You removed tradeoffs from the other classes so give mirage back its second dodge, and daredevil swipe back to 1200 range

[Crab Fear.8623]

Be fair, no tradeoffs. 

Seems funky.

[Leonidrex.5649]

as a mesmer main that loves mirage I would personally rather have mirage perma stay with 1 dodge then have DD with 1200 range swipe, kek

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

And remove the swipe unblockable

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

as a mesmer main that loves mirage I would personally rather have mirage perma stay with 1 dodge then have DD with 1200 range swipe, kek

I will gladly keep DD 600 Range if it means I don't have to suffer double mirage dodge chaos rabid neverdie on top of *gestures at the Virtuoso distortion dragon*

[Kitten] pact, let's go 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261
In Roblox

[Kodama.6453]

They never said "no trade offs", tho. Otherwise they would also have to give reaper their core shroud on top of their reaper's shroud, for example.

They were just removing trade offs which they felt were no longer justified. And they will keep "natural feeling trade offs", whatever that is supposed to mean.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

25 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They never said "no trade offs", tho. Otherwise they would also have to give reaper their core shroud on top of their reaper's shroud, for example.

They were just removing trade offs which they felt were no longer justified. And they will keep "natural feeling trade offs", whatever that is supposed to mean.

They basically just lazily buffed underperforming specs, not much thought behind it tbh

[Khalisto.5780]

Honestly a 3rd dodge is insanely powerful, a good trade off would be all vigor halved, something in the lines what they done to vindi

[Lysico.4906]

No no and no.    Nope 👎 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

give mirage its second dodge back and nerf IH by 50% in pvp/ wvw. ez

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

give mirage its second dodge back and nerf IH by 50% in pvp/ wvw. ez

That doesn't make much sense at all, ih main value isnt damage anyway

Edited October 30, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[felix.2386]

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

They basically just lazily buffed underperforming specs, not much thought behind it tbh

this lol

[oscuro.9720]

They removed penalties disguised as tradeoffs (aka dumb tradeoffs). Technically every class has tradeoffs still. For example; you have to give up 1 trait line to get the espec trait line. Necro has to give up core shroud to get Reaper Shroud. So on.
For the most part, what they weren’t removing tradeoffs, just penalties.

So for DD, that is an example of a real tradeoff. You take that mechanic by taking DD, and lose base steal. For Mirage, the second dodge is a penalty, and should be reversed. However, it does need to be balanced to accommodate the second dodge, which is understandably not easy.. 

[Crab Fear.8623]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

They removed penalties disguised as tradeoffs (aka dumb tradeoffs). Technically every class has tradeoffs still. For example; you have to give up 1 trait line to get the espec trait line. Necro has to give up core shroud to get Reaper Shroud. So on.
For the most part, what they weren’t removing tradeoffs, just penalties.

So for DD, that is an example of a real tradeoff. You take that mechanic by taking DD, and lose base steal. For Mirage, the second dodge is a penalty, and should be reversed. However, it does need to be balanced to accommodate the second dodge, which is understandably not easy.. 

Yea, by not working when stunned, launched, pushed, ect. then it will be balanced

The mechanic is to be able to perform actions while cloaking, and gain ambush skills.

I'm sure you want the cake and a full gut though

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Yea, by not working when stunned, launched, pushed, ect. then it will be balanced

The mechanic is to be able to perform actions while cloaking, and gain ambush skills.

I'm sure you want the cake and a full gut though

Probably, but it’s a decision that’s more removed than vindi dodge, so the implications of reverting the change are likely more widespread because it’s been under a longer period of adjustments, regardless of how good/bad the spec is. I don’t know enough about the nuances of Mirage builds to say specifically how it could be balanced though. 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Swipe isn't really a downside. 600 range for unblockable is worth it because it lets you interrupt blocks and steal boons through blocks at the expense of range. It's a fair tradeoff that makes DD feel different than core thief which is what especs should do. If you feel like you are kitten while playing DD then you are misunderstanding the spec.

As for Mirage, the problem remains that mirage cloak is a gamebreaking mechanic. Being able to dodge while CC'd and use skills while dodging is the very definition of uninteractive BS. Mirage was extremely bad for the game back when it was meta, and unless they totally rework the spec so that attacking-while-defending monkey nonsense is not its defining mechanic, it should never be allowed to be meta again. So buffing the other Mesmer specs last patch while leaving Mirage as kitten was a smart balance move by CMC.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Master Ketsu.4569

[UNOwen.7132]

1 hour ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Swipe isn't really a downside. 600 range for unblockable is worth it because it lets you interrupt blocks and steal boons through blocks at the expense of range. It's a fair tradeoff that makes DD feel different than core thief which is what especs should do. If you feel like you are kitten while playing DD then you are misunderstanding the spec.

As for Mirage, the problem remains that mirage cloak is a gamebreaking mechanic. Being able to dodge while CC'd and use skills while dodging is the very definition of uninteractive BS. Mirage was extremely bad for the game back when it was meta, and unless they totally rework the spec so that attacking-while-defending monkey nonsense is not its defining mechanic, it should never be allowed to be meta again. So buffing the other Mesmer specs last patch while leaving Mirage as kitten was a smart balance move by CMC.

It is a downside. The 600 range lost is huge, the unblockable ... really isn't. The situations where it's better to steal through a block rather than steal to interrupt a high-value skill, like a heal skill, after the block are few and far between. It doesn't really make DD feel different, it makes DD feel terrible. But the trait line is still really good, so you have to pick it, which sucks.

[NotFound.7813]

4 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It is a downside. The 600 range lost is huge, the unblockable ... really isn't. The situations where it's better to steal through a block rather than steal to interrupt a high-value skill, like a heal skill, after the block are few and far between. It doesn't really make DD feel different, it makes DD feel terrible. But the trait line is still really good, so you have to pick it, which sucks.

A change nobody asked for. Like engi trait wich stuns/blinds after every dodge. 

[Khalisto.5780]

6 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

They removed penalties disguised as tradeoffs (aka dumb tradeoffs). Technically every class has tradeoffs still. For example; you have to give up 1 trait line to get the espec trait line. Necro has to give up core shroud to get Reaper Shroud. So on.
For the most part, what they weren’t removing tradeoffs, just penalties.

So for DD, that is an example of a real tradeoff. You take that mechanic by taking DD, and lose base steal. For Mirage, the second dodge is a penalty, and should be reversed. However, it does need to be balanced to accommodate the second dodge, which is understandably not easy.. 

some classes feel like core+, the best example right now is untamed, it can even give up wilderness survival much need by any other ranger spec to condi cleanse, so the class has as much cleanse, superior dmg, mobility and utility.

[Bazsi.2734]

Step 1: years of work to implement tradeoffs across (almost) all e-specs.
Step 2: stop said work just shy of being finished, let years pass in this incomplete state
Step 3: release EoD with only some new e-specs having tradeoffs
Step 4: remove tradeoffs off of some of the e-specs
Step 5: ?????

At what point will this start making sense?
 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 10/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

They removed penalties disguised as tradeoffs (aka dumb tradeoffs). Technically every class has tradeoffs still. For example; you have to give up 1 trait line to get the espec trait line.

Yes there are opportunity costs but that is not what they meant by tradeoffs. For instance, Reaper has both an opportunity cost (foregoing your 3rd core traitline) and a tradeoff (trading death shroud for reaper shroud).

On 10/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

Necro has to give up core shroud to get Reaper Shroud. So on.
For the most part, what they weren’t removing tradeoffs, just penalties.

This doesn't apply to chronomancer.

On 10/30/2022 at 8:09 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

So for DD, that is an example of a real tradeoff. You take that mechanic by taking DD, and lose base steal. For Mirage, the second dodge is a penalty, and should be reversed. However, it does need to be balanced to accommodate the second dodge, which is understandably not easy.. 

The druid and soulbeast tradeoffs were a bit lame but now you have the problem where there is no reason at all to take core ranger over slb.

Edited November 1, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Kodama.6453]

26 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

The druid and soulbeast tradeoffs were a bit lame but now you have the problem where there is no reason at all to take core ranger over slb.

This is what made it weird for me. The point of trade offs for elite specs was to give incentive to use the core class. Now there is literally no reason to run core anymore for some classes (with some exceptions, for example core engineer is still the only way to get elite toolbelt skills depending on your elite skill).

But well, some classes were already like this with the release of EoD. Untamed never had any trade off installed, for example, everything the core ranger had access to, the untamed also got.

[Ragnar.4257]

The only thing that matters is whether a spec is over/under-performing.

Pointless squables over "your class has less tradeoff than my class" is pathetic.

Daredevil is not under-performing.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:51 PM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Yea, by not working when stunned, launched, pushed, ect. then it will be balanced

The mechanic is to be able to perform actions while cloaking, and gain ambush skills.

I'm sure you want the cake and a full gut though

Can't be done unless they really want to touch intricate stuff. Mirage dodge is a skill and skills just work like this. If you're able to use them while casting something, you're able to use them while crowd controlled (pretty much like shouts); if you're NOT able to use them while crowd controlled, you can't use them in the middle of other actions either. That's how gw2 skills work. 

On 10/31/2022 at 2:04 AM, UNOwen.7132 said:

It is a downside. The 600 range lost is huge, the unblockable ... really isn't. The situations where it's better to steal through a block rather than steal to interrupt a high-value skill, like a heal skill, after the block are few and far between. It doesn't really make DD feel different, it makes DD feel terrible. But the trait line is still really good, so you have to pick it, which sucks.

You're unironically bad if you can't see the value of interrupting a block -stab be damned- so that the team can secure an otherwise impossible kill.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Crab Fear.8623]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Can't be done unless they really want to touch intricate stuff. Mirage dodge is a skill and skills just work like this. If you're able to use them while casting something, you're able to use them while crowd controlled (pretty much like shouts); if you're NOT able to use them while crowd controlled, you can't use them in the middle of other actions either. That's how gw2 skills work. 

You're unironically bad if you can't see the value of interrupting a block -stab be damned- so that the team can secure an otherwise impossible kill.

 

Maybe it shouldn't work like that at all then, but I imagine they can seperate the action and effect.

Can't do the action, of initiating the cloak if stunned, but once you have the effect you can still perform actions.

I would try to, because it isn't a dodge, but more of a skill, it seems like smoke bomb. Where the stunbreak is instant, but the stealth isn't.

Maybe the cast time would need to approach zero, but be enough mathematically to count for stuns, while the effect is no different than having distortion, stealth, superspeed, ect.

I can't say for the new team, but I am pretty confident mirage cloak can be reworked this way, because of walking through mirrors grants the effect.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

11 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Maybe the cast time would need to approach zero, but be enough mathematically to count for stuns, while the effect is no different than having distortion, stealth, superspeed, ect.

Just like The Prestige, then. Which means you wouldn't be able to activate it in the midst of other actions.