I could see though, only thanks to their strong stolen skills (in raids anyway). Unlikely to be played for power when there is herald, which has extreme value due to its boons and F2

[Ashgar.3024]

Quickness Daredevil is technically already a thing on a handful of raid fights (Boon Thief gives Quickness).

 

Works on Mathias, MO and Adina, basically any fights where your stolen skill is Detonate Plasma. But its a gimick anyway, only fight i still bother using it is Mathias cause the Resolution/Resistance/Stab you also get from Detonate Plasma is really valuable there while on Adina or MO it doesn't really matter.

 

I don't think the answer is to give boon support to literally every Elite spec though. 

 

What's the problem with having pure dps builds anyway?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Literally irrelevant if you play with people who will do well regardless of what they play

HOLD ON ... so it's irrelevant for someone to play a harder build they like which MIGHT be one of the DPS ones you listed because of OTHER people that do well regardless of what they play?

I think you need to re-evaluate the reasons people play MMO's in general and why they make choices for classes they play. If you think people are ONLY choosing to play builds because they are 'relevant' when playing with people who do well, you have some mighty strong tunnel vision going on there.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Whats their purpose in the game when any support Elite can output just as much damage?

This game has so many nuances with each class it would take a very long time of playing each one to truly know if this point holds true. I mean I play Power Chonomancer PVE not because it has the best damage or I can output boons but solely because I self buff Might and Quickness (which is hard to find in pugs) and also apply the hardiest to find Control Effect Taunt.

I'm able to fight large numbers of enemies and keep them off me with Phantasmal Defender spam while CC bosses with the unique control effect. I mean hey it might not be ideal for me to play this but I feel like I'm contributing my unique aspect to a PVE fight.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I've asked very similar questions in my balance philosophy thread.  Would be nice to get an answer from Anet instead of wanton speculation from players...

[Hashberry.4510]

19 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Ask most end game players, they'll pick whatever provides the highest and most consistent numbers.

Yep, this is a huge problem with these sort of players, they can’t enjoy themselves if less skilled players can do as well in a hugely artificial situation. This is really their problem, its plagued the playground forever.

[Fueki.4753]

The biggest point of most elite specializations is simply their theme.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I've asked very similar questions in my balance philosophy thread.  Would be nice to get an answer from Anet instead of wanton speculation from players...

Yeah the players who favor support want their builds if played 100% right to do the same DPS as an average DPS player, which is not right to me.

I think pure DPS options should sit above 40k if played at an average skill level, 48k should be the absolute ceiling, if something breaks that ceiling it should be nerfed. If a Pure DPS build cannot get above 40k then it should be buffed or provided group support on top of what it already does.

Pure support support should not do more than 25k as an absolute ceiling. If a support does more than that it should get it's damage nerfed. 20k should be the dps floor on a support spec.

Hybrids support/dps builds should not do more than 35k if played at 100% efficiency. 30k if played at an average level, and 25k as a skill floor.

[AliamRationem.5172]

26 minutes ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

Yep, this is a huge problem with these sort of players, they can’t enjoy themselves if less skilled players can do as well in a hugely artificial situation. This is really their problem, its plagued the playground forever.

Apparently neither can less skilled players enjoy themselves unless specs are designed to allow them to overperform in real scenarios.  It's a huge problem with this sort of player.  If you balance appropriately so that a spec that is selfish with a variety of other limitations and is difficult to play well performs better than a spec that performs well no matter what you do and has virtually no limitations, then that's preventing them from participating and enjoying the game somehow.

[SlayerXX.7138]

21 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Whats their purpose in the game when any support Elite can output just as much damage?

Fun and variety? You know kind of relevant in a GAME. You know there is also a Open World in the game. I'm not interested getting my OW build get gutted for a minor tweak in Instanced content, ala invigorating precision. 

Speaking of thief. I wouldn't want to give up any of my grandmaster traits for Quickness dodge as they are all highly relevant in one form or another. Deatheye has only banger traits. Even the worst is 10 man might.

Its pointless anyways. Either you play hardcore so 80% of the elites are useless to you anyway, or you don't play hardcore end elite choice doesn't matter anyway. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Zaret.1450]

22 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Talking about Daredevil, Deadeye, Holosmith, Reaper and so on.

 

Whats their purpose in the game when any support Elite can output just as much damage?

 

Its nice that more elites get more boon access but the ones that don't just seem to get left behind completely.

 

Only exception is Virtuoso cause its a fully Ranged build that has access to Mesmer's insane utility toolkit 

 

For example there's currently no reason to play Holosmith anymore, Mecanist is just better in every conceivable way except maybe raw burst damage, which got neutered with the exposed changes.

 

Might need to look into that.

the thing is, virtuoso has a huge dmg output, it was on nearly 40k last time i checked, also mesmers have tons of cc and utility (at least utility from a pure dps perspective)

if you compare virtu to other pure dps elites, dh, vindi, reaper, daredevil, the biggest difference is in dmg, and lets be clear, what do people want from a dps elite most of the time? suport and utility? or a BIG BADABOOM number? yeah if you know more you start knowing that utility is exactly that, utility, something usefull, but most randoms or not so invested players want to see a 40k number and say HAHAHHA F noob im the best, while on speedruns on raids for example the classes with huge dmg output shine too, while something like a reaper or dd just have a spot for new player friendly class to learn, even classes like vindi, that have decent dmg output, cant shine above said virtuoso because it doesnt have enought cc for example.

also there is the problem of condi dps being absurdly strong now and with the same or even better utility.

All that said, do pure dps classes need to share boons, or have selfless traits to buff your alies? i dont think so, a pure power dps needs a good dmg based on the meta, right now around 38k would be good, good access to cc,  and good field and finishers to combo, while suports should never go above 30k in dmg so the difference is clear.

of course you cant make everything the same, but if for example reaper has 36k, with great cc with golem and gs5, survival with shroud, while holo could have less cc and survival but reach 39k dps, that 3k would make the diference but for some people a reaper woukd be a surefire class that even if not 1 in dmg it wont lag behind, now the difference is in some cases near 8k and nothing to cover the diference.

[Ashgar.3024]

2 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

Yep, this is a huge problem with these sort of players, they can’t enjoy themselves if less skilled players can do as well in a hugely artificial situation. This is really their problem, its plagued the playground forever.

On one hand i get where you're coming from.

 

On the other i enjoy raiding and high end fractals and see no reason why people should drag me around if i'm making mathematically inefficient choices.  Its a team game.

 

Just don't see why people are so outraged by the idea, specially if you're more interested in casual play.

 

In what way would Holo being actually competitive with power mecanist would ruin your casual game, for example?

 

I'm not asking for nerfs. I want pure dps specs to get buffed.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Kuma.1503]

Power Weaver also gets outperformed by Power Catalyst, and the latter also brings miscellaneous boons. 

They made a half-hearted attempt to make weaver more desirable by giving them small traces of AoE barrier on dual skills, but it's not enough to make power weaver relevant. 

At least it's not the most underpowered spec anymore. Pretty sure that title goes to Reaper now. 

[Ashgar.3024]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Power Weaver also gets outperformed by Power Catalyst, and the latter also brings miscellaneous boons. 

Yeah i just commented on classes i know. Most "pure" specs are currently underperforming in general, save for maybe Soulbeast, Bladesworn,(and even then these are weird cases since their core specs get Alac/Quickness now which i feel will be a balancing nightmare) and Virtuoso (40k bench from 1200 range on the move while having acess to boonstrip, portal, mass invis etc.).

 

Even new ones like Vindicator are pretty pointless in PvE (to stick with the 3 professions i lnow well which is Thief Engi and Rev).

 

But Vindicator is also a weird niche concept that feels overloaded in PvP but kind of pointless in PvE, just like Deadeye -.-, so not holding hopes for it.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Mell.4873]

52 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Most "pure" specs are currently underperforming in general, save for maybe Soulbeast, Bladesworn,(and even then these are weird cases since their core specs get Alac/Quickness now which i feel will be a balancing nightmare) and Virtuoso (40k bench from 1200 range on the move while having acess to boonstrip, portal, mass invis etc.).

Most "pure" damage specs don't appear on website like Snowcrow, etc because they are not used in raids or strikes. I mean I know for a fact that Holosmith can still get above 30k but no one wants this class because Mechanist exists.

Virtuoso was once heralded as the selfish DPS that contributes nothing to a group so it was worse than Scourge who could provide at least some barrier. I mean this whole thread speaks of weird problem stemming from the addition of a few support specs that can get high personal DPS numbers.

[anbujackson.9564]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah the players who favor support want their builds if played 100% right to do the same DPS as an average DPS player, which is not right to me.

I think pure DPS options should sit above 40k if played at an average skill level, 48k should be the absolute ceiling, if something breaks that ceiling it should be nerfed. If a Pure DPS build cannot get above 40k then it should be buffed or provided group support on top of what it already does.

Pure support support should not do more than 25k as an absolute ceiling. If a support does more than that it should get it's damage nerfed. 20k should be the dps floor on a support spec.

Hybrids support/dps builds should not do more than 35k if played at 100% efficiency. 30k if played at an average level, and 25k as a skill floor.

While I agree with your general idea, your dps numbers are way too high, absurdly even. Cut down the numbers in every category by 10k and we are good. The last thing I need is even more powercreep and PvE content dieing even faster right after overall dps was reduced in the first place (spirits, banners etc). Except MAYBE strike cms, no content is built around such numbers. Even 38k maximum is arguably even too much (in my opinion anyway).

 

6 hours ago, Hashberry.4510 said:

Yep, this is a huge problem with these sort of players, they can’t enjoy themselves if less skilled players can do as well in a hugely artificial situation. This is really their problem, its plagued the playground forever.

I am all in playing something different, else I couldnt endure the same content over and over again. The problem in endgame is though that there are times when you want to do your absolute best (like as dps). Fun in general will only get you so far. So imagine playing a holosmith or berserker or whatever power dps you can think of and be in a squad full of rifle mechs. They outperform you damage and utility wise. So your absolute best will always be worse. You play games for fun and you play games to win. If you dont win, you loose motivation. Its as simple as that. Of course not everyone wants to win in that sense. But its like practicing for a specific sport just to get beaten by the whole competition because they got an advantage you dont have (in gw2 that would be more possible dps, utility for free and the ease of getting your maximum value). Do you continue this sport that way? Probably not.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

While I agree with your general idea, your dps numbers are way too high, absurdly even. Cut down the numbers in every category by 10k and we are good. The last thing I need is even more powercreep and PvE content dieing even faster right after overall dps was reduced in the first place (spirits, banners etc). Except MAYBE strike cms, no content is built around such numbers. Even 38k maximum is arguably even too much (in my opinion anyway).

 

I am all in playing something different, else I couldnt endure the same content over and over again. The problem in endgame is though that there are times when you want to do your absolute best (like as dps). Fun in general will only get you so far. So imagine playing a holosmith or berserker or whatever power dps you can think of and be in a squad full of rifle mechs. They outperform you damage and utility wise. So your absolute best will always be worse. You play games for fun and you play games to win. If you dont win, you loose motivation. Its as simple as that. Of course not everyone wants to win in that sense. But its like practicing for a specific sport just to get beaten by the whole competition because they got an advantage you dont have (in gw2 that would be more possible dps, utility for free and the ease of getting your maximum value). Do you continue this sport that way? Probably not.

I was leaving room on the high end for higher skill ceiling specs to have justification for their existence. The general DPS build should be benching 40k. There are several above that, but several also below that.

[Ashgar.3024]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Most "pure" damage specs don't appear on website like Snowcrow, etc because they are not used in raids or strikes. I mean I know for a fact that Holosmith can still get above 30k but no one wants this class because Mechanist exists.

Yeah on Golems or fights that are virtually Golems like MO, KC or CA. Its useless anywhere else.

 

Problem is twofold with Holo. One is its damage profile, its built to exploit short high burst windows (which is also why its still great on KC and CA), which is a fun and rewarding playstyle to pull off. But the neutering of the exposed windows heavily dampened how beneficial that damage profile is with 0 compensation to Holo's fairly poor sustained damage. Honestly this isn't purely a Holo problem, most Power builds fell out of favor because of this but Holo was probably one of the builds hit the hardest by it.

 

Second problem is simply uptime. Holo is mostly melee with few midrange cooldowns. Which means any kind of movement during a fight kills its dps.

 

Meanwhile in Mecanist-Land most of your damage comes from a bot that will stick to the boss like glue no matter what and the rest comes from a weapon with nearly infinite range (within the scope of a boss arena anyway.) Its going to be a nightmare for Anet to try to balance a spec with 99% boss uptime, should they even want to try to balance it at all. Other games faced this issue (hello WoW BM Hunter) and the end solution was always to tune them to be low to middle of the pack benchmark wise and have them require very tight execution and manage various self-buffs and cooldowns to be competitive. This isn't what we're seeing with the Mecanist who get a huge chunk of its damage from passive procs and pet/rifle auto-attacks.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Shao.7236]

Because there's no such thing as "support elites".

From the very start all content always was made with having everything in mind.

[Ashgar.3024]

3 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Because there's no such thing as "support elites".

From the very start all content always was made with having everything in mind.

Tell me with a straight face Druid, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge, Tempest and even Specter weren't built from the ground up to be support specs from the start.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Mell.4873]

8 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Problem is twofold with Holo. One is its damage profile, its built to exploit short high burst windows (which is also why its still great on KC and CA), which is a fun and rewarding playstyle to pull off. But the neutering of the exposed windows heavily dampened how beneficial that damage profile is with 0 compensation to Holo's fairly poor sustained damage. Honestly this isn't purely a Holo problem, most Power builds fell out of favor because of this but Holo was probably one of the builds hit the hardest by it.

Second problem is simply uptime. Holo is mostly melee with few midrange cooldowns. Which means any kind of movement during a fight kills its dps.

I agree but It just sounds like they need to buff Holosmith or power builds in general to fix this issue. 

The problem is definitely not that support dps exist.