November 29 Balance Update Preview

[Stadsport.8714]

3 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

Which I still don't think is enough to fix Mech's "two bodies" problem.

 

But it does surprisingly try to solve a few issues at once, namely discouraging rifle builds and mayyybe encouraging more mace use. Y'know, that weapon that Mech was supposedly designed to use.

 

At any rate...boohoo waaaaa.

Oh I agree, that's really the point I was trying to emphasize. The change they made is so minor and asks so little of the player, and yet people are acting like the sky is falling, while ele mains continue to develop carpal tunnel!

[Hedonismbot.3697]

16 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Don't forget about weaver.  The devs sure did.

you know, i’m not sure about that. elementalists did get a “new” weapon, and that’s quite a big change. some small changes to sword have been made. tempest changes to WvW are significant but “small” too. but maybe their stance is “let’s see how scepter plays out” before accidentally creating a monster.

speaking of monsters…

catalyst is to receive some crazy changes. and it’s a spec that seems to really force you onto hammer. if arbitrary attunement swapping is supposed to be catalysts’ pve identity, then only the new scepter could be an alternative, as swapping into water on any other weapon will leave you “stranded” with subpar abilities. 

contrary to some design directions, I feel elementalist was not “supposed” to be swapping attunements solely for dps. at least water wasn’t intended that way. but as things change so too can water i guess. it just seems odd to me, that balancing of a spec is apparently being made in tandem with its weapon? not every spec must be married to its new weapon and should be playable with a different one, no? on that note, energy management is just another layer of minigame catalysts need to play with. the mechanic again seems suited solely for hammer. the only reasonable change i could see being made here is that “slower” skills generate more energy? staff cata the dream…

[conclusory.4693]

I assume that the range nerf on Deadeye is to compensate for allowing them to move, but I think the limited movement speed is really sufficient, if even needed.  A pity it's not an army crawl (that would be cool).

That being said, I am against reducing the range, unless the plan is to nerf the range across the board, which will be a difficult sell as well.

[Farwind.8016]

So, I've got some feedback on the mechanist changes, and why I think this particular way of nerfing mechanist is a bad Idea.

Right now microing the mech is a frustrating experience. The only build on mechanist where you're actively microing the mech currently is the heal alacrity build, where your main role is centered around giving the boons from the mech to the group. Your crisis zone or barrier burst comes off cooldown, you mirco your mech to the correct location, and then you're rewarded by giving you're burst of boons to the squad.

The current change as proposed makes it a punishment to not be constantly microing the mech. To play, you'll now have to be constantly pressing f6/f7, getting punished for every second the mech isn't attacking, every second the mech isn't withing 360 of the player, and every time the mech decides to run to the other side of the boss to attack when you press f6 for some unknown reason. it makes microing the mech almost a passive part of playing the class.

If the implementation were instead something like f2 on power mech gives you a damage bonus for 6 seconds based on how close you are to the mech, that would be a better solution because it's a reward for using the f2and proximity correctly. Suddenly you'd want to time your rifle/nade/f1 burst for when f2 came off cooldown -- ensuring you position, execute f2, and drop your damage at the same time. Then you get ready for when it'll be time again to drop your burst again, similar to how you're rewarded for dropping your burst of boons on heal alacrity mechanist.

[Marhal.6579]

Really disappointed by the lack of sword changes for weaver. Especially since they talked about power budget in the balance philosophy. The power build is fully melee, has practically zero utility and ok-ish cc.  But it's still left at ~36k dps while many other builds with more utility (and/or range) do more dps.

The sword condi build is also mostly melee but is left to do less damage than scepter. It has some decent utility in focus, but so does the scepter build. So why is sword relegated to being the worst dps option?

And why is lightning flash still left on a 40s cooldown? Is the 1.5 damage coefficient that problematic? Is the ability to teleport while channeling abilities really that strong in pve?

[The Boz.2038]

16 hours ago, loa.6340 said:

Hello guys,

 

Thank you very much for ruining my quality of life in this game by nerfing my favorite class, The Mechanist. Also thank you for tricking me into buying EoD expansion, showing off The Mechanist class, how good, how easy it is just so you could nerf it a few months later, after it got already nerfed. Until this time, I only had good words about this game in my circle of grown ups, this will change and you will, probably lose on players. 

 

I don't care about the other classes, and I won't be forced to play something else, some class that almost made me quit this game, until I've found The Mechanist. heck, I never had so many hours on a single game, in a single class, that's how good it was!

 

I am really pissed on this changes, it hurts that I have to quit something that I enjoyed so much! I don't like complex builds, pvp and other shits. I like the story, PvE! Nothing else! 

 

Firetruck you,

loa

 

You just typed out my joke post, but sincerely. 
Wow.

[loa.6340]

14 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

Omg you sound like the laziest, least fun person ever.

 

If you want a game that basically plays itself, and can't even be bothered to come closer to an enemy than 1200 range without a significant tradeoff, then yeah you should quit.

Hey mate, its nice that you already assumed that I am normal like you maybe are. Never thought I should bring a label with me so people can be understandable towards another. For my condition, this class was the easiest to play. I dont really want to get into details on why and how different we maybe are, but you will surely get it.

 

Firetruck you,

 

loa

[soul.9651]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You just typed out my joke post, but sincerely. 
Wow.

They sure can write their essays on forum posts, but pressing more than one button in game naaaaaaahhhhh

[soulknight.9620]

Okay, now that its settled a bit. Heres my take on the ele changes (not that anyone cares, but whatever). 

Scepter changes look nice for competetive modes. I dont actually see any significant changes for pve aside from some QoL improvements. Although plz consider changing the Rock barrier toughness bonus to something else like flat dmg reduction or smtn, cause it makes ele lives a lot harder in raids with low tough tanks. 

Stormsoul buff is not enough to make power builds (aside from catalyst) more viable. The problem is that ele would have to sacrifice raging storm which would leave us with somewhat 5% bonus dps increase. That alone is not enough. 

Shearing edge buff is nice, but its rarely used outside of pvp/OW. It doesnt affect any dps rotations on power or condi dps builds. The impact on these builds is non-existant.

Now for the specs:

Catalyst looks promising, but i would like to see something done about the doublecasting of hammer 3 orbs. 

Tempest needs a look at alac application. Either make it pulsing or give tempest alac on any underused shout (not much, 3 secs baseline would be nice to get the rotation of OL started and/or ease up a bit of pressure if u dont finish OL for some reason). 

Weaver. Scepter weaver is in a good state. But plz do something about both power and condi sword. Atm its not even funny how underperfoming it is. If there is no resources to make a permanent solution (if there are some skill reworks planned), just up the dmg on sword skills. That way you wouldnt powercreep any other builds aside from sword and it wouldnt be hard to implement since the solution would be just to change a few numbers like u did on staff back in august. You can always tone it down a bit in any hotfix if that would get out of hand. There is still time to do some coefficent changes untill the patch day, plz consider it. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by soulknight.9620

[Moradorin.6217]

TRADE-OFF REMOVAL

 

Mirage - has 1 dodge in two modes and 2 dodges in one mode. 

 

All other classes got trade-offs removed even soulbeast got back pet swap, etc. 

 

Mirage was the first to get a trade-off and no mention of its removal.

 

ANET HAS ZERO CREDIBILITY UNTIL THEY ADDRESS MIRAGE'S DODGES!

[Batalix.2873]

6 hours ago, loa.6340 said:

Hey mate, its nice that you already assumed that I am normal like you maybe are. Never thought I should bring a label with me so people can be understandable towards another. For my condition, this class was the easiest to play. I dont really want to get into details on why and how different we maybe are, but you will surely get it.

 

Firetruck you,

 

loa

 

Nearly every espec has an LI build. Here are a few:

 

https://mukluklabs.com/gw2-builds

 

A lot of these other especs are very well-designed in their own right, are fun to play, and don't break the game like Mech.

 

If out of 27 classes you can't pivot to something else after a job gets nerfed, maybe this just isn't the game for you. But I do highly recommend you explore other options before quitting.

 

Take care. 🤗🤗

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

Ok, I tried to read at least the posts related to mech changes but there are just way too many for me to work through all, so apologies if I repeat what others have already said and probably said better. 

I love mechanist, its the e-spec I looked forward to the most and it is everything I have wanted Ranger pets to be. But I get it, in time honored tradition the new specs get super-buffed so people will try them out and now it is time to pare back the super buff to something less than game breaking. But THIS approach? I think turning Mechanist into a pet micromanagement profession is going to . Its a low intensity play style. I agree that low complexity/effort should never turn out the DPS and results that the higher skill cap specs do, but that should be imposed without making players compensate for AI which is often unreliable. 

I would recommend an entirely different approach to resolving the "AKF Autoattack" meme.
1. tone down overall Mech spec DPS (NOT core Engineer skills/traits!) to put it solidly mid-tier 

2. increase the interval between F1-F3 skill autocast. If a player has the ability to use those skills faster than autocast, great! They can benefit from their ability, and if they dont the mech skills still are in use just not as frequently as they would be otherwise. 

3. Create a stacking buff (visible to player) on the mech that stacks only on skill combos where either the field or the finisher are from the Engineer. High skill players that want top tier DPS should be able to boost their mech via the stacking buff into the top tier through skill combos. 

There may be other ways to accomplish this last, but you get the idea. Use a method that rewards higher skill play without forcing us to become mech babysitters. For those who dont want to or can't learn a higher skill of play, they aren't penalized. Conversely Skilled players should be rewarded for their ability to play the GAME well without having to babysit an AI. 

[Josif.2015]

The changes for engineer's tool kit and elementalist's scepter are good, even if I think these two professions could've used a few more buffs. Deadeye being able to move while kneeling, even if it's really slow at 25% movement speed is an interesting buff in PvE, but Firebrand's tome rework is definitely the most interesting change about this patch and I'm curious to see how it turns out.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Karras.2945

[Val.7826]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:53 PM, loa.6340 said:

Hello guys,

 

Thank you very much for ruining my quality of life in this game by nerfing my favorite class, The Mechanist. Also thank you for tricking me into buying EoD expansion, showing off The Mechanist class, how good, how easy it is just so you could nerf it a few months later, after it got already nerfed. Until this time, I only had good words about this game in my circle of grown ups, this will change and you will, probably lose on players. 

 

I don't care about the other classes, and I won't be forced to play something else, some class that almost made me quit this game, until I've found The Mechanist. heck, I never had so many hours on a single game, in a single class, that's how good it was!

 

I am really pissed on this changes, it hurts that I have to quit something that I enjoyed so much! I don't like complex builds, pvp and other shits. I like the story, PvE! Nothing else! 

 

Firetruck you,

loa

 

 

I can understand your frustration due to class balances, but for what I know, for what I live in this game, patch notes feel worst than they often really are. I have a Deadeye main and I am actually outraged about what they are going to do to that specialization, and, as far as I know, this specialization was already reworked a lot since its release. What I am trying to say is that you should just wait and try the reworked Mechanist, understanding that it is a kinda new and very solid and popular specialization, and it will be patched again and again in the future, just belive in the possibility that your beloved Mechanist will be always playable in the way you like, and remember, in PvE every build is viable and enjoyable regardless any nerf, you should see my characters, one of them is a dual swords Spellbreaker, nobody plays a dual swords Spellbreaker.

Belive me, if you are a PvE player, just don't care about balances because you will always be able to play your spec and be efficient with it, you should only complain when the devs change some lore thing that ruin the sense of your specialization, that is completely fair.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Val.7826

[Eleandra.4859]

Thief feedback:

1. Please stop doing half-assed things and and then spread out the other half over a time frame of months.

Example: The Specter shroud nerf was incompetently (hastily?) done and I am sure you knew of its impact.

The necessity of a compensation was evident from the start and should have been part of the patch in October. The 33% damage reduction in shroud may somehow prop the damage Specter up but it does not fix the lazy execution of the (Support) Specter concept.

 

I appreciate that you, at least on the voice track, acknowledged that you need to take a deeper look at support specter but how long shall that take in a 10 year old game? You know about this flaw since the first Specter beta phase (because you read the forum and you were given this feedback) and have not done anything to fix it yet. Can I expect to enjoy your game again in two weeks or in a year?

 

2. What is Specter supposed to be?

You do not state your design goals of especs and people have to make up their own mind. In my case I thought that the shroud mechanics was meant to be a sort of sustain mechanic. Your current implementation makes it into something else (for pvp a means for condi cleanse or stealth) . For me at least that leads to frustration because I have to guess what an espec should do or what I can expect to not work anymore in the near future. I can also not foresee what you are going to nerf.

I was pretty sure for Specter you would separate access to sustain and damage by locking both behind conflicting traits (eg. introducing a support, tank and damage trait line for specter).

 

3. I can only speak for the thief class but your balance decision seem to often make me fight against my own class mechanics. Instead fighting a boss/enemy, I feel I am trying to compensate for the fact that I play thief.

As an example: You design the Daredevil to use dodges as their main means of defense and sustain. In raids I am however forced to dodge on cooldown in order to keep my damage up instead of using it for its intended purpose. This is not game breaking but at least for me the sum of such decisions taken is fun-breaking.

With Specter you provide shroud mechanics but take away a large part of the  sustain aspect (not debating the overpowered-ness of shroud here). It is not about that you decide to change a situation but that the WAY you do it is often unnecessarily invasive and fun-breaking for me.

 

Please stop HOW you do these things.

 

4. Please stop hitting Deadeye it already lies bleeding and suffering before you.

A great example for this situation is how you plan to change the Deadeye espec. I mean, honestly, if this spec is in need of anything it is a buff or a deep change to its core identity, speaking about flawed and incompetent class design here. But for some reason your internal decision processes lead you to this mind-bogglingly bad idea?

 

Please stop doing this, put effort into what you do. You have a great game. It is high-time the espec design and balance teams become added value instead of being detrimental to the game's success.

 

You made me quit this beautiful game after over 10 years where for me the negative impact of your balancing activities started outweighing the good all the other teams do (and that is to say something after I stayed through the former "balancing team". I am still sad about this and passionate and I hope these lines reach someone at Anet in a positive way.

 

Closing notes: I do not mean to offend or attack any of the espec design or balance teams but I want to make it clear that the results of these team's work is,in my opinion, less than sufficient. This has no implication for the personal value of any of these team's members, I am sure you are all great and very valuable people.

 

And on this, hopefully conciliatory tone: Peace out. I would be happy to come back to a better game compared to how it is today sometime in the future.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Eleandra.4859
typos and punctuation

[AshkyLicious.4729]

@Cal Cohen.2358

I really would like a post from CMC that explains why Mirage still gets treated like trash!

- Why do we still have 1 dodge in PvP/WvW?

- Why haven't you reverted all the trade-offs that seriously harmed Mirage in very bad ways?

- Why havent axe bugs still been addressed yet, since axe is Mirages special weapon?

- I really want to know if you ever are going to actually fix Mirage and turn it into a enjoyable eSpec?

- When (time frame please) will you fix Mirage?

I really think Mirage is one of the most gutted eSpecs right now, and its been like that for too long!
We paid for PoF too, and we deserve that our eSpec works, is viable and enjoyable, just as everybody else! 

Edited November 19, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

20 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I really would like a comment from CMC on why Mirage still gets treated like trash!

- Why do we still have 1 dodge in PvP/WvW?

- Why haven't you reverted all the trade-offs that seriously harmed this eSpec in very bad ways?

- Why havent axe bugs still been addressed yet, since axe is Mirages special weapon?

- I really want to know if you ever are going to actually fix Mirage and turn it into a enjoyable eSpec?

- When will you fix this eSpec?

Please be clear, cuz I really think Mirage is one of the most gutted eSpec right now, and its been like that for too long!

We paid for PoF too, and we deserve that our eSpec works, is viable and enjoyable, just as everybody else! 

Why not play core Mesmer then? After all Mirage is just Mesmer+. Class skills are the same as core, it plays same as core but it also gained broken evade and fancy ambush skills that you just spam, beside everything else plays like core, so play core?
Mirage needs a full rework of mechanics, but if somehow A-net decides to give back second dodge then gg, PvP and WvW will become even bigger clown fiesta than currently is.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

31 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Why not play core Mesmer then? After all Mirage is just Mesmer+. Class skills are the same as core, it plays same as core but it also gained broken evade and fancy ambush skills that you just spam, beside everything else plays like core, so play core?
Mirage needs a full rework of mechanics, but if somehow A-net decides to give back second dodge then gg, PvP and WvW will become even bigger clown fiesta than currently is.

You gotto be kidding me...🙄 You go focus on the professions/eSpecs you enjoy, and I'll focus on mine. Thank you!

Edited November 17, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Ruisenior.6342]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Mirage needs a full rework of mechanics

Are you kidding right?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 minutes ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

Are you kidding right?

No, I'm not. Mirage is just core+, I still don't know why it's called elite specialization to this day, since it plays exactly the same as core with 1 more gimmick and that's it. F1-F4 is the same as core, all skills behave same as core, and then you have that toxic gimmick of cloak and ambush skills and that's it. 
Same trash, but with a reskin and additional smell choices.

[AliamRationem.5172]

12 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

No, I'm not. Mirage is just core+, I still don't know why it's called elite specialization to this day, since it plays exactly the same as core with 1 more gimmick and that's it. F1-F4 is the same as core, all skills behave same as core, and then you have that toxic gimmick of cloak and ambush skills and that's it. 
Same trash, but with a reskin and additional smell choices.

Mirage cloak + ambush is a pretty big gimmick, though.  I think mirage is one of the most enjoyable elites, imo.

[Gwynnion.7364]

2 hours ago, Eleandra.4859 said:

Please stop HOW you do these things.

This, really.  I understand limited time and resources but it would be nice if the devs stopped fixing things that aren't broken and making changes for change's sake and focused on stuff that actually is, you know, broken.  "Design philosophy" spitballing aside, I don't get the sense the devs know what they want especs to do or be about, and this results in reactive, half-thought-out changes like the Specter shroud nerf or arbitrary changes that make no sense whatsoever like Deadeye's kneel and range.  They wouldn't have to go back and revert or tweak so many changes if they actually knew the profession mechanics and had a clear idea of what they were trying to accomplish in the first place.

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Why not play core Mesmer then? After all Mirage is just Mesmer+. Class skills are the same as core, it plays same as core but it also gained broken evade and fancy ambush skills that you just spam, beside everything else plays like core, so play core?
Mirage needs a full rework of mechanics, but if somehow A-net decides to give back second dodge then gg, PvP and WvW will become even bigger clown fiesta than currently is.

You can argue what ever you like it does not change the fact that CMC announced the removal of the trade-offs that got added a few years ago. Well the first trade-off was Mirage losing its dodge. Then later came Soulbeast losing merge, etc. I could argue soulbeast also needs a total rework for the same exact reason you state, but it would only be an attempt to distract from the real topic with some form of what-about-ism in which you point to another class to justify why the class of topic cannot be fixed/changed.

 

If they are rolling back the trade-offs, well they missed the mark. Simple as that. If they arent rolling back trade-offs then I think Soulbeast shouldnt have its other pet, chrono shouldnt have dist, Virt sure as hell shouldnt have dist. and VINDICATOR SHOULD consume a full bar still. THAT IS IF WE ARE NOT ROLLING BACK TRADE-OFFS. OTHERWISE MIRAGE IS MISSING A kittenING DODGE! Simple as that.

[Gwynnion.7364]

It occurs to me one of the best things the devs could do is sit down and hash out, in a back of the envelope way, at least, what they think all the especs should look like if they were to design them from scratch, today, with their current philosophy.  

Because there's a bunch of stuff like Elementalist utility skills that would never pass muster by EoD standards, and it would be nice for them to approach design with an eye to selling people on playing these specs instead of defaulting to, "That's how it's always been."

It would be a lot of work, surely, and there would definitely be disagreements with the player base, but it would be nice for them to put their cards on the table.  And it would be far more meaningful than "philosophy" or these random patch notes that seem to go every which way.

[Batalix.2873]

47 minutes ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

It occurs to me one of the best things the devs could do is sit down and hash out, in a back of the envelope way, at least, what they think all the especs should look like if they were to design them from scratch, today, with their current philosophy.  

Because there's a bunch of stuff like Elementalist utility skills that would never pass muster by EoD standards, and it would be nice for them to approach design with an eye to selling people on playing these specs instead of defaulting to, "That's how it's always been."

It would be a lot of work, surely, and there would definitely be disagreements with the player base, but it would be nice for them to put their cards on the table.  And it would be far more meaningful than "philosophy" or these random patch notes that seem to go every which way.

 

I would agree with this idea, provided that we actually got actual niches instead of 27 specs all trying to be generalists.

 

And that would include making more than just Druid and Herald the "pure healer" specs. Firebrand and Scourge should not do damage and lean harder into support traits: healing/boons and barrier/cleansing/ripping/rezzing.

 

Maybe also develop more mechanics around distinguishing tanks as an actual thing. Scrapper, Reaper, Spellbreaker, at minimum. I could see either old or upcoming specs giving us a tanky Ranger or Mesmer. And imo a Catalyst rework is begged that wants to be tankier.

 

A fair number of players don't care about dealing damage, so it kind of sucks that there are so few especs that are really designed around healing and tanking. In trying to avoid the holy Trinity, GW2 just leaned full-on into "everything DPS".

 

Also, I would hope a rework would distinguish between melee and ranged classes better. Encourage 10 man groups to not all stack on each other but split into ranged and melee subgroups. Implement a ranged tax.

 

And, finally, I would want a rework to introduce far more "incomparable" mechanics to work with, particularly more boons and condis, but also with making more weapons about moving oneself or enemies/allies around the field and less about strict damage. I think part of what has affected balancing and the meta is spreading out too few boons/condis across too many classes. Give more than Chrono alac, suddenly now you have the expectation of alac, and now every class needs alac. Give more than Mesmer confusion, now you have it arbitrarily tacked on to Mech mace. And stop slapping torment (or fire) on everything just because you need a weapon to do condi damage. 

 

I think each expac should have introduced a couple of new condis/boons and balanced those especs around primarily using only those effects (and those from core). That way, each expac would have a self-contained, "horizontal" power curve that no other expac's especs could poach from and create huge meta inequities. For sake of example, if torment were a PoF exclusive condi but confusion were a HoT exclusive condi (ignoring if that even sorts out flavorfully), if one condi proved more "meta" than the other it would be much easier to balance base numbers and coefficients without breaking core class fantasies or tacking weird new crap onto classes that didn't want it.

 

I hope it happens some day, but as it stands the more homogenized the classes become the less interested I become in playing this game long term.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Batalix.2873