Has PvP gotten harder over the years? (higher skill caps)

[Gerrand.3085]

*A crotchety old man limps up to the bar*

 

A question for all you young whippersnappers: Has it become harder to compete in SPvP over the seasons? I've been playing GW2 since the Karka queen event and I've gone from (at my prime) Upper gold rank to (in PoF) lower gold rank and finally (EOD) to getting summarily crushed in conquest. Seriously, I'm dragging myself through pvp as a way to get legendary medium armor and I'm consistently losing 3 out of 4 matches - and given the exchanges in those matches, I'm just being carried in 1 of 4 rounds.

 

The most obvious answer to my plight (and the pugs matched with me) is I've just gotten too old to compete... at the ancient age of 30.

 

That aside though, it feels like not only are the new elite specs more powerful but they have a much higher skill cap then the builds of old - even for players at bottom silver. I used to stick to fairly simple builds like necro/reaper, guardian/dragonhunter and occasionally revenant/smork but it seems one now has to consistently pull off much more complicated combos to even dent the hp of other players. Not sure if its just a load of bots, if all the worse players fled in prior seasons or if I've just gotten really bad at computer games. 

 

I was personally hoping I'd drop to copper where I seem to belong but I keep winning half of my kitten ranking matches and getting placed mid-silver over and over again -.-

 

So back to the question: Is playing PvP more complex at all levels then it used to be - or do I just need to be wheeled off to a retirement home?

 

 

[anjo.6143]

Did u ever read anything about conquest mode and conquest builds? 

[Gerrand.3085]

Yes. On how to play my class and what other classes were supposed to be good at. Though I'm guessing thats a vote towards me just getting worse at the game 😛

[Spellhunter.9675]

Yes because:

- you are getting older, you reaction times, ability to learn and free time for gaming became lower;

- there is a natural progress of skill throughout playerbase in mmorpgs with somewhat long life. Things that was "top level tricks" became standart even at low rating after some time;

- there is factor in a form of new elitespecs and their skills added to the game. So there are more things to keep in mind.

 

No because:

- less players lead to less competitiveness;

- devs tends to make the game more casual friendly (but I might be wrong with it, just my opinion).

 

 

[tunococman.7324]

Teams aren't really forming anymore and solo que games are just RNG

 

I dont know if you can call that "harder"

 

I feel like it can still be easy/hard depending on whether you're gonna play broken specs or not

 

But still obnoxious like always.

 

Tho I will say there wasn't 1000000 defensive cds that you needed to count in pre-HoT 2015 compared to now tbh..

[UNOwen.7132]

Up to late 2019, yes. The 2020 megapatch then drastically lowered skill floor and skill caps, and since then its pretty much stayed that low since.

[Xyrony Shush.8457]

Because of bad matchmaking and low population it is more frustrating to play ranked and you have to carry much harder since your teammates will most likely suck more and more with decreasing competition and playerbase but the gamemode didn't become harder over time.

 

Conquest didn't change by itself but since Anet is following a "high skill ceiling/ high skill cap builds will become obsolete at some point" game-simplifiaction-philosophy most classes become easier and easier to play, while the power creep of mobility on all classes and the too high mistake friendly sustain in the game also makes outrotating opponents less possible/ less rewarding. Means you don't really play high skill demanding rotation based comps and go more for bunker and teamfight orientated comps, low risk, low skilldemand but high reward is the key in gw2 metas since years. Means indirectly conquest became easier with the bad dumb down class balance clueless devs at Anet celebrate.

 

In particular EoD was the worst expansion for PvP. Most specs delete a lot of skill demand from classes (just as mobility got out of hand, except, and that is funny as fitting: Mesmers mobility, Mesmer obviously is supposed to be bad since its a too high skill cap class).

 

See for example the best examples Warrior, Engi, Mesmer, Rev EoD specs are mechanically very simplified and easy to play. Few exeptions are untamed or specter, which are mechanically higher demanding than previous specs of that class but ofc overbuffed atm.

 

And the trade off garbage also lowers skill ceiling/ skill cap from affected Hot and PoV specs and should be deleted in the same step NCSoft/Anet finally hires Devs with clue about balance.

Edited August 10, 2022 by ano nimo.3948

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Core game was the hardest and where skill mattered the most except 2-3 braindead builds like hambow, d/d ele. From there onwards it became more and more braindead as time goes on. In current state of game you dont even have to watch screen. Game is easier with rolling face on keyboard and autoaim option

[Xyrony Shush.8457]

31 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Core game was the hardest and where skill mattered the most except 2-3 braindead builds like hambow, d/d ele. From there onwards it became more and more braindead as time goes on. In current state of game you dont even have to watch screen. Game is easier with rolling face on keyboard and autoaim option

Actually a lot of HoT or PoV specs are (or better "were" before trade off garbage) mechanically way more complex and increased the skill ceiling/ skill cap over core mechanics remarkable. Reaper for Necro, Druid/ Soulbeast for Ranger, Chrono/ Mirage for Mesmer, FB/ DH for Guard, Holo for Engi are just some examples.

 

Some HoT or PoF specs ofc did the opposite: Scrapper, Deadeye, Scourge for example.

 

The most dumb down in the game imo comes from the trade off garbage, most of EoD incl the mobility power creep, the way too high sustain and dmg (sustain is way way too high since dmg is only a little bit too high still) leading to mistake friendly bunkers but also non reactive low cd dmg spam and oneshot memes.

Edited August 10, 2022 by ano nimo.3948

[Scoobaniec.9561]

2 minutes ago, ano nimo.3948 said:

Actually a lot of HoT or PoV specs are (or better "were" before trade off garbage) mechanically way more complex and increased the skill ceiling/ skill cap over core mechanics remarkable. Reaper for Necro, Druid/ Soulbeast for Ranger, Chrono/ Mirage for Mesmer, FB/ DH for Guard, Holo for Engi are just some examples.

 

Some HoT or PoF specs ofc did the opposite: Scrapper, Deadeye, Scourge for example.

Lol at which part? HoT introduced braindead spam. I guess many forgot the unkillable braindead bunker chrono from s1. Druid was kitten to fight against as well and some parts of it still remain like that low cd "entangle" trait on cc. Scrapper was another hurr durr nearly unkillable with ridiculous damage output. For the first time ever thief was erased off meta and who captured circles first in general has won the game cuz nobody was dying. You can check it being true even in "pro" games from that time

[Xyrony Shush.8457]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:30 PM, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Lol at which part? HoT introduced braindead spam. I guess many forgot the unkillable braindead bunker chrono from s1. Druid was kitten to fight against as well and some parts of it still remain like that low cd "entangle" trait on cc. Scrapper was another hurr durr nearly unkillable with ridiculous damage output. For the first time ever thief was erased off meta and who captured circles first in general has won the game cuz nobody was dying. You can check it being true even in "pro" games from that time

I was talking about the mechanics of the specs and their basic design. For example Bunker Chrono wasn't mainly a problem because of Chrono but more the problem of inspiration and chaos traitline. A problem that still exists btw and also makes virtuoso more unfun to play against than the blockspam is already by itself. Same as the problem with grenade Holo at its broken times were not the Holo mechanics but the nades, the addition of bad mechanics into explosive traitline and some other number balance issues but not the basic holo spec mechanics themself.

Scrapper? Yes i named Scrapper as an example of Hot/Pof specs where the problems already start with the spec design itself-

Edited August 12, 2022 by ano nimo.3948

[Scoobaniec.9561]

3 minutes ago, ano nimo.3948 said:

I was talking about the mechanics of the specs and their basic design. For example Bunker chrono wasn't mainly a problem because of Chrono but more the problem of inspiration and chaos. A problem that still exists btw. Same as the problem with grenade Holo at its broken times were not the Holo mechanics but the nades and some other number balance issues but not the basic spec mechanics themself.

Scrapper? Yes i named Scrapper as an example of Hot/Pof specs where the problems already start with the spec design itself-

All things considered it doesnt really matter. Devs balance at pve level and they fail even there to do so. They would have to make basically new classes targeted specifically at pvp or a complete new game in fact focused on pvp instead. PvP in mmos just doesnt work unless they were targeted specifically with that purpose and pve acts more of a side role - like albion online (which im not fan of anyway). 

[Xyrony Shush.8457]

3 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

All things considered it doesnt really matter. Devs balance at pve level and they fail even there to do so. They would have to make basically new classes targeted specifically at pvp or a complete new game in fact focused on pvp instead. PvP in mmos just doesnt work unless they were targeted specifically with that purpose and pve acts more of a side role - like albion online (which im not fan of anyway). 

It does matter to see where the problems really come from, otherwise you nerf or rework the wrong things and make stuff even worse (aka trade off garbage as best example). But i agree that it doesn't matter what we write here since Anet is doing only PvE focused balance and even that bad and with the wrong simplification philosophy.

 

It would make more sense to put mechanics into PvP focus and only make compensations with number changes in PvE instead, since PvE is way easier to compensate with only numbers.

Edited August 10, 2022 by ano nimo.3948

[Scoobaniec.9561]

2 minutes ago, ano nimo.3948 said:

It does matter to see where the problems really come from, otherwise you nerf or rework the wrong things and make stuff even worse (aka trade off garbage as best example). But i agree that it doesn't matter what we write here since Anet is doing only PvE focused balance and even that bad and with the wrong simplification philosophy.

Like i said the problem comes with design itself which aims at pve. All skills they design are mechanically made with pve in mind and this create many issues with pvp. To fix it devs would need to switch and design around pvp instead and then fine tune numbers for pve bc it doesnt really matter how the skill works as long it pump out needed dps. Its really hard to make something work in both modes at once without it creating issues which i learned the hard way as rookie dev.

I believe devs made choice and focused on pve players where majority of money comes from. And its time remaining pvp players do the same and either accept pvp being a mess forever, relax a bit and just enjoy the combat regardless of it balancing problems or move on to pvp focused game. Theres no point in being frustrated over a game

[Swagg.9236]

PvP, if anything, is simpler due to increased homogenization across all class options.  The combat tempo will constantly change due to violent and arbitrary metagame swings brought on by patches, and that can throw anyone off regardless of age or experience.  The fact that so much of what drives GW2 PvP interactions derives from passive triggers (traits, gear) or vague, text-based explanations only exacerbates these shifts.  Ultimately, GW2 is too esoteric to be competitive.  You aren't necessarily worse; GW2 is aggressively inconsistent.

[Downstate.4697]

Pvp is faster now than in vanilla because more professions have access to mobility.

It is also more cluttered with boons and conditions.

You dont have ultra tanks slowing the pace of the game which requires more map awareness and rotations.

Damage is honestly about the same, but the clutter and mobility makes it harder to deal with.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

10 hours ago, Gerrand.3085 said:

Yes. On how to play my class and what other classes were supposed to be good at. Though I'm guessing thats a vote towards me just getting worse at the game 😛

Nah

When population gets low, the rating margins shrink down. So 5 or 6 years ago the average streamline bell curve existed between about 1650 down to 1200 with 1400-1450 being where most players resided. But now due to low population which shrinks margins and makes it impossible to avoid match manipulations for everyone, the average bell curve is now looking more like 1500 to 1000 where most people reside around 1200-1300.

TLDR: The same thing is happening to everyone for the aforementioned reasons ^ If you haven't found a group of people to manipulate with and/or don't play a hard queue dodge game, old p2+ are now playing most often around bottom plat and people who once were gold 2ish to gold 3ish, are drifting down into top silver gold 1ish.

You're not getting worse, the system is just botched in 2022. Too much match manipulation and glicko as a system falls apart with too low of a population.

[JTGuevara.9018]

11 hours ago, Gerrand.3085 said:

*A crotchety old man limps up to the bar*

 

A question for all you young whippersnappers: Has it become harder to compete in SPvP over the seasons? I've been playing GW2 since the Karka queen event and I've gone from (at my prime) Upper gold rank to (in PoF) lower gold rank and finally (EOD) to getting summarily crushed in conquest. Seriously, I'm dragging myself through pvp as a way to get legendary medium armor and I'm consistently losing 3 out of 4 matches - and given the exchanges in those matches, I'm just being carried in 1 of 4 rounds.

 

The most obvious answer to my plight (and the pugs matched with me) is I've just gotten too old to compete... at the ancient age of 30.

 

That aside though, it feels like not only are the new elite specs more powerful but they have a much higher skill cap then the builds of old - even for players at bottom silver. I used to stick to fairly simple builds like necro/reaper, guardian/dragonhunter and occasionally revenant/smork but it seems one now has to consistently pull off much more complicated combos to even dent the hp of other players. Not sure if its just a load of bots, if all the worse players fled in prior seasons or if I've just gotten really bad at computer games. 

 

I was personally hoping I'd drop to copper where I seem to belong but I keep winning half of my kitten ranking matches and getting placed mid-silver over and over again -.-

 

So back to the question: Is playing PvP more complex at all levels then it used to be - or do I just need to be wheeled off to a retirement home?

 

 

Yes, pvp has gotten harder. And no, you're fine. See...because of the lack of population, there's a lack of variety of skill levels and you just end up fighting the same people. Also, contrary to popular belief, it's not you that's gotten worse...it's the game that's gotten worse. Thanks to new shiny elite specs and powercreep, game balance has gone down the drain and into the abyss.

 

9 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Like i said the problem comes with design itself which aims at pve. All skills they design are mechanically made with pve in mind and this create many issues with pvp. To fix it devs would need to switch and design around pvp instead and then fine tune numbers for pve bc it doesnt really matter how the skill works as long it pump out needed dps. Its really hard to make something work in both modes at once without it creating issues which i learned the hard way as rookie dev.

I believe devs made choice and focused on pve players where majority of money comes from. And its time remaining pvp players do the same and either accept pvp being a mess forever, relax a bit and just enjoy the combat regardless of it balancing problems or move on to pvp focused game. Theres no point in being frustrated over a game

I used to think it was a "pve" thing, but I don't think it's the case. gw2 has no consistent combat design whatsoever. It just has a nice action-y combat engine, that's it. pve just happens to bring in more money and be the path of least resistance. Also, I would say: yes, accept pvp's inevitable crash and burn, but don't relax...just don't play. This situation isn't "fun" for anybody except those that run the latest FOTM build. It's not even remotely fair, competitive or fun.

43 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nah

When population gets low, the rating margins shrink down. So 5 or 6 years ago the average streamline bell curve existed between about 1650 down to 1200 with 1400-1450 being where most players resided. But now due to low population which shrinks margins and makes it impossible to avoid match manipulations for everyone, the average bell curve is now looking more like 1500 to 1000 where most people reside around 1200-1300.

TLDR: The same thing is happening to everyone for the aforementioned reasons ^ If you haven't found a group of people to manipulate with and/or don't play a hard queue dodge game, old p2+ are now playing most often around bottom plat and people who once were gold 2ish to gold 3ish, are drifting down into top silver gold 1ish.

You're not getting worse, the system is just botched in 2022. Too much match manipulation and glicko as a system falls apart with too low of a population.

Hah! I love it! So gold is the new platinum?! Pffftt...bwahahahahahaaa!!...I can't WAIT for a year from now where silver is the "top end" and everybody else is stuck in bronze. Not that divisions or rating matter anyway in this joke of a system.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Hah! I love it! So gold is the new platinum?! Pffftt...bwahahahahahaaa!!...I can't WAIT for a year from now where silver is the "top end" and everybody else is stuck in bronze. Not that divisions or rating matter anyway in this joke of a system.

Pretty much.

The same win traders do the same thing with the same mains & alts each season.

When you have top 25 being hard 100% win trade and top 75 being partial win trades to maintain or special "allowances" by the win trade cliques, they leave no room for legitimate players to breach these margins and no one who is legitimate can win in these games against them to actually maintain a solid rating past the gate. I mean you can get lucky one day of the week and nearly touch p2, but then the rest of the week you're gonna get throw games to ride you right back down.

In a population where those top 100 accounts "mains & alts" are playing with 1000 players at any given time, plenty of games still occur that are clean and plenty of people still ride margins upwards for realistic plat1-plat2 margins to exist.

However, in a population where those top 100 win trade accounts are playing with only about 100 other active players at any given point in time, there is no way to avoid them and you can't win games against win traders as a legit. Then we have those realistic plat1-plat2 margins get artificially rode down to like g2-g3-bottom plat1.

I mean it's at point where these win trade cliques are queueing most of the day every day, whether it's on mains with alts supporting them or sometimes just a big phase where they are mass queueing alts. There are probably realistically about 10 to 20 of them queueing in NA at any given point in time, and then there are probably about 10 to 20 other actual players attempting to queue at that same time. Maybe at prime time those numbers increase from 10 to 20 win trade throws out there seeking to seed into games vs. MAYBE 30 to 40 active legit players queueing, and even then it's just highly unlikely to avoid them in queues if you are in even bottom g3 due to how low population is and how the match maker starts reaching down to pull anyone in that it can.

When manipulations get this out of hand, it's like the Glicko system is designed to implode itself and destroy its own player base, by reaching further and further down to grab newer and newer players the more player base it loses, rather than draw a hard line at some point and say: "Nope. If you're legend division you simply don't get to play against Gold 3 or lower. Sorry. Maybe you should stop queue dodging the other cheaters and other good players if you want to play."

Edited August 11, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

18 hours ago, Gerrand.3085 said:

*A crotchety old man limps up to the bar*

 

A question for all you young whippersnappers: Has it become harder to compete in SPvP over the seasons? I've been playing GW2 since the Karka queen event and I've gone from (at my prime) Upper gold rank to (in PoF) lower gold rank and finally (EOD) to getting summarily crushed in conquest. Seriously, I'm dragging myself through pvp as a way to get legendary medium armor and I'm consistently losing 3 out of 4 matches - and given the exchanges in those matches, I'm just being carried in 1 of 4 rounds.

 

The most obvious answer to my plight (and the pugs matched with me) is I've just gotten too old to compete... at the ancient age of 30.

 

That aside though, it feels like not only are the new elite specs more powerful but they have a much higher skill cap then the builds of old - even for players at bottom silver. I used to stick to fairly simple builds like necro/reaper, guardian/dragonhunter and occasionally revenant/smork but it seems one now has to consistently pull off much more complicated combos to even dent the hp of other players. Not sure if its just a load of bots, if all the worse players fled in prior seasons or if I've just gotten really bad at computer games. 

 

I was personally hoping I'd drop to copper where I seem to belong but I keep winning half of my kitten ranking matches and getting placed mid-silver over and over again -.-

 

So back to the question: Is playing PvP more complex at all levels then it used to be - or do I just need to be wheeled off to a retirement home?

 

 

i am 29 and nope.. we are not too old. We can still slap these yung buckeroos left and right, dont worry.

There is people playing with 150ms+ping that is the equivalent of being 90 and they can still manage their way to plat xD. 

"i am getting old" is a excuse at best. The ammount of ms being added to your reaction time from 15 to 30... is like nonexsitent. Dont let this young buckeroos fool you. Most of the pro scene is around 30 years of age. You are not at a disadvantage tbh.

 

Have you brought your build into the year of 2022? things that worked back then will succ right now.

if you like i can supply you with some builds.

 

I am pretty sure your "problems" originate from 2 things. 

a) your build. Some build will completly braindead carry you... choose one of those to get in the habit again.

b) knowledge. How can you make the right decisions if you are not familiar with nowadays builds? YOU CANT. you can just play how you used to play and pray that it works....

JUST KEEP ON GAMING. pick a braindead build like Garbinger or riflemechanist to start out and just KEEP ON GAMING. you will get there  after 2 weeks. You need to regain this feeling of fighting the other builds. When to dodge, when to attack.... you just have to find the rhythm again.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Pimsley.3681]

There's a thread on the main discussion section about gw2 and aging. Someone said over 40 is considered old. I beg to differ. To answer the main question, I feel that pvp is easier now due to cheesy builds. Also, I prefer the point system before the xpacs where one could invest in more than 3 traitlines. On the other hand, it's harder to climb now due to fewer players.

[eyelogix.1654]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:11 PM, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Yes because:

- you are getting older, you reaction times, ability to learn and free time for gaming became lower;

- there is a natural progress of skill throughout playerbase in mmorpgs with somewhat long life. Things that was "top level tricks" became standart even at low rating after some time;

- there is factor in a form of new elitespecs and their skills added to the game. So there are more things to keep in mind.

 

No because:

- less players lead to less competitiveness;

- devs tends to make the game more casual friendly (but I might be wrong with it, just my opinion).

 

 

no the matchmaking system is garbage due to the low pvp population. You don't always play silver against silver as an example.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I'm 40 and am sitting between silver/gold consistently.

Yes, pvp has gotten harder. And reaction times have little to do with it. Here's a little list of it's current woes:

- lower player population = more unfair matchups

- LoL kids that grieve, leave, trash talk whole game standing in base. Except in LoL this is actually punished...

- too many especs doing too many things - hard to balance teamcomp out because you've no idea who does what save very few obvious cases (like reapers).

- recent balance changes throwing builds for a loop. We all know the abomination that is rifle mech. My terrormancer is getting destroyed cause of shroud sustain nerfs, while chrono flourishes due to offhand shield giving quickness with proper grandmaster.

- matchmaking has become more LoL -like and it sucks. Huge loss streaks followed by huge win streaks. During former i stopped to take a look at what my team is doing. Some things cannot be unseen...

So yeah, there's a lot more adjusting to be done to adapt to new reality, as well as patience for psycho ward patients playing right now...

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

3 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

So yeah, there's a lot more adjusting to be done to adapt to new reality, as well as patience for psycho ward patients playing right now...

Honestly couldn't think of a more accurate way to describe today's sPvP generation, well done 👏

 

Edit: Actually, in retrospect, college fraternity might fit the bill as well.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Multicolorhipster.9751

[Eddbopkins.2630]

to me it has gotten spammer and less skillful, specially with all the projectiles EoD brought about.