When will Mech Wars 2 return to being Guild Wars 2?

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

 

Anet: When will Mech Wars 2 return to being Guild Wars 2? Or should we just start referring to it as Imba Wars 2?

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

Sure, I could create a Mechanist, but that's neither a balance solution nor does it reduce the imbalance in the player landscape. 

The Aug 23 patch certainly did far too little to address this.

Besides, this green fungus infesting the visual landscape needs some serious mold control.

======

EDIT: I posted this in the General Discussion forum and now it has been moved to Professions/Engineer forum??? kitten? This is an issue that affects balance between all professions, and the health of the game overall. 

======

Edited August 29, 2022 by TheAgedGnome.7520
WTH did Anet move my post from General Discussion??

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Firebrand and Scourge dominated Strike Missions, Fractals and Raids for an extended time-period. Mechanist's dominance is extreme, but not for a very long time. 

[Tails.9372]

20 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

When will Mech Wars 2 return to being Guild Wars 2?

Ideally once they gave other sets across the board a similar treatment. Just holding up the popularity sheet from wingman doesn't really do anything as it doesn't really tell you which build is played for what reason.

 

20 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

The Aug 23 patch certainly did far too little to address this.

Ofc. not, the patch never aimed to rework anything specific. They did however state:

Quote

In the immediate future, we want to make sure more builds can be used successfully. In future updates, we'll expand this further by shoring up more support and healing build options.

So more buffs are incoming.

 

24 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

Besides, this green fungus infesting the visual landscape needs some serious mold control.

Indeed, why we don't have an option to hide allied minions / pets (preferably "on" by default) is beyond me. The visual clutter has been a point of criticism since the beta.

[Omega.6801]

32 minutes ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

 

Anet: When will Mech Wars 2 return to being Guild Wars 2? Or should we just start referring to it as Imba Wars 2?

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

Sure, I could create a Mechanist, but that's neither a balance solution nor does it reduce the imbalance in the player landscape. 

The Aug 23 patch certainly did far too little to address this.

Besides, this green fungus infesting the visual landscape needs some serious mold control.

 

What's wrong with having 14 robots n you raid squad? It's like a Michael Bay movie...

On a more serious note. Yes this needs to be fixed. On the other hand, just because it's very popular to play doesn't mean everything else is suddenly useless...unless you were a warrior mainand only, then that's sad.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Considering all the threads about using ‘henchman’ I figured people would love the mechanist.  
😀

[Gibson.4036]

I guess we die or we bow down to our new golem overlords.

[Mik.3401]

They stated cleary they do not want to develop high effort meta builds anymore. Double staff mirage was just a taste what was to come with EoD era and afterwards. So you need to Change your mindset that it is not about being good anymore, just about unlocking the appropriate build and rolling it by pushing all buttons.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

They stated cleary they do not want to develop high effort meta builds anymore. Double staff mirage was just a taste what was to come with EoD era and afterwards. So you need to Change your mindset that it is not about being good anymore, just about unlocking the appropriate build and rolling it by pushing all buttons.

 

That's the issue: on mechanist you don't have to push any buttons (and that's not meant as hyperbole, there are literally bosses, even raid and strike bosses where you need 0 inputs on a full mechanist squad to succeed). If it was just face-roll and win then there'd be at least some interaction with the game. Which is exactly reflected in the metrics: the least effort class with maximized performance for the effort invested beats out all competition.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Tails.9372]

19 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

They stated cleary they do not want to develop high effort meta builds anymore.

Which, for the time being, is a good thing btw., if their goal is to get more people into content like strikes / raids without touching the content itself then focusing on adding more builds "your average joe" can pick up and do well with is the way to go. Also, the more complex builds are still there and competitive for those who want to play something more demanding.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

That's the issue: on mechanist you don't have to push any buttons (and that's not meant as hyperbole, there are literally bosses, even raid and strike bosses where you need 0 inputs on a full mechanist squad to succeed). If it was just face-roll and win then there'd be at least some interaction with the game. Which is exactly reflected in the metrics: the least effort class with maximized performance for the effort invested beats out all competition.

And i agree that they went a bit too far here. Personally, i have no probelm with them balancing the professions around high effectiveness easy to use builds from now on, but i'd still prefer they used something like Virtuoso rather than Mech as a baseline.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

Which, for the time being, is a good thing btw., if their goal is to get more people into content like strikes / raids without touching the content itself then focusing on adding more builds "your average joe" can pick up and do well with is the way to go. Also, the more complex builds are still there and competitive for those who want to play something more demanding.

 

No it's not, at least not to this extent. Unless your argument is literally: it's good to remove all game play, improvement and build craft from the game. That might be true yes, which would spell a very sad state for the state of this games player base, or the mechanist thing is just a fad, hopefully about to pass (and LI builds where already more than fine in the past).

 

IF 0 interaction is required for success at this games challenging content, then there is literally 0 progression or player development necessary, which most certainly WILL lead to players quitting (but as said, maybe less than rejoin).

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And i agree that they went a bit too far here. Personally, i have no probelm with them balancing the professions around high effectiveness easy to use builds from now on, but i'd still prefer they used something like Virtuoso rather than Mech as a baseline.

and while I think Virt is also busted, it at least has some semblance of interaction.

I don't hate mech, on the contrary, I play it a lot actually given it's just so far beyond everything else and it;s brain dead simply use.I personally just know I enjoyed nearly every single other power dps or support I played in the past more, where I had to at least understand my class and its mechanic.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Tails.9372]

38 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

it's good to remove all game play, improvement and build craft from the game

That's just objectly false even in context of rifle mech, there is a big difference in performance between someone who just stands there and only goes "11111", dodges / goes in downstate whenever an actual attack comes in and someone who playes the build correctly. Also, highly effective "one button spam builds" have always been a common occurrence in ARPGs and have never shown to be a distractor for "improvement and build craft".

38 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

IF 0 interaction is required for success at this games challenging content

Then this says more about "this games challenging content" than anything else. Other games (even those who are already more than 20 years old) have shown a multitude of ways to keep up the difficulty even with builds similar to "rifle mech" around and it's not like this GW2 doesn't already have some fitting mechanics in the game. They just rarely ever make use of them.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Cyninja.2954]

35 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

That's just objectly false even in context of rifle mech, there is a big difference in performance between a someone who just stands there and only goes "11111", dodges / goes in downstate whenever an actual attack comes in and someone who playes the build correctly. Also, highly effective "one button spam builds" have always been common occurrence in ARPGs and have never shown to be a distractor for "improvement and build craft".

It's not objectively false. I didn't claim that there is no difference between auto 1 and the actual rotation. I claimed that auto 1 is more than sufficient to clear content which should not be clear-able with 0 interaction.

Highly effective 1 button builds still required 1-3 buttons, aka the famous LI builds, to be used. NOTHING was complete auto 1 and afk while afk mech even pushes top tier numbers when compared to other LI builds.

Mech is not a LI build. It's a NO INTENSITY build, which is the issue. This severe disparity to ANY other class in game (not in pure performance buy actual required interaction) is what shows up in the dominance of mech in raids and squads right now, unlike FB and scourge, which are overpowered in other ways.

Quote

Then this says more about "this games challenging content" than anything else. Other games (even those who are already more than 20 years old) have shown a multitude of ways to keep up the difficulty even with builds similar to "rifle mech" around and it's not like this GW2 doesn't already have some fitting mechanics in the game. They just rarely ever make use of them.

No they haven't. Yes, rotations might be less complex and the overall combat design might be more simplistic and less actions per minute heavy, but the claim that similar builds in other games clear the top end content there is a strait up blatant lie. Other games could be compared to this games LI builds in complexity, and those are more than fine for 99.9% of this games content too.

There is not a single game where you can afk through high end content the way it can be done on mech here.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Kuma.1503]

I will keep saying this. 

Mech cannot AFK through encounters. The only time this is possible is when the fight is a glorified target golem. And these fights aren't exactly so difficult that you NEED to play mech in order to beat them. Some of them (Like Shiverpeak strike mission) are so easy you can clear them without trinkets. 

As for the fights with actual mechanics, the AFK issue does not stem from mech, as they will still need to do mechanics or risk a wipe. 

The real culprit is and has always been Firebrand. 

The raw amount of aegis and stab it has allows its entire subgroup to literally ignore mechanics. 

 

Having trouble jumping over the shockwaves in HT? Have your FB aegis or stab you through it

Devourers pulling you into AoE's on HT? Have FB stab you through it. 

Annoying factal boss constantly dazing you on the 3rd swing and making your tempest's life hell because they can't get off an overload (why Anet?) Have your FB stab or aegis you through it

Tentacles constantly pulling you into your death on Junkyard CM? Have your FB stab/aegis you through it. 

Group struggling to dodge Minister LI's swipe attack during the spread mechanic? Have FB Aegis you through it. 

Mobs constantly interrupting your rotation? You get the point by now. 

 

 

Power Mech has to do mechanics, which prevents the player from being able to AFK. 

Firebrand allows 4 other players to ignore mechanics and turns fights that wouldn't be glorified target golems into glorified target golems. Delete Pmech from the game tomorrow, and the game would still easy preicely because FB makes the game easy. 

We'd just replace the Mechs with Virtuoso, Specter, and Scourge. Even if DPS drops slightly because these builds take a modicum of addditional effort, the bonus utility you'd get from barriers, revives (both specter and scourge can do this), cleanses, and heals on top of FB utility would make fights trivial. 

None of these builds are heavily punished by mechanics since they are all mostly ranged. 

Each of the builds I listed would be far less strong if FB didn't role compress so well. Specter + Heal Scrapper or Specter + Heal Cata is no where near as broken as Specter + HFB. So it isn't even necessarily a case of  "These other builds are giga broken too". Although they are certainly strong. 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Bomboed.5697]

Engi was the least popular class for almost a decade. Now it is their time to shine.
Some other classes and specs were more kittenous for longer periods of time. Some of them are still kittenous.

[Tails.9372]

59 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

the claim that similar builds in other games clear the top end content there is a strait up blatant lie

Well then, try to google "monkey berserker streaming sitting between 3 bosses afk drinking coffee" and tell me if you can find anything (or if you really want to see something braindead in praxis serch for "輝光を砕く母なる神UH HrTMG通常メイン" on YT) and don't worry, I have no shortage of further examples from other games. These things aren't nearly as "non-existent" as you seem to believe.

[Dadnir.5038]

Odds are high that after "mech wars 2" it won't be "guild wars 2".

It will most likely be "[whatever e-spec people think is too strong] wars 2". Place your bets, it will be either harbinger, bladesworn, specter or untamed. And people will say: "It's brain dead!" "It's too easy to play for how rewarding it is!"... etc. This forum always follow the same patern anyway.

 

[Kulvar.1239]

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Engi was the least popular class for almost a decade. Now it is their time to shine.
Some other classes and specs were more kittenous for longer periods of time. Some of them are still kittenous.

Your definition of shine is outcompete other classes so much they disappear ?

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Well then, try to google "monkey berserker streaming sitting between 3 bosses afk drinking coffee" and tell me if you can find anything (or if you really want to see something braindead in praxis serch for "輝光を砕く母なる神UH HrTMG通常メイン" on YT) and don't worry, I have no shortage of further examples from other games. These things aren't nearly as "non-existent" as you seem to believe.

You know what, i would check up on those, but here is my guess: it's from some mediocre "what's it game" where even IF some class could do this, the class disparity is not affected the same way as here (and if it is, I'd doubt even more that the game in question is in any way a good shape).

Meanwhile, what for? You and I have very different understandings and desires in regard to class balance when it comes to this game. Your position is pretty much: just let me have rewards at minimum effort, mine is the exact opposite. You believe that minimum to no effort is the way to go class design wise, I disagree. So I doubt we would agree on any approach. The only question thus becomes, and we will eventually see how they balance this: do the developers feel the same way in certain classes being vastly over-represented and what effect will this have on the future of the games population and content? Neither of which we have any influence on.

So if you are happy with 80% mech dominance and believe that is in the best interest of the game: more power to you.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Firebrand and Scourge dominated Strike Missions, Fractals and Raids for an extended time-period. Mechanist's dominance is extreme, but not for a very long time. 

Very true, almost no one complained when that was the case. I do agree though on class being dominating is a bad thing. 

I mean the other day I pugged a dungeon with a mechanist, he did 10k more than my Soulbeast Ranger burst, in a dungeon 😑

[Gibson.4036]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Odds are high that after "mech wars 2" it won't be "guild wars 2".

It will most likely be "[whatever e-spec people think is too strong] wars 2". Place your bets, it will be either harbinger, bladesworn, specter or untamed. And people will say: "It's brain dead!" "It's too easy to play for how rewarding it is!"... etc. This forum always follow the same patern anyway.

 

Already happening with Specter.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

In order to make it in that statistic you need to know this program exists. Download it, install it and run it. After looking at the statistics again, I've noticed the following:
- the number of the data-sets increased over time. That may add to accuracy, but makes them not really comparable.
- the number of data-sets fluctuates a lot.
- Mechanist popularity increased while the number of data-sets massively decreased. 

You can give me a million confused reactions if you want. This data is not reliable and should not be used to show the overall class distribution. It only shows how many people are using wingman and what they have played while using it.

Edited August 30, 2022 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Firebrand and Scourge dominated Strike Missions, Fractals and Raids for an extended time-period. Mechanist's dominance is extreme, but not for a very long time. 

So, all we have to do is wait a few years for it to hit the dev radar?  Well, that's reassuring.

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Very true, almost no one complained when that was the case. I do agree though on class being dominating is a bad thing. 

I mean the other day I pugged a dungeon with a mechanist, he did 10k more than my Soulbeast Ranger burst, in a dungeon 😑

LoL What?  Complaints about firebrand, renegade, and scourge were constant.