Suggestion #999 on how to improve spellbreaker: make it a barrier support

[Kuya.6495]

Now you might be thinking: "warriors with barrier!? Next you'll be asking for staff warrior!!!" But the tools for something like a barrier support on warrior are already there: we have barrier on warhorn and we have barrier on banner. And much like scourge, warrior healing is more of a sustained rather than burst healing. I think perhaps a similar approach as with scourge can be taken with spellbreaker to make it a viable and perhaps even meta support. 

 

Now for my suggestions: aside from giving warrior more access to barriers via spellbreaker, I also make suggestions to make spellbreaker niches, such as boon removal and cc/interrupts, more relevant in pve. Now without further delay:

 

1. Now I suggest reworking spellbreaker traits into 3 categories and having each category supported by adept, master and grandmaster traits: support via barrier and healing, offensive support via boons, and cc bar damage/dps. Additionally, one line would be focused on modifying boon removal, another on modifying crowd control and the third would focus on enhancing burst skills/full counter.

 

2. For barrier/healing:

A. I would suggest one trait that makes it so full counter, when triggered, provides nearby allies with barrier, stunbreak and 1 stack of stability.

 

B. Another trait can make it so every time you remove a boon, allies around you receive barrier. Since not all bosses have boons, the trait can also make it so regen provided by the warrior is stronger.

 

C. And finally a third trait would make it so every time a spellbreaker interrupts an enemy or damages a cc bar allies are given barrier. Since cc bars only appear occasionally, the trait can also make it so whenever a spellbreaker uses a burst skill nearby allies are given protection and regen. These 3 traits would be divided between adept, master and grandmaster. 

 

3. For offensive boon support, my suggestions are the following:

 

A. One trait can make it so removing a boon from an enemy copies that boon to nearby allies. Since enemies in pve don't always have boons, the trait can also increase your baseline boon duration or concentration.

 

B. Another trait can make it so when you interrupt enemies or damage cc bars you give allies quickness and when you use a burst skill, your nearby allies gain might and fury.

 

C. And finally another trait can make it so when your full counter is triggered you extend the duration of boons on your nearby allies. 

 

4. Another set of traits can enhance a spellbreaker's damage and cc skills:

 

A. One trait can make it so when a spellbreaker removes boons, they gain a stacking buff that gives the spellbreaker bonus damage. The buff can be something like 5% damage per stack and stacks up to 5 times or something. And again, since boons aren't always available to remove in pve, the trait can also make it so you get a permanent increase in damage baseline.

 

B. Another traitline can make it so interrupting enemies or damaging cc bars also helps you maintain and stack the damage up buff we spoke about previously. This trait can also make it so boons on yourself (and only on yourself) are extended whenever you use a burst skill.

 

C. And finally the last trait can make it so your crowd control skills have increased duration and make it so cc bars take bonus damage from your cc skills. The trait can also make it so when an enemy cc bar is successfully broken you gain another damage up buff that stacks on top of the buff discussed previously.

 

The idea with these suggestions isn't to make spellbreaker replace bladesworn but to create the possibility that in certain encounters where there are a lot of cc bars and boons, spellbreaker could potentially out dps other warrior specializations. 

 

Also note I haven't said which of the above traits should be adept, master or grandmaster. That I would leave up to anet. 

 

5. Utilities: in order to support the previous suggestions I feel a few utilities should get additional benefits:

 

A. Fearherfoot grace should, on top of it's previous effects,  also stunbreak allies and grant them one stack of stability. As you've noticed, we've given spellbreaker two ways to give allies stability and with a banner, spellbreaker has 3 ways to give stability to allies. This makes spellbreaker a potential competition for firebrand but it also opens up the potential for spellbreaker to complement firebrand: firebrands do direct healing, spellbreakers give barriers. They both give quickness but spellbreakers extends boons.

 

B. Winds of disenchantment should also pulse barrier on allies who are inside the bubble. Spellbreaker, based on my suggestions, has the potential to give out constant barrier, via cc, via full counter, via boon removal, but in situations where mechanics are being done, it's possible a spellbreaker can't get to an enemy to actually activate any barrier at all, other elites such as scourge, mechanist and specter, can give barrier on demand without a need to engage an enemy to provide it. In order to get ahead of that problem, spellbreaker should also receive some on demand barrier application for such situations so it's not completely outclassed by other barrier based supports.

 

C. Break enchantments should also apply regen and barrier to nearby allies. In the same token of not putting spellbreaker at the mercy of always needing to attack an enemy to give barrier, I also suggest giving this utility, which is useless in fights with no boons, the added utility of giving barrier and regen. Since a trait I suggested earlier increases the potency of regen, this synergizes well with the kit. 

 

Wrap up: now you might have noticed that I didn't specify how much barrier, how many stacks, how much boon duration or what traits to keep or change. The truth is that the only ones who are going to be able to determine how much barrier is too much barrier and how big the damage up buff can be for removing boons without it being overpowered is anet. 

 

My suggestions are only meant to do two things: make "heal" warrior potentially a meta pick by creating a niche for it (a quickness barrier support with boon extension) while also creating opportunities for spellbreaker to shine in pve even in situations where there are no boons to remove or cc bars to break. I personally would have preferred to have spellbreaker be the quickness elite for warrior but since anet already decided to make quickness on warrior baseline, I decided not to reinvent that and just give spellbreaker opportunities to easily maintain quickness with less investment by giving it bonus boon duration and boon extension abilities. The idea is also to let spellbreaker give quickness easier so they can actually use the barrier/stab/aegis from banners for reactive purposes. Same reason I suggested putting might and fury in a trait when you use burst skills so banners aren't as mandatory on spellbreaker and it has more flexibility like firebrand has for providing quickness.

 

While I used scourge as an example, I also wanted to give spellbreaker its own niche. Scourge gives barrier yes, but it also does aoe rez. Mech gives barrier yes, but it also does alac and has easy access to stab and aegis. The idea with spellbreaker is to give it both access to constant barrier like with mech, and also give it its own niche as the quickness provider, that does boon removal and potentially the spec that does the most breakbar damage. 

 

Concerns: I could see my suggestions making spellbreaker pretty broken in SPvP. Hopefully if any of these ideas were implemented the base barrier generation would be pretty low without healing power investment in pvp so it doesn't become overpowered. An icd in pvp for the trait that copies removed boons to allies might be a good idea too as well as a very low duration for the boons copied as well.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Sigh...no...just stop.

SPELLBREAKER IS NOT A SUPPORT. IT IS A BOON-STRIPPING SPEC.

STOP listening to those streamers talking all that noise. It is a boon-stripping spec. That is what it is designed around. And also, that's what is actually needed at this stage of the game, where there is boon-vomit everywhere.

[Loboling.5293]

46 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Sigh...no...just stop.

SPELLBREAKER IS NOT A SUPPORT. IT IS A BOON-STRIPPING SPEC.

STOP listening to those streamers talking all that noise. It is a boon-stripping spec. That is what it is designed around. And also, that's what is actually needed at this stage of the game, where there is boon-vomit everywhere.

True dat. Spellbreaker needs to be a better boon stripper, and they need to bring back some damage to certain cc's. Especially some in the warrior kit. If you can play disruption, countering opponents magics, than you are playing spellbreaker. It doesn't need a new role, it needs to do it's role better. 

[Yerlock.4678]

37 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Sigh...no...just stop.

SPELLBREAKER IS NOT A SUPPORT. IT IS A BOON-STRIPPING SPEC.

STOP listening to those streamers talking all that noise. It is a boon-stripping spec. That is what it is designed around. And also, that's what is actually needed at this stage of the game, where there is boon-vomit everywhere.

This is correct. The spec is made for boon stripping, not heals. Tactics provides heals but there’s no specialized boon “spec” other than tactics. Maybe future spec will be support specialized but for now it’s not. Bladespam and sb can synergize with tactics and thereby be a support class (especially BS) but that’s not their function per se.

 

This is why I hate tactics actually because there’s no specialized support class for warrior in any expansion. They all just roll off tactics. This is an issue because if they make a new warrior spec that is made to be support it must synergize with tactics. Which isn’t good because BS and so many other builds already do that, I.e. lazy design. This would pigeon hole a future support spec for warrior without massive reworks. 
 

Imo they should make core warrior stand on its own two feet. Why? Because every spec relies off of it. They already buffed tactics very well now they need to make defense and arms viable.  If they don’t do that then every future spec and current one will overly rely on tactics. That’s lazy and boring. So in order to do this they must balance with the forethought of future specs in mind.

 

Tldr: buff and fix Arms, Defense, Signets, Stances etc. and let core Warrior stand on its own two feet. This will help balancing especs and make life easier. Core =\= weaker than especs.

[oscuro.9720]

I have to disagree with you on this one. Spell is, and always has been a competitive first spec, and that’s OK. It’s underlying mechanic, while extremely well designed and scalable in competitive modes, is kind of restricting in PvE. It requires enemy input to work. This doesn’t work well in a game mode that has become a focus on set damage rotations. Spell also has a focus on boon rip, something that, again, doesn’t translate well to pve. 
 

Imo, there are better ways to expand warrior’s roles in instanced pve, and spell isn’t really the way to do that. The individual ideas are all pretty decent, but there are probably better places to put them on war than reworking spell. That’s just my opinion, always good to see people sharing new ideas 🙂 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Please, be kinder to dark theme users...

[Vancho.8750]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I have to disagree with you on this one. Spell is, and always has been a competitive first spec, and that’s OK. It’s underlying mechanic, while extremely well designed and scalable in competitive modes, is kind of restricting in PvE. It requires enemy input to work. This doesn’t work well in a game mode that has become a focus on set damage rotations. Spell also has a focus on boon rip, something that, again, doesn’t translate well to pve. 
 

Imo, there are better ways to expand warrior’s roles in instanced pve, and spell isn’t really the way to do that. The individual ideas are all pretty decent, but there are probably better places to put them on war than reworking spell. That’s just my opinion, always good to see people sharing new ideas 🙂 

Yet I still think that the whole "but its competitive speck" is nonsense that people should stop repeating, currently it is the only "competitive speck" in the game and it is not even very good at it which would imply that it is just badly designed spec . Boon rip is also non mechanic to be the seller of the spec since Necro and Mesmer get that kitten by default, stop repeating Arenanet's sellers spiel for spec that they scrounged together last minute.
If it gains group support for PVE in lets say defensive boons like protection and resolution and maybe idk aegis or stability, it will translate also in buffs for WvW. It either gets useful for PVE or it gets forgotten everywhere and bumping its damage like they have been doing for some time ain't gona make it an option over Berserker or Bladesworn.  

[oscuro.9720]

1 minute ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Yet I still think that the whole "but its competitive speck" is nonsense that people should stop repeating, currently it is the only "competitive speck" in the game and it is not even very good at it which would imply that it is just badly designed spec . Boon rip is also non mechanic to be the seller of the spec since Necro and Mesmer get that kitten by default, stop repeating Arenanet's sellers spiel for spec that they scrounged together last minute.
If it gains group support for PVE in lets say defensive boons like protection and resolution and maybe idk aegis or stability, it will translate also in buffs for WvW. It either gets useful for PVE or it gets forgotten everywhere and bumping its damage like they have been doing for some time ain't gona make it an option over Berserker or Bladesworn.  

You are free to disagree. It’s kind of expected since people don’t all hold the same views. I’m not repeating “Andy’s sellers spiel”, since their spiel is “I counter your magics!” and spell clearly doesn’t do that presently. 
You are wrong to call boon strip a non-mechanic for warrior. Yes other classes can rip boons, but that is besides the point. It’s expanding the capabilities of warrior into an area that warrior previously did not have. This is a good thing. It’s also not the only aspect of its mechanics that were introduced. 
I genuinely believe spell works best as a competitive first spec. However, if you go through my posts I readily state that, with that being the case, it should maintain a strong place in the meta, which it currently does not. Ideally, this would be the role of a high-floor-high-ceiling spec that has the highest potential ceiling out of all war specs and sits in the top end of the meta. This is not the case presently. As such, some drastic things do need to change for spell, as I have stated many times in the past. However, making these changes with the intent of making it a pve support class is misguided IMO. Especially when the meta needs more and stronger anti-boon classes atm and none are good enough. This is the exact role that spell can step into and fill appropriately. There are a variety of ways this can be done. 
Again, you are free to disagree 🙂 

[Opopanax.1803]

3 hours ago, Loboling.5293 said:

True dat. Spellbreaker needs to be a better boon stripper, and they need to bring back some damage to certain cc's. Especially some in the warrior kit. If you can play disruption, countering opponents magics, than you are playing spellbreaker. It doesn't need a new role, it needs to do it's role better. 

I agree.  

1. they will not turn it into Support... too drastic of a swing

2. Spellbreaker was really hurt from the update that took damage away from CC.  Spellbreaker's thing needs to be damage on CC/boon strip.

3. Lastly, if they just made the utilities WORTH TAKING that would go a long way to making the spec playable.  

[JTGuevara.9018]

3 minutes ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

I agree.  

1. they will not turn it into Support... too drastic of a swing

2. Spellbreaker was really hurt from the update that took damage away from CC.  Spellbreaker's thing needs to be damage on CC/boon strip.

3. Lastly, if they just made the utilities WORTH TAKING that would go a long way to making the spec playable.  

Yup. Just another casualty of The Great Balance Patch of 2020.

[Vancho.8750]

2 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

You are free to disagree. It’s kind of expected since people don’t all hold the same views. I’m not repeating “Andy’s sellers spiel”, since their spiel is “I counter your magics!” and spell clearly doesn’t do that presently. 
You are wrong to call boon strip a non-mechanic for warrior. Yes other classes can rip boons, but that is besides the point. It’s expanding the capabilities of warrior into an area that warrior previously did not have. This is a good thing. It’s also not the only aspect of its mechanics that were introduced. 
I genuinely believe spell works best as a competitive first spec. However, if you go through my posts I readily state that, with that being the case, it should maintain a strong place in the meta, which it currently does not. Ideally, this would be the role of a high-floor-high-ceiling spec that has the highest potential ceiling out of all war specs and sits in the top end of the meta. This is not the case presently. As such, some drastic things do need to change for spell, as I have stated many times in the past. However, making these changes with the intent of making it a pve support class is misguided IMO. Especially when the meta needs more and stronger anti-boon classes atm and none are good enough. This is the exact role that spell can step into and fill appropriately. There are a variety of ways this can be done. 
Again, you are free to disagree 🙂 

I disagree completely here since in my opinion every spec should be good in every mode, the whole PVE/PVP spec is too restrictive and applied at random. The same thinking got warrior 3 specs that do the same kitten. 
Also another point SPVP is done for Arenanet, it ain't getting anything new and having spec that is limited to it, means it is dead content like dungeons. 

[Opopanax.1803]

1 minute ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I disagree completely here since in my opinion every spec should be good in every mode, the whole PVE/PVP spec is too restrictive and applied at random. The same thinking got warrior 3 specs that do the same kitten. 
Also another point SPVP is done for Arenanet, it ain't getting anything new and having spec that is limited to it, means it is dead content like dungeons. 

Yes, 

3 Melee Power specs is beyond dumb... and when they gave us pistol... they made it MELEE... my gosh, there is no help from the Devs...

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I disagree completely here since in my opinion every spec should be good in every mode, the whole PVE/PVP spec is too restrictive and applied at random. The same thinking got warrior 3 specs that do the same kitten. 
Also another point SPVP is done for Arenanet, it ain't getting anything new and having spec that is limited to it, means it is dead content like dungeons. 

Perfectly reasonable disagreement. We just have radically different views, which is great. Hopefully people will read through this discussion, and use the opinions presented to come to their own conclusion, and maybe that’s something new and we can all learn more togethe \o/ Take care friendo 🙂 

[Loboling.5293]

3 hours ago, Opopanax.1803 said:

Yes, 

3 Melee Power specs is beyond dumb... and when they gave us pistol... they made it MELEE... my gosh, there is no help from the Devs...

Ya melee pistol was a funny way to tell the players they care. I wanted to see one of two things: A staff martial arts support, or a double pistol ranged alchemy master (basically harbinger with warrior flavor). 

[Kuya.6495]

I think where I disagree with most people here is their insistence on theme over functionality.  You want spellbreaker to keep being just the boon rip build that is just ok in pvp. I think warrior needs a support specialization and currently spellbreaker is the most useless out of the 3 in pve, so it's naturally the focus of my attention.

 

I'm not personally a fan of putting class theme over role or functionality. Class theme is precisely what got warrior 3 elite specializations that essentially all fill the same role. It's not surprising that warrior mains have few options. 

 

It's fine if people disagree with reworking spellbreaker into something you can make into a support specialization, but I think the insistence on theme over functionality is not doing spellbreaker nor warrior any favors.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Kuya.6495

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I just hope they don't destroy Spellbreaker if they really want to rework it into a support. 

 

[Vancho.8750]

4 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think where I disagree with most people here is their insistence on theme over functionality.  You want spellbreaker to keep being just the boon rip build that is just ok in pvp. I think warrior needs a support specialization and currently spellbreaker is the most useless out of the 3 in pve, so it's naturally the focus of my attention.

 

I'm not personally a fan of putting class theme over role or functionality. Class theme is precisely what got warrior 3 elite specializations that essentially all fill the same role. It's not surprising that warrior mains have few options. 

 

It's fine if people disagree with reworking spellbreaker into something you can make into a support specialization, but I think the insistence on theme over functionality is not doing spellbreaker nor warrior any favors.

Realistically the main mechanic Full counter screams tank, the issue is that GW2 tanks need to bring heavy support to be useful and it is not like the utility slot skills on SpB are almost useless that could go with some good rework.
Also I do not understand why people are against it being a support, currently the supports get to do everything while dominating PVE and WvW, both scourge and firebrand are a staple with support and damage builds and the only reason there are less in PVE is that another heavy utility support spec came with EOD.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Loboling.5293 said:

 a double pistol ranged alchemy master (basically harbinger with warrior flavor). 

That was what my take on a warrior/engineer cross over was when I was posting elite spec ideas.

The melee OH only pistol is such a cruel joke by the devs.

[Vancho.8750]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That was what my take on a warrior/engineer cross over was when I was posting elite spec ideas.

The melee OH only pistol is such a cruel joke by the devs.

So they do read the warrior forum, they just don't like us.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

As for turning Spellbreaker into a support, I think you can do that with very few changes.

1. Full Counter now gains a flipover that triggers it's attack at reduced effectiveness. Same effects, but lower daze duration and lower damage.
2. Guard Counter now also grants Resolution for 4s, and grants it's boons in an area when triggered.
3. Revenge Counter now transfers 3 conditions from nearby allies when Full Counter is activated and grants those allies and the warrior 4s of resistance. When Full Counter is triggered it transfers all conditions on the warrior to foes struck and the attack gains increased damage. 
4. Mage Bane Tether now tethers all enemies struck by a burst, instead of only one.
5. Dispelling Force now grants ripped boons to allies in the area of the Spellbreaker.

That gives you on your mechanic an AoE protection, resolution, resistance, and mass condition cleanse for the party. You also have the option for mass CC to help in competitive modes and Dispelling Force gives you a niche support option in that you steal boons and grant them to everyone in your subgroup/party/randos nearby smelling your sweaty pits.
 

[Valisha.8650]

Imagine arguing against a buff for spellbreaker into an actually practical role because of some silly "class theme".

I feel like warrior mains truly deserve the bannerslave role 😄 

[Fueki.4753]

20 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Sigh...no...just stop.

SPELLBREAKER IS NOT A SUPPORT. IT IS A BOON-STRIPPING SPEC.

STOP listening to those streamers talking all that noise. It is a boon-stripping spec. That is what it is designed around. And also, that's what is actually needed at this stage of the game, where there is boon-vomit everywhere.

It originally was supposed to be that. Yet, it's the aspect of Spellbreaker that has been nerfed the most.

I agree that it is needed and Spellbreaker should strip boons at least as efficient as the best boon provider vomits its boons.

However, I doubt they will do something like that, after they actively went out of their way to nerf Spellbreaker exclusively for the sake of protecting their beloved boon vomit.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Aeolus.3615]

23 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Imagine arguing against a buff for spellbreaker into an actually practical role because of some silly "class theme".

I feel like warrior mains truly deserve the bannerslave role 😄 

What if warriors would become warriors??? i think would be inovative and game changer!!

Spelbreaker could be the anti boon unerfed warrior that could denny and target specific boons in 1st place while being a strong spec towards pvp combat, oh wait... Anet devs need to carry players so they cant complain they cant be carried i forgot wich company this game belongs.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Infinity.2876]

I'm going to try and eyeball what a better boon strip spellbreaker would look like

 

Traits:

enchantment collapse: additionally has a chance(33%) to corupt( or steal ) boons removed( 1st target only) and  should trigger on removing a boon from your self(so this can proc off of natural healing. If you would corrupt(or steal) the boon you would keep it. Essentially you have a chance to only remove 5 boons instead of the normal 6)

loss aversion: add swiftness (I just thought this would be cool not really thematic tho)

Sun and moon style: dagger skills pierce additionally 

 

skills(dagger):

Wrastrels ruin: additionally deals additional damage to foes without boons

Disrupting stab: instead of additional duration of daze, daze would be replaced by stun(1/4 sec)

Aura slicer: should remove aura and maybe remove one boon

Breaching strike: increase boons removed from 2 to 4(PvP only)

 

Other skills:

Natural healing: reduce boons removed to 6 instead of 7 and reduce conditions removed to 6 instead of 7

Break enchantments: increase boons removed from 2 to 4(PvP only)

Imminent threat: additionally grants might per foe effected

Sight beyond sight: removes confusion additionally

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Infinity.2876

[oscuro.9720]

16 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I think where I disagree with most people here is their insistence on theme over functionality.  You want spellbreaker to keep being just the boon rip build that is just ok in pvp. 

No, you misunderstand. I want spell breaker to be a high-ceiling high-floor boon rip build that is in the top of the meta in pvp. Spell is not good enough as it is 🙂