October 4 Balance Update Preview

[MagnustheDemon.5174]

Why is scrapper getting destroyed this hard? I mean, i dont WvW or PvP. I'm strictly PvE cause its fun to me. The ability right now, to have my scrapper skills, the gyros, follow me has been a blessing. I cant react fast enough nor do i have enough hand eye coordination to place aoes and move out of danger at the same time. I struggle to play the game past the base game simply because it requires a lot out of me. Scrapper, a class i picked up recently has been very helpful. From the ability to use my skills and have em follow me, to the ability of generating a barrier to keep me alive. Now, both of these things have been taken away. It may seem like i'm whining about my crutch, and i am. Scrapper is a class that helps me enjoy this game because of my physical limitations. Should i be playing single player games rather than an mmo? Sure...I suppose i could but thats neither here nor there. When you make changes consider the entirety of your player base, not just the majority please.

 

Also i know there are shortcuts and key binds to help with placing aoes...but what happens when i'm locked onto a target and i need to heal? Im going to heal the enemy. What about my barrier gryo? They cant use it.

Edited September 17, 2022 by MagnustheDemon.5174
More info

[Bazsi.2734]

So I like most of the balance changes here, and delivering on the 300 second CD trait reworks is 2 years late, but it's better late than never. On tradeoffs though: properly getting rid of all of them is... just barely acceptable. Elite specs not being core+ never really worked, but hey at least we're done pretending.

That said, there is something I want to call out here: removal of unique buffs necessitated that you make every class balanced, because without anything unique to offer, they will not have a place in any meta if they are noticeably weaker. And so far you seem like you'll want to achieve this by STANDARDIZING everything. You are reducing the class selection screen to "pick your favorite color".

For example: guardian having way better access to stability is what sets it apart from other supports. Ventari herald at one point used to have the best raw healing(maybe it still does), tempest was the best 10 man general support, druid was a good mix of healing+offensive support etc... these things used to (and mostly still are) different. By granting them equal access to stability, you are making them more alike. You guys are running a themepark MMO. Keep things different or your game dies.

 

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

15 hours ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

TLDR: Reaper spec is permanently removed from pvp and wvw. This spec will no longer be mentioned in any balance patches in future.

Never will understand this absolute hatred devs have for Reaper, it's infuriating to see this elite spec fade into oblivion. Like i said before ill give them until November to get this fixed then I'm done completely with GW2 and most certainly will not purchase the next ex-pack.

[Avatara.1042]

 

Anet: Did someone say SCRAPALYST?

 

Hey, might as well spread the well hate around, instead of finding a proper way to nerf the Scrapper in WvW.

[Esper.3721]

First of all, a lot of the patch makes sense and is likely a positive thing. Two things however are absolutely horrible:

 

Specter's shroud nerf in PvE makes no sense. I'm not even sure if it affects optimal DPS rotations a lot but what's the point of nerfing an underplayed playstyle even more? Just make the change sPvP only, why should PvE/WvW players be nerfed because of imbalanced sPvP..

 

I'm an engi main since the second beta weekend before release of the game. I hated scrapper when it came out but the changes in the last years (e.g. adding the quickness-support option) made me finally play and enjoy it.

I agree with all of the WvW changes to cooldowns and traits but the mechanics change to gyros is honestly not fun. In fractals and dungeons I use gyros to buff my group while running around. This is no longer possible. Now it's just like any other well-user in the game. You're removing a unique playstyle and class identity from PvE just because you don't like it in WvW.

 

I fully agree that power mech is too strong and easy to play. The nerfs are good. But why aren't you trying to make Holosmith the high-risk/high-skill/high-damage spec? No buffs in PvE means that other specs do the same bench-dps as Holo with 1/4 of the risk and buttons to press. That means in real encounters most Holosmiths will still do less than Mech/Scrapper unless they play perfectly and have a good party to support them. I'd love to play Holo but right now it's entirely pointless compared to the other options.

 

Since you're probably not going to move away from those gyro changes, please at least also change Sneak Gyro to apply all stealth at the beginning (like the mesmer elite), so we can still use it while running in fractals and dungeons.

 

Again, most of the patch is good, I just hope you reconsider those two points or at least make amends to Sneak Gyro and Holosmith in PvE.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Esper.3721

[JadenSimic.3941]

When will Reaper see some love please?
In PvE its the worst DPS spec you can play, comparable with supports at best.

[Ferix.1528]

Perhaps a suggestion for the scrapper wells, maybe make one of the traits change the wells into the ground target rather than making it baseline. There you give power to the players, people can decide for themselves if they like the current way the skills work or if they would rather use the ground target version.

[Wisty.4135]

Hey, so real quick on this, and it's three pretty major things from an organized content standpoint:

1: Elementalist Changes to Gale Song and Arcane shielding: I know you guys hate passives. Passives are bad if there's no alternative to taking them because they're so good. However, these passives and their current functionalities work exactly how I would want such defensive passives to work. Arcane shielding - give me three blocks to correct my mistakes if I end up eating massive damage, and Gale Song - give me a quick way to reposition if I end up eating an attack that CC's me. This is exactly what I would want as a player who takes these traits over the higher damage/more utility alternatives that are available.

The current proposed iterations would destroy their usefulness - 3 blocks on use of an elite? How useless is that going to be in rotation of literally any spec? Rebound fights with it for identity (save from death by ignoring damage and healing), and Weave Self / Elemental Celeryseed are both used quite strictly in rotations where the passive, if taken, would be quite useless for anything but chip damage. Same goes for Eye of the Storm, where, as tempest I generate so much passive protection, even without earth traited that the additional prot on heal skill is insulting. Most times you take earth anyways, making prot not even an issue. These changes do not increase viability of the traits, but rather make them unappealing and redundant choices in most regards.

 

2. Scrapper gyros:  Ok, gyros as they are currently are a bit strong. but reverting the functionality back to ground targeted wells in content modes that all but demand constant movement destroys their viability. Imagine you're fighting zerg v zerg in SMC lord room, spinning in circles. You drop bulwark  on group to shield them from damage (bad move, but I'll allow it). your group moves out of bulwark  and everyone dies.  Imagine you're trying to stealth away from the lost fight with stealth gyro, but you've only got enough time to get one tick of stealth through the gyro because the enemy is hot on your tail. you get from entrance of smc lord room to top of gates before stealth wears off and you get routed.  Having these become ground targeted wells reduces their overall utility and functionality in a way that I don't believe is healthy for the class or the playstyle. Please do not make these changes.

 

3. Berserker/defense changes:
"Golly what I've always wanted is the ability to use my less effective core bursts!" - No berserker player ever.  while the potential for this to increase overall damage is...  certainly a good delusion, this will ultimately be a trap for newer players to the spec, wasting their adrenaline and delaying access to their actual useful primal bursts.  Additionally, the change to dead or alive is bad. straight up bad. Terrible even. 2 Seconds of healing that is dependent on your damage output is in no way more beneficial than having 2 seconds of just "no I will not die" regardless of how much damage you get off. often, this passive procs when you are CC'd and undergoing massive burst windows, making your blood reckoning useless as you would have been dead before you can get meaningful damage off to heal from. Additionally, blind spam exists such that even if you could start damaging most of it would be interrupted or fail to connect anyways. This change does not make the trait more interesting, it all but kills it. Damage reduction on Grandmaster is also concerning. You don't take berserker to be a scrappy low damage sustained brawler. you take it to make things hurt in very short, very violent bursts. Transitioning it to a tankier, scrappier version of the class feels like death of the class identity. we have spellbreaker already. no one likes spellbreaker. we don't need diet spellbreaker, especially with changes proposed to defense. Also, keep the Zerk entry attack and animation. It's a very good tell that gives you enough warning to react to the incoming onslaught; having it instantaneous would almost be unfair if you're suddenly getting crit gunflamed or decapitated for 20K without a warning.

 

Defense changes - these are a mess. The cooldowns of weapon skills that take those cooldown traits are already long enough such that without the CDR they're abysmal to use. Even with CDR, no quickness or alacrity (sparse in wvw and pvp most times) makes them still slow, clunky, and telegraphed from the 1800's. Changing the ability to recover and try again is not the way. Additionally, Rousing Resiliance is exactly what I would want from a trait that activates on stunbreak - the ability to survive burst through an additional 1000 toughness for quickly reacting or effectively anticipating a CC burst combo is GOOD. it feels good to know I read my opponent and reacted accordingly while being rewarded with the ability to survive and counter. Removing this trait, while not earth moving, makes the whole interaction a little less engaging.  but hey, we get stability after CC'ing someone (this 100% is not a healthy thing without an ICD, please reconsider).  

 

There's so many more things to comment on here, but I implore you (beg you) to think about these a little more before pushing these to live. Or at the very least, use them as WVW and PVP only tests, as most of these changes would make using these traits in PVE absolutely terrible from a gameplay and class fantasy aspect. (

Edited September 17, 2022 by Wisty.4135
Forgot Instant Activation Zerkmode comment

[TasteOfChaos.2198]

IM SO EXCITED FOR WARRIOR BUFFS THANK YOU!! FINALLY HAMMER AND MACE WILL BE PERFORMING WELL AGAIN!

 

Only utilities should have no cc damage like physicals for example, otherwise all WEAPONS should have some sort of DAMAGE.

 

I have also been depressed about warrior since it was destroyed 2 years ago, and now my crippling depression is healing.

 

Thanks 😎

[Malus.2184]

 

1 hour ago, MagnustheDemon.5174 said:

Why is scrapper getting destroyed this hard? I mean, i dont WvW or PvP. I'm strictly PvE cause its fun to me. The ability right now, to have my scrapper skills, the gyros, follow me has been a blessing. I cant react fast enough nor do i have enough hand eye coordination to place aoes and move out of danger at the same time. I struggle to play the game past the base game simply because it requires a lot out of me. Scrapper, a class i picked up recently has been very helpful. From the ability to use my skills and have em follow me, to the ability of generating a barrier to keep me alive. Now, both of these things have been taken away. It may seem like i'm whining about my crutch, and i am. Scrapper is a class that helps me enjoy this game because of my physical limitations. Should i be playing single player games rather than an mmo? Sure...I suppose i could but thats neither here nor there. When you make changes consider the entirety of your player base, not just the majority please.

 

Also i know there are shortcuts and key binds to help with placing aoes...but what happens when i'm locked onto a target and i need to heal? Im going to heal the enemy. What about my barrier gryo? They cant use it.

There's also a mechanical component that I'm surprised that no one in ANet has considered. Warrior's banner was buffed for the exact reason. The Boons  gained from Gyros has a too short duration for them to be Ground-targeted, and the Gyros themselves have too long a CD as well, as there are too many things that force people out of the field.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Kaibamon.7206]

The scraper gyro changes will break the class  flow. I actually prefer my gyros to always move with me, it's a more instant and fluid motion, heal gyro and shredder combo instant and seamless while I attack. I don't appreciate those changes at all. I don't pvp just pve so don't punish me for pvp-ers. If you really want these changes to only punish pvp, then make it so only they get this change.

As for mechanist ok, so they won't get the missiles. Will you remove that tick time you added as well?

[Ghos.1326]

15 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

So, condition rev. It's pretty much only underperforming because everything in the current meta has 100 million and 1 condition clears. tldr; they're still going to be underperforming because you haven't done much to reduce the amount of clears some of these things have, and in fact have increased the amount of clears in some instances.

 

Warrior, you buffed call of valor. why? it's already a very strong defensive tool on a relatively low cooldown, and now you've made it stronger. does something like scrapper get the same buff? bulwark gyro is on a what, 35s cd and only gets around 3k-3.5k barrier.

 

Engineer, kinetic accelerators....removing the quickness. why? This was a good trait that competed with the others. You had a choice between being defensive, bursty with kinetic accel, or sustained dps with applied force. I dunno man.

Impact savant. ok? so you got rid of the reduction to vitality. and? scrapper, which was supposed to be a tank (which i can now also see you're changing to mention that scrapper is meant to be a support), can not tank.

gyro changes. not too fond, but might be alright in the long run. will need to test.

Defense field. ok, not too bad, considering it grants stab and is a large anti projectile dome.

Mechanized deployment. um, ok? i guess it's fine, but that "remove one condition when you use toolbelt skills" could have easily went back into Alchemy.....which is supposed to be the trait line dedicated to boons and manipulating conditions....my how far we have fallen from the founders' original design concepts....

Utility goggles, pretty cool. nice change, though the immune to blind for x seconds was a pretty cool little niche thing for it. considering blind spam is, ya know....a thing.

Still nothing done about Inventions and how utterly crap it is. Main hand pistol autos still have a total cast time of around .9s instead of the advertised .5.....that's cool.

 

Scourge, pretty cool changes overall. Very nice.

 

Thief changes, pretty cool. Nice.

 

Ele changes, not too bad. Might need to see it in action first, solid change to staunch auras.

 

Others, I'd need to see to know whether or not the changes made any kind of difference, good or bad. but, all in all, a few good changes. The rest....yeah, no.

Reflecting a bit after the fact:

Adding condi removal to the tool trait line is a pretty solid change. Adding more functionality to the gadgets too, is also a solid change.

The Engineer, as some of us may know, was designed originally to be the jack-of-all-trades profession (not master-of-all-trades). Tools affects its main mechanic, the toolbelt. So it's only natural that the tools trait line be more of a jack of all trades trait line, and the affected utilities, gadgets in this case, be more jack of all trade-ish as well. So once again, solid changes for Tools.

I still would also like to see more condition removal added as well to Alchemy, since that trait line is, per original design concepts, supposed to be the trait line for granting boons and condition manipulation (whether that's removing conditions or converting them). But this is a good step for Tools and Engineer in general.

My views still stand, however, about the rest of the changes. Both negative and positive. Just wanted to share this reflection.

[Mystrael.7916]

hi , i would like to give feedback for PVE specter heal support.

 

the change to the well of bounty , if it also apply to PVE will remove boon coverage we had.

 

my ''steal skill'' siphon already give perma swiftness, fury and vigor, + some might.

 

if the well now give vigor and fury , it is really overcaped and useless. please give us protection and a good scaling regen  back on this well 

[Ragnar.4257]

Very nice set of changes. It's a really pleasant suprise to see balance for PvP finally going in a positive direction. There's plenty more I'd like to see done, but this is a great step in the right direction.

It's a weird feeling to read GW2 patch-notes and find myself nodding in agreement rather than going "huh??" at every single line.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Ghos.1326]

16 minutes ago, Wisty.4135 said:

Hey, so real quick on this, and it's three pretty major things from an organized content standpoint:

1: Elementalist Changes to Gale Song and Arcane shielding: I know you guys hate passives. Passives are bad if there's no alternative to taking them because they're so good. However, these passives and their current functionalities work exactly how I would want such defensive passives to work. Arcane shielding - give me three blocks to correct my mistakes if I end up eating massive damage, and Gale Song - give me a quick way to reposition if I end up eating an attack that CC's me. This is exactly what I would want as a player who takes these traits over the higher damage/more utility alternatives that are available.

The current proposed iterations would destroy their usefulness - 3 blocks on use of an elite? How useless is that going to be in rotation of literally any spec? Rebound fights with it for identity (save from death by ignoring damage and healing), and Weave Self / Elemental Celeryseed are both used quite strictly in rotations where the passive, if taken, would be quite useless for anything but chip damage. Same goes for Eye of the Storm, where, as tempest I generate so much passive protection, even without earth traited that the additional prot on heal skill is insulting. Most times you take earth anyways, making prot not even an issue. These changes do not increase viability of the traits, but rather make them unappealing and redundant choices in most regards.

 

2. Scrapper gyros:  Ok, gyros as they are currently are a bit strong. but reverting the functionality back to ground targeted wells in content modes that all but demand constant movement destroys their viability. Imagine you're fighting zerg v zerg in SMC lord room, spinning in circles. You drop bulwark  on group to shield them from damage (bad move, but I'll allow it). your group moves out of bulwark  and everyone dies.  Imagine you're trying to stealth away from the lost fight with stealth gyro, but you've only got enough time to get one tick of stealth through the gyro because the enemy is hot on your tail. you get from entrance of smc lord room to top of gates before stealth wears off and you get routed.  Having these become ground targeted wells reduces their overall utility and functionality in a way that I don't believe is healthy for the class or the playstyle. Please do not make these changes.

 

3. Berserker/defense changes:
"Golly what I've always wanted is the ability to use my less effective core bursts!" - No berserker player ever.  while the potential for this to increase overall damage is...  certainly a good delusion, this will ultimately be a trap for newer players to the spec, wasting their adrenaline and delaying access to their actual useful primal bursts.  Additionally, the change to dead or alive is bad. straight up bad. Terrible even. 2 Seconds of healing that is dependent on your damage output is in no way more beneficial than having 2 seconds of just "no I will not die" regardless of how much damage you get off. often, this passive procs when you are CC'd and undergoing massive burst windows, making your blood reckoning useless as you would have been dead before you can get meaningful damage off to heal from. Additionally, blind spam exists such that even if you could start damaging most of it would be interrupted or fail to connect anyways. This change does not make the trait more interesting, it all but kills it. Damage reduction on Grandmaster is also concerning. You don't take berserker to be a scrappy low damage sustained brawler. you take it to make things hurt in very short, very violent bursts. Transitioning it to a tankier, scrappier version of the class feels like death of the class identity. we have spellbreaker already. no one likes spellbreaker. we don't need diet spellbreaker, especially with changes proposed to defense. Also, keep the Zerk entry attack and animation. It's a very good tell that gives you enough warning to react to the incoming onslaught; having it instantaneous would almost be unfair if you're suddenly getting crit gunflamed or decapitated for 20K without a warning.

 

Defense changes - these are a mess. The cooldowns of weapon skills that take those cooldown traits are already long enough such that without the CDR they're abysmal to use. Even with CDR, no quickness or alacrity (sparse in wvw and pvp most times) makes them still slow, clunky, and telegraphed from the 1800's. Changing the ability to recover and try again is not the way. Additionally, Rousing Resiliance is exactly what I would want from a trait that activates on stunbreak - the ability to survive burst through an additional 1000 toughness for quickly reacting or effectively anticipating a CC burst combo is GOOD. it feels good to know I read my opponent and reacted accordingly while being rewarded with the ability to survive and counter. Removing this trait, while not earth moving, makes the whole interaction a little less engaging.  but hey, we get stability after CC'ing someone (this 100% is not a healthy thing without an ICD, please reconsider).  

 

There's so many more things to comment on here, but I implore you (beg you) to think about these a little more before pushing these to live. Or at the very least, use them as WVW and PVP only tests, as most of these changes would make using these traits in PVE absolutely terrible from a gameplay and class fantasy aspect. (

I'd have to agree with you on most of these. Very solid analytical observation brother (or sister).

[Carnifex.3275]

Shadow Shroud from 1.5 to 0.69? Even in PvE?! Wut the actual.... 🤬

[Malus.2184]

20 minutes ago, Carnifex.3275 said:

Shadow Shroud from 1.5 to 0.69? Even in PvE?! Wut the actual.... 🤬

It is to be fair incredibly strong. however, I would change it so it was weaker in general and basis and then scaled well with +Healing. Right now, there's basically no scaling at all so any Specter has amazing Barrier regardless.

[eXruina.4956]

Honestly I'm at a loss for words *pumps fist ✊, soon as I read them, I couldn't wait for the Warrior changes to go live, it breathes new life into my gw2 existence. LET'S GO!! 💪 

 

I been waiting for years that its become surreal. 🤣

 

A huge thank you to the devs, to @Josh Davis.7865, @Cal Cohen.2358 (also gz on the promotion🎉) and the rest of the devs. I know this wasn't in the balance roadmap you guys announced, this just makes me more appreciative and grateful. Thank you!! 🙏 

[Sploogesque.2801]

5 hours ago, fellyn.5083 said:

 

I didn't watch the live stream, what changes are those? Specifically for revenant?

The mech will no longer proc AAR at all, and its losing the ferocity from the trait.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

If their vision is so clear why did Scrapper gyros get moved to targeted AOE?
 

"We see scrapper as overperforming relative to where a support build should be, and so we've brought down its power in a few areas rather than raising other support builds to that overperforming level."
 

"Scrapper wells are now stationary ground-targeted skills with a range of 900."
 

Why does changing something to ground-targeted mean reducing power?  Does a ground-targeting skill have some kind of ranking at Arena Net?  How does Arena Net determine if something is "overperforming"?  What kind of level of support is Arena Net looking for in WvW?  How does Arena Net define a support build?  What kind of counterbalance level does Arena Net want against support builds? They say the scrapper is overperforming in support. Where are they getting these ideas and thoughts? Did they consult with WvW players? Did they consult with scrapper players?

[Ragnar.4257]

8 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

If their vision is so clear why did Scrapper gyros get moved to targeted AOE?
 

"We see scrapper as overperforming relative to where a support build should be, and so we've brought down its power in a few areas rather than raising other support builds to that overperforming level."
 

"Scrapper wells are now stationary ground-targeted skills with a range of 900."
 

Why does changing something to ground-targeted mean reducing power?  Does a ground-targeting skill have some kind of ranking at Arena Net?  How does Arena Net determine if something is "overperforming"?  What kind of level of support is Arena Net looking for in WvW?  How does Arena Net define a support build?  What kind of counterbalance level does Arena Net want against support builds? They say the scrapper is overperforming in support. Where are they getting these ideas and thoughts? Did they consult with WvW players? Did they consult with scrapper players?

Did you think this through at all?

If something is ground-targeted, then that reduces its value in a mode where you need to move around alot.

Scrapper being one of the strongest supports in WvW is a well established fact known to the majority of the community. They haven't pulled this out of their kitten, if you weren't aware of this then it's on you, and if you disagree then you're not in the majority on this one.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

16 hours ago, Vizardlorde.8243 said:

Are you  aware that the only  damaging elite  skill Dragonhunters have, Dragon's  Maw, does only  8 damage  on WVW? 

 

Lemme guess. A trailblazer necromancer in shroud with protection, spectral armor up, who applied weakness to you had the audacity to escape your maw (and other traps placed on it) with 2k hp and 0 lifeforce...

Edited September 17, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

1 minute ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Did you think this through at all?

If something is ground-targeted, then that reduces its value in a mode where you need to move around alot.

Scrapper being one of the strongest supports in WvW is a well established fact known to the majority of the community. They haven't pulled this out of their kitten, if you weren't aware of this then it's on you, and if you disagree then you're not in the majority on this one.

 

"If something is ground-targeted, then that reduces its value in a mode where you need to move around alot."

Then let that be known, is a good idea to reduce it's "value" in the mode by that degree?  How do they rank that?  How do they place value on it?  It seems like movement is important in PvP and WvW?  What kind of value of movement do they want in a game mode?  What kind of value for movement do they want for classes?


"Scrapper being one of the strongest supports in WvW is a well established fact known to the majority of the community."

Then let it be known, let it be known that they consulted with the community and considered this well established fact.  Tell us who gave them this well established facts.  I am sure there are some more well established facts we can provide to them.  

[Ragnar.4257]

4 minutes ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

 

"If something is ground-targeted, then that reduces its value in a mode where you need to move around alot."

Then let that be known, is a good idea to reduce it's "value" in the mode by that degree?  How do they rank that?  How do they place value on it?  It seems like movement is important in PvP and WvW?  What kind of value of movement do they want in a game mode?  What kind of value for movement do they want for classes?


"Scrapper being one of the strongest supports in WvW is a well established fact known to the majority of the community."

Then let it be known, let it be known that they consulted with the community and considered this well established fact.  Tell us who gave them this well established facts.  I am sure there are some more well established facts we can provide to them.  

And if they told you who they spoke to, would you accept it? Or would you move the goalposts to questioning the validity of that person's opinion? Just seems like you're salty about the change and refuse to accept that it was warranted.

You can observe the play-rates of classes/builds in WvW and PvP to figure this stuff out. Scrapper was pretty much omni-present in large-scale WvW, and has been for many years. You don't have to "speak" to anyone to observe this. They do also speak to people in the community, but you're not going to get a list of names who you can go and harrass.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Great so vindicator is still not even PvP viable as a DPS spec. The devs really hate rev.