New player here that bought expansions and got x2 max level boosts - here is what I think.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

Yes, the mechanics not being thrown into the player's face all at once is mostly preferable - although there certainly are people who like having all of the cards on the table, but then the Wiki exists - when it comes to processing information.

Problem with core Tyria's lack of challenge is that said knowledge has nowhere to be used, staying for a long time in the realms of pure theory.
And then OPE, THERE'S GOES GRAVITY with HoT's SNAP BACK TO REALITY, and it shows simply through virtually no long-time player ever claiming Maguuma's Heart is difficult, save for the HPs. It's almost always the whiplash from the core-to-HoT transition, since during the 1-80 tutorial there's no reason to utilize anything your character can do other than (pet) auto-attacks.

It's like learning any other (physical) skill solely through books: you can spend your whole life reading about backflips and still end up breaking your neck on the first try.

Yeah, said that for a long time that core should probably see a slight rebalance with the difficulty curve to more smoothly blend with transitioning towards expansion content (HoT in particular). But even with that "core is too easy" approach, going through the leveling process helps with understanading the game/profession better, unless of course someone is ok with soaking in more information at once, which probably still would boil down to dosing that information in smaller portions. As much as in that case using lvl 80 boost is still on the table, I wouldn't say the tip about "average new player not using lvl 80 booster instantly" is somehow unreasonable (or how you called it "a perpetuated scam"). Simply because of the gradual introduction of the basic mechanics/skills/traits. The biggest issue with core being too easy is that it might give the impression to those players that what they're ""supposed to learn"" isn't really needed, at least until they go further into the game by entering expansion zones.

...on the other hand chances are that's still probably largely perceived by us differently due to already having the understanding of the game and gearing, while the new players will still use mix of stats.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[captrowdy.9561]

Why limit something based on your opinion? I boosted my first char. After playing to lvl 30 and being board to death. I used pvp to test out different classes and elite specs. When I found one I liked I played pvp to learn the class and then boosted it. I have one of every class that I boosted from tomes of knowledge. 

[Valisha.8650]

Just because you jump into a game without doing any research in advance, does not mean so does everyone else, sugar.

[Axelteas.7192]

Quote

I didn't appreciate it and the sense of character development (quintessential MMO) disappeared somewhere  I quickly got burnt out.

 

The sense of character development do not exist in GW2. No gear progression in this game, no meaningful rewards in dungeons, only cosmetic improvements. And your powerful toon will be downleveled in low areas and be killed by trash mobs if you do`nt fight back.

Most Anet fanboys defend this by saying the progression is about the player becoming more skillful...kek.

[Einsof.1457]

Agree 100%

[Einsof.1457]

22 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

 

The sense of character development do not exist in GW2. No gear progression in this game, no meaningful rewards in dungeons, only cosmetic improvements. And your powerful toon will be downleveled in low areas and be killed by trash mobs if you do`nt fight back.

Most Anet fanboys defend this by saying the progression is about the player becoming more skillful...kek.

Masteries. 455 of them. 

[Vyr.9387]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...
Simply because of the gradual introduction of the basic mechanics/skills/traits.
...

As I've said, I agree with the point, but, come to think of it, is there any gradual introduction in core Tyria to begin with?

My memory sucks, and nowadays I obviously tend to blaze through 1-80 exactly because I've seen it a thousand times, but all I can think of is that leveling pop-up window with tooltips containing a brief description of some in-game features.

Otherwise, the tutorial boss does nothing, all the open world champions have 2-3 abilities and maybe an irrelevant Defiance bar, and the only time it's outright required to use some "advanced" technique is the chest in starter zones guarded by a circular AoE which wouldn't be able to teach people dodging even if it were dropping legendary pants.

The skills and traits are kind of a weird topic. And, I think, another thing core Tyria teaches new players contrary to the structure of the end-game.
At 80, one of the most praised qualities of GW2's combat is being able to make a build on a mob-to-mob basis - if you can be bothered - without the game throwing some artificial 50g fees at you for a respec. A lot of trash? Shadow Flare into Collateral Damage! A legendary bounty coming up but there's nobody to play with at 4 AM? Channel the inner High Zen state with a completely new build in a second and JUST DO IT!
But before that, you pick Assassin's Signet for that raw Power boost, but then come upon a cave full of veteran hyleks and want to switch to Roll for Initiative because you just can't burst all of them down before they burst you, and the game gives you a middle finger due to a lack of HPs - literally the exact opposite of the flexibility you're in some situations even expected to be capable of.

Wonder if the go-to suggestion at this point shouldn't be precisely "you HAVE to boost your first character because this game's only proper tutorial is hidden behind the third expansion". At least 'till ANet improve the actual one people start with.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

The boosters only help selling the expansions, but not binding the players in the long term. On the one side is ANet selling them with the expansions and more in the gemshop, on the other hand is the player-base (regular players, guides, content-creators) who highly recommend to ignore the boosters for the known reasons.

The weird situation here is that ANet is also interested in keeping players. It does not generate as much profit as the game/expansion/DLC-sales, but a happy customer is more likely to spend more money. The boosters are required to help players play the content they paid for. Customer is happy.

Why do the boosters exist? We do not have monthly subscription fees. They do not get more money from players the longer it takes them to reach certain parts of the game. The whole gemstore is filled with convenience and skins. The $/€ to gem to gold exchange works, but you cannot actually win the game with this. Our gear progression is so flat, the personal skill-level outmatches gear superiority with ease.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

 

The sense of character development do not exist in GW2. No gear progression in this game, no meaningful rewards in dungeons, only cosmetic improvements. And your powerful toon will be downleveled in low areas and be killed by trash mobs if you do`nt fight back.

Okay....

One of the most common complaints is that max level characters with decent builds, even when down leveled, are to powerful.

Maybe you experience here was different.

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

Most Anet fanboys defend this by saying the progression is about the player becoming more skillful...kek.

 

Right, so, was this you just a few days/weeks ago?:

Players skill is not only finding the right buttons. It's also knowing how to engage with the games build and equipment system. Seems weird to complain about not being able to build your characters properly, while at the same time throwing shade at the "get skilled at the game" part.

@TC

I agree and personally would have wished for the 80 boost to unlock once 1 character was leveled to 80 (there could even be a note that this becomes available at that point, encouraging or giving new players another goal to try to reach 80). Unfortunately this ship has likely sailed by now.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

9 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

Third time's the charm, as the saying goes:
I am not saying it's some game-breaking issue.
I'm saying the sentiment "your Ascended friends will just downscale and you can all play the same content together" has a very small impact because the game's much more complex than simply character stats, which I wanted to point out due to the vast majority of people pointing at it as if it made some difference outside of longer fights.

It's like saying Apple products are overpriced: doesn't mean to imply they're bad, but you are paying extra just to have somebody else bite off the fruit of your labor.

 

 

It certainly puts up a challenge, but the difficulty is so bananas - especially during the first few levels before the player's got all of their skills unlocked - that it's much more frustrating to play with overleveled people.

Take, for instance, the amount of complaints from newbies when Queensdale events are one of the dailies. Suddenly there's a horde of flashing, flaming, flying big tops, rainbow spitting neon disco balls, and a mobile Jade Sea for good measure camping not just your events, scaling them up to oblivion, but already the spawn points of mobs as well, leaving the new guys and gals wondering "That was a weirdly peaceful escort quest."
It's obviously the perfect storm because Queensdale is both a starting zone and of the most played race, but it illustrates the point - takes exactly one veteran friend to cause you to level up purely via exploration.

 

 

Yes, the mechanics not being thrown into the player's face all at once is mostly preferable - although there certainly are people who like having all of the cards on the table, but then the Wiki exists - when it comes to processing information.

Problem with core Tyria's lack of challenge is that said knowledge has nowhere to be used, staying for a long time in the realms of pure theory.
And then OPE, THERE GOES GRAVITY with HoT's SNAP BACK TO REALITY, and it shows simply through virtually no long-time player ever claiming Maguuma's Heart is difficult, save for the HPs. It's almost always the whiplash from the core-to-HoT transition, since during the 1-80 tutorial there's no reason to utilize anything your character can do other than (pet) auto-attacks.

It's like learning any other (physical) skill solely through books: you can spend your whole life reading about backflips and still end up breaking your neck on the first try.

To me, daily days are the only real problem. Everything else is hard, but not impossible.  Just my take. You obviously feel differently.  Change the dailies so 80s only get dailies in 80 areas. That's my take on it.

[Rogue.8235]

Just here to say that one reason to not use Level 80 boosts is if you lack funds to instantly equip the character with level 80 gear.  Having under-leveled gear plus down-scaling will make the game much more difficult than it should be for new players.  If you have the gold to immediately equip your character with level 80 gear and you know what stats you want, then use it.  If you don't know what stats you want, you're not ready to use the level 80 boost.

Otherwise, using the boost doesn't really change the game too much.  You simply have access to all core traits and skills.  You won't necessarily overpower anything if you still lack the player skill to effectively use all of your tools.  You can still play all low-level content with a level 80 character.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Rogue.8235
typos

[captrowdy.9561]

2 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Just here to say that one reason to not use Level 80 boosts is if you lack funds to instantly equip the character with level 80 gear.  Having under-leveled gear plus down-scaling will make the game much more difficult than it should be for new players.  If you have the gold to immediately equip your character with level 80 gear and you know what stats you want, then use it.  If you don't know what stats you want, you're not ready to use the level 80 boost.

Otherwise, using the boost doesn't really change the game too much.  You simply have access to all core traits and skills.  You won't necessarily overpower anything if you still lack the player skill to effectively use all of your tools.  You can still play all low-level content with a level 80 character.

 

You get a full set of cele….

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Just here to say that one reason to not use Level 80 boosts is if you lack funds to instantly equip the character with level 80 gear.  Having under-leveled gear plus down-scaling will make the game much more difficult than it should be for new players.  If you have the gold to immediately equip your character with level 80 gear and you know what stats you want, then use it.  If you don't know what stats you want, you're not ready to use the level 80 boost.

Otherwise, using the boost doesn't really change the game too much.  You simply have access to all core traits and skills.  You won't necessarily overpower anything if you still lack the player skill to effectively use all of your tools.  You can still play all low-level content with a level 80 character.

 

You get a full set of exotics now, plus level 80 green/rare/exotics are cheaper than the gear less than 80.

[Dayra.7405]

Leveling to 80 in GW2 is more or less the Tutorial to the game (and your class) . The game starts when your 80.

ANet cannot simply sell an expansion and then tell you you must wait till lvl 80 before you can play it. That's why you get a booster with an expansion. Some prefer a tutorial, some like to skip it. And gw2 needs for sure a tutorial, the game isn't as easy as it first looks, the possibilities to do wrong things are numerous. Any newbie that use the booster and jump to HoT or PoF will notice in the 1tst mission.

Btw. as real veteran you don't need these lvl 80 boost, you should have enough birthday scrolls and Tomes of knowledge in your bank you bring many chars to 80, e.g. I could bring over 30 more chars to 80 immediately.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[HowlKamui.5120]

If you really are an MMO  veteran, then you know that reaching max level isn't endgame.

[Sobx.1758]

14 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

As I've said, I agree with the point, but, come to think of it, is there any gradual introduction in core Tyria to begin with?

My memory sucks, and nowadays I obviously tend to blaze through 1-80 exactly because I've seen it a thousand times, but all I can think of is that leveling pop-up window with tooltips containing a brief description of some in-game features.

Yup, in the context of this thread and the initial point I was responding to, it's not exactly about "core tyria" itself (outside of it potentially requiring the already mentioned better difficulty curve to blend with the rest of the game better) as it is about the gradual introduction to the game's mechanics (including skills/traits and all the other basic stuff we don't actively think about after we've played the game for a while -ALL of it is new to new players, ALL of it needs to be learned and not just said that "I've played wow, so I now know how to play any other mmorpg", which is specifically what I see some people say from time to time). That does relate to those pop-up windows and the fact you can then gradually try each of the new information you read or each of the newly learned skill/trait as you go. Because sure, you can blast tomes or a booster in town and just read through 40 windows at once -if you won't get bored- but at that point next to no player will try to actively incorporate it into their gameplay right away, chances are by the time they're at the 10th pop-up, they already don't know what the first one said. Gradual learning does include using each step in your gameplay and that's way easier to do without second (and third, forth, 20th, ...) pop-up window already eagerly wiggling at you to click and read it.

14 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

The skills and traits are kind of a weird topic. And, I think, another thing core Tyria teaches new players contrary to the structure of the end-game.
At 80, one of the most praised qualities of GW2's combat is being able to make a build on a mob-to-mob basis - if you can be bothered - without the game throwing some artificial 50g fees at you for a respec. A lot of trash? Shadow Flare into Collateral Damage! A legendary bounty coming up but there's nobody to play with at 4 AM? Channel the inner High Zen state with a completely new build in a second and JUST DO IT!

Sure, but for that to be true, the player would already need to know what skills/traits they have at their disposal. Which is what they learn by gradually unlocking, reading and using those elements of their build/s. So I wouldn't say at all that it's "contrary to the structure of the end-game", it just isn't end-game yet and if it was... That player still wouldn't know what they don't know.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vyr.9387]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, in the context of this thread and the initial point I was responding to, it's not exactly about "core tyria" itself (outside of it potentially requiring the already mentioned better difficulty curve to blend with the rest of the game better) as it is about the gradual introduction to the game's mechanics (including skills/traits and all the other basic stuff we don't actively think about after we've played the game for a while -ALL of it is new to new players, ALL of it needs to be learned and not just said that "I've played wow, so I now know how to play any other mmorpg", which is specifically what I see some people say from time to time). That does relate to those pop-up windows and the fact you can then gradually try each of the new information you read or each of the newly learned skill/trait as you go. Because sure, you can blast tomes or a booster in town and just read through 40 windows at once -if you won't get bored- but at that point next to no player will try to actively incorporate it into their gameplay right away, chances are by the time they're at the 10th pop-up, they already don't know what the first one said. Gradual learning does include using each step in your gameplay and that's way easier to do without second (and third, forth, 20th, ...) pop-up window already eagerly wiggling at you to click and read it.

That's considering the issue in an environment of vacuum, simply because although there might not be a learning wiggler, there most certainly is the game (= entertainment = focus) one, which is among the main reasons for suggesting an in-game tutorial in the first place - and why most countries' school systems fall flat on their faces - meaning you don't get stolen from learning a new thing by a newer thing, but by wanting to have more fun.
And that's always fighting uphill with a negative incline due to the shortsightedness of human nature.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sure, but for that to be true, the player would already need to know what skills/traits they have at their disposal. Which is what they learn by gradually unlocking, reading and using those elements of their build/s. So I wouldn't say at all that it's "contrary to the structure of the end-game", it just isn't end-game yet and if it was... That player still wouldn't know what they don't know.

I know.
My point is that using such a static learning system in a game focused on frankly absurd amounts of flexibility seems like teaching people to play the game had been at best an afterthought.
Then again, GW2 was a very different beast at launch from what I've learned over the years, so perhaps this, too, is a ripple caused by the Ancient Code's mic drop.

Which makes me wonder about that topic from a while back about unrealistic features worth skipping an expansion for, and if a proper update to the framework wouldn't be worth passing on even two.

[lezbefriends.7516]

Boosts are the biggest waste of money in this game.

 

Firstly, leveling is the most fun part of this game. After endgame, it all goes downhill as you struggle to figure out what you want to do.

 

Ironically, this is also the MMO with the easiest way to bypass leveling. You get Tomes of Knowledges and mini-level boosters easily by trying other modes. Those items grant you free levels.

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Firstly, leveling is the most fun part of this game.

No it’s not. 

[lezbefriends.7516]

Just now, yoni.7015 said:

No it’s not. 

Core was the most successful release of GW2, yes it is.

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Core was the most successful release of GW2, yes it is.

Launch was successful but a lot of people started leaving shortly after launch.   Saying a game is more successful a couple of years after it comes out, when it's a newer game than ten years later doesn't make the early game better. Plenty of people just move from game to game and never look back.  

Competition was different, people took popular ideas from this game and implemented them in other games over time. Some games that were lousy at launch got fixed, some games came out on console. All those things change the equation.  

Also, the very nature of the early game has changed, so even if what you say is true, the NPE made that a different game, substantially different even. So people can't even play the original core game. Skills don't unlock the same, atributes aren't used the same, story isn't paced the same, experience isn't earned the same, there's almost nothing about the leveling experience since the NPE as the same. 

So to say the leveling experience now is fun because it was fun to level at launch is at best a guess on your part. You may like it better, but that's all you can say.

[Sobx.1758]

23 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

That's considering the issue in an environment of vacuum, simply because although there might not be a learning wiggler, there most certainly is the game (= entertainment = focus) one, which is among the main reasons for suggesting an in-game tutorial in the first place - and why most countries' school systems fall flat on their faces - meaning you don't get stolen from learning a new thing by a newer thing, but by wanting to have more fun.
And that's always fighting uphill with a negative incline due to the shortsightedness of human nature.

That's... why I think the current version is better than what you apparently want because it enables player to read smaller portions of information inbetween having the actual playtime, where they can try out what they've just read. So I don't understand how what you've just said goes against that? I actually responded to the quote below first and it just talks slightly more about that same thing 😄

23 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

I know.
My point is that using such a static learning system in a game focused on frankly absurd amounts of flexibility seems like teaching people to play the game had been at best an afterthought.

What exactly do you mean by "such a static learning system" and what do you think the alternative should/would be?

From how I see it, the point of that learning system is giving players intertwined "read this, incorporate into gameplay by at least trying it out for a level or two and then reach another piece of information to read" which -from what I know- is by far better way to teach people than throwing a book with all the 0-80 level notes at them while they're sitting in town and read while not trying anything out in practice. Does everyone reads, tries to understand and incorporate into their gameplay everything that pops out? Obviously not, you can't force anyone to do it, there's no solution to that unless you come out with even more static learning system saying "press this or you're not going to the next learning room cell zone". Duh, if someone wants to skip that whole -imo better- bitesized gradual learning experience, they already can by using the booster/s and then they can read the wiki for a week if that's what they prefer.

When you're talking about learning experience going against the lvl 80 gameplay because it's all about flexibility, all I can see it as is trying to tell the student to "solve this problem using appropriate method" without having them try and understand each of the methods first. That's why I don't think it goes against the game's flexibility at all, it's just part of the learning experience.

[Vyr.9387]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's... why I think the current version is better than what you apparently want because it enables player to read smaller portions of information inbetween having the actual playtime, where they can try out what they've just read. So I don't understand how what you've just said goes against that? I actually responded to the quote below first and it just talks slightly more about that same thing 😄

 

I didn't mean it in any antagonistic way - actually think we agree on pretty much everything when it comes to how things currently stand.
What I'm saying is that if we wanted to tackle the underlying issues we'd probably have to change a lot more than tutorial presentation.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What exactly do you mean by "such a static learning system" and what do you think the alternative should/would be?

If you make a new character and go through the leveling process the classical way Stabzero said they're choosing, you'll get a pop-up each level, some of which include a "this exists" line with a bit more info on mouse-over (or whatever it is).
What you do with said info the core game leaves completely up to your own discretion. Can't say exactly how many people simply pass on it, but judging by all the screams and tears coming out of Verdant Brink the count is bound to be decent.
During the 2-80 journey, the vast majority of stuff dies to random button presses. A champion murders you solely through the damage output you simply can't outheal at that point, but those are [Group] events, so unless they're trivialized by a zerg of people already doing it, you learn to stay away.
Rinse and repeat, and in a couple of hours you're at 80 with absolutely no comprehension of what's happening or why it's happening or why is that guy riding a giant plushie turtle.

By always choosing the path of least resistance, as the 'verse is keen on doing, this entire journey teaches you only as much as you want to learn, which, for people who don't derive some degree of delight from acquire knowledge, means next to nothing.
The system is static because it doesn't care, doesn't entice you to move. Like a manual worker with a title of "teacher" who comes into the classroom, reads a couple of pages the curriculum demands out loud, gives all the students a couple of likewise-dictated exercises, and leaves, pretending to have taught anybody anything.

Conversely, the best approach the Neo-ANet have already got relatively well-fleshed out in this very game: End of Dragons.
The story takes you almost immediately through a training course with all the basic mechanics, which is then utilized shortly after to get into the Aetherblade hideout when disabling the hardlight barrier through combo fields, and breaking Ivan's Defiance to cause him to start taking damage again.
The player can then immediately see the cause and effect - that there's a tangible advantage to using the tools the game provides.
Optimally, there would also be all the focus-catching shenanigans like pausing the fight to explain a particular mechanic or introduce people to meta things like build or weapon swapping by breaking the fourth wall in other ways, but, considering even the end credits look like the finishing touches of a primary school project missing a deadline, perhaps it just can't be done. And I'm honestly starting to despise this excuse.

But yeah, a good tutorial already exists. The sole problem is that it's in the third expansion, not at level 1(-80) where it belongs.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

From how I see it, the point of that learning system is giving players intertwined "read this, incorporate into gameplay by at least trying it out for a level or two and then reach another piece of information to read" which -from what I know- is by far better way to teach people than throwing a book with all the 0-80 level notes at them while they're sitting in town and read while not trying anything out in practice. Does everyone reads, tries to understand and incorporate into their gameplay everything that pops out? Obviously not, you can't force anyone to do it, there's no solution to that unless you come out with even more static learning system saying "press this or you're not going to the next learning room cell zone". Duh, if someone wants to skip that whole -imo better- bitesized gradual learning experience, they already can by using the booster/s and then they can read the wiki for a week if that's what they prefer.

Again, the issue isn't the gradual nature - can't imagine many people learning by devouring six terabytes of data in seven seconds and immediately understanding every connection to the point of 42 - but the lack of necessity to use the knowledge.
You Yourself said that a vital part of gradual learning is practice, and leaving that completely up to people always runs the risk of only catching the eye of those who'd already be ready to open the Wiki for everything they don't understand, anyway.

Thus, the forced roadblocks are necessary to transform a theoretical piece of information into an action the player is capable and comfortable using when needed.
Doesn't mean it has to be done with a whip, but that's why video games are such a powerful medium, and not making use of all it has to offer falls primarily on the developers' heads.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

When you're talking about learning experience going against the lvl 80 gameplay because it's all about flexibility, all I can see it as is trying to tell the student to "solve this problem using appropriate method" without having them try and understand each of the methods first. That's why I don't think it goes against the game's flexibility at all, it's just part of the learning experience.

Yeah, read You the first time around, too 😄
And I see where You're coming from - can't expect somebody to run if they're not aware they have legs - but I'm talking about the effects of the core experience('s teachings) being so vastly different to what happens at the endgame that it's actively detrimental to learn from, as the majority of things you get used to fly out of the window right in the first expansion (or even already in the revamped parts of S1).