Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

that's just wvw lol, it's really not specific to any spec. i get it as berserker all the time when i go flip camps for tickets.

do you know how many times i've been accused of hacking because i jumped on a no-port spot and the (thief, it's always a thief) player couldn't figure it out?

big siege modes like that have always been full of bad players looking to dunk on even worse ones. it's true in every single game that has a mode like that. nobody wants an actual fight, they wanna run over some pve player.
hilarious game mode tbh

go roam as ele and see for yourself, m8. It IS ele specific at this point.

You can play fullberseker glasscannon Dagger/dagger Coreele and people will tell you that you are carried by your build. But when you clap them with Celeharb, which is still on day1 EoD release balancing, everything is fair and square.

Go and test it... no matter what build you play, people will tell you that your carried by elementalist. Even when you play 13kHP core ele with dagger/dagger.

Which is sad. some of us play those builds for a long time... they didnt get any buffs... but all of a sudden their noobish. I cant wait for the time, when they butcher catalyst and sceptre, so i can play my build, which is neither using catalyst, nor is it using sceptre, without being called a noob....  People work in mysterious ways.

Cata in combination with sceptre overperforming sheds a bad light on the whole of elemenatlist.... and it succs.

Dear Anet, please nerf ele.... Ele mains know how to deal with playing a bad class..  we are used to it...

I literally stopped playing for now, because almost every single fight, ends with an insult. I dont take that stuff personally, but the whole attitude towards ele atm, makes playing it unsatisfying to say the least.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

56 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

go roam as ele and see for yourself, m8. It IS ele specific at this point.

You can play fullberseker glasscannon Dagger/dagger Coreele and people will tell you that you are carried by your build. But when you clap them with Celeharb, everything is fair and square.

Go and test it... no matter what build you play, people will tell you that your carried by your build. Even when you play 13kHP core ele with dagger/dagger.

Which is sad. some of us play those builds for a long time... they didnt get any buffs... but all of a sudden their noobish. I cant wait for the time, when they butcher catalyst and sceptre, so i can play my build, which is neither using catalyst, nor is it using sceptre, without being called a noob....  People work in mysterious ways.

Cata in combination with sceptre overperforming sheds a bad light on the whole of elemenatlist.... and it succs.

Dear Anet, please nerf ele.... Ele mains know how to deal with playing a bad class..  we are used to it...

I literally stopped playing for now, because every single fight, ends with an insult. Even when you rofltstomp someone with 13kHP Coreele.

I think most of the anti ele and anti warrior chatter lately stems from what you were experiencing. People aren't used to them being good, much less high performing so they lash out.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Arheundel.6451]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

go roam as ele and see for yourself, m8. It IS ele specific at this point.

You can play fullberseker glasscannon Dagger/dagger Coreele and people will tell you that you are carried by your build. But when you clap them with Celeharb, which is still on day1 EoD release balancing, everything is fair and square.

Go and test it... no matter what build you play, people will tell you that your carried by elementalist. Even when you play 13kHP core ele with dagger/dagger.

Which is sad. some of us play those builds for a long time... they didnt get any buffs... but all of a sudden their noobish. I cant wait for the time, when they butcher catalyst and sceptre, so i can play my build, which is neither using catalyst, nor is it using sceptre, without being called a noob....  People work in mysterious ways.

Cata in combination with sceptre overperforming sheds a bad light on the whole of elemenatlist.... and it succs.

Dear Anet, please nerf ele.... Ele mains know how to deal with playing a bad class..  we are used to it...

I literally stopped playing for now, because almost every single fight, ends with an insult. I dont take that stuff personally, but the whole attitude towards ele atm, makes playing it unsatisfying to say the least.

Flawled logic.....

I have been stating the same thing for years now on the ele subforum especially, balance goes both ways: if you can get results on one class by pressing A and B only....I want same gameplay option on all professions.

And when somebody playing a druid..or a renegade...or a mirage/chrono/virtuoso comes on the forum and cry about catalyst..all I think is :"go kitten yourself!" . If I can press 2 with a longbow, go stealth-heal and come back...easy peazy lemon squizi on a ranger while playing druid....who are people to say the same faceroll gameplay should not be applied to ele? If I can precast GS/hammer 2 on a guardian and then teleport on you from where you can't even see?...why is that then a problem on an untamed?

If I can stun/daze you while stealthed  on a thief/mesmer....why is that a problem if I stunlock you with a hammer warrior?

It's all love and jokes when the faceroll option is limited to the profession they love to play...when that faceroll option is extended to another profession..all hell break loses and Anet sucks at balance.

This brings me to your post now....why the kitten should only  ele be forced to go hard mode to accomplish anything when other professions can literally go chimpanzee level of effort to have fun in this game? You want people to play piano on ele to reach as high as 6k dgm maybe...when other professions can get same numbers maybe by farting...while backpedaling?

P.S I played ranger for 6k hrs, warrior and guardian for 1.5k hrs and other professions for 100 hrs or so, I know exactly what faceroll gameplay means and scepter catalyst is a clear example.....but so are dozen other things in this game, remove one...then we remove the kitten all of them

Edited January 25, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Project exa.3204]

Returning to the game after several months & this was exactly the post I was looking for. I don't think I've seen really anything dominate matches as much as cata seems to in today's games. I couldn't understand why either, until I realized the change to Dragons Tooth unlocked all kinds of new builds that collectively break the class. 

 

Nerfing Dragon's Tooth probably wouldn't be enough, but I'll outline my thoughts on what I think makes it pretty broken on its own now.

1. Attaches to the target. The small radius doesn't even matter anymore.
2. Has a 2.0 power coefficient in PvP with 734 base damage and 10s burning?!
3. Has a 3/4 second cast time with an 8 second cooldown. 
4. Combo finisher: Blast.

Any two of these things would probably even be fine, but not all four. At the very least that coefficient needs to be dropped significantly or there needs to be a bigger tradeoff. 2x as long cooldown, not attaching to target again, 1/2 the burning, single target instead of AoE if it has to attach to someone, remove the blast finisher....ANYTHING really. 

-Eros of Ascalon

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yes, we can see this.

The concept of balance completely eludes you ....

Defending a build or class....you'd think after a decade, people would be able to understand the basis of adaptability and investment....but that's wishful thinking reading your comments, not counting your very obvious lack of reading comprehension 

[Sahne.6950]

9 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Flawled logic.....

I have been stating the same thing for years now on the ele subforum especially, balance goes both ways: if you can get results on one class by pressing A and B only....I want same gameplay option on all professions.

And when somebody playing a druid..or a renegade...or a mirage/chrono/virtuoso comes on the forum and cry about catalyst..all I think is :"go kitten yourself!" . If I can press 2 with a longbow, go stealth-heal and come back...easy peazy lemon squizi on a ranger while playing druid....who are people to say the same faceroll gameplay should not be applied to ele? If I can precast GS/hammer 2 on a guardian and then teleport on you from where you can't even see?...why is that then a problem on an untamed?

If I can stun/daze you while stealthed  on a thief/mesmer....why is that a problem if I stunlock you with a hammer warrior?

It's all love and jokes when the faceroll option is limited to the profession they love to play...when that faceroll option is extended to another profession..all hell break loses and Anet sucks at balance.

This brings me to your post now....why the kitten should only  ele be forced to go hard mode to accomplish anything when other professions can literally go chimpanzee level of effort to have fun in this game? You want people to play piano on ele to reach as high as 6k dgm maybe...when other professions can get same numbers maybe by farting...while backpedaling?

P.S I played ranger for 6k hrs, warrior and guardian for 1.5k hrs and other professions for 100 hrs or so, I know exactly what faceroll gameplay means and scepter catalyst is a clear example.....but so are dozen other things in this game, remove one...then we remove the kitten all of them

I think its funny, that regardless what i write, you will always vouch for the exact opposite 😄

 

You were talking about, "when  X can do that.... why do people cry when Y can do the same"  And you are right with that....somewhat...  BUT

The real problem begins, when a certain class can Burst like a soulbeast, has mobility thats close to the level of a thief, the ammount of defenses like a Virtuoso or vindicator, and the ammount of resistance like a Defensebreaker, to top it all off, an yet unheard of level of Stabilityuptime...  and all that while being "nonprojectile ranged" (which means its bypassing reflects and Shockauras at the same time... the utility from the current meta support.).

Currently sceptre catalyst is on par with alot of other specs, in alot of its areas. It does what other professions do, thats right, so far i agree with you! 

But it does what all of those other professions are known for... packed into a single build, without any obvious drawbacks.

 Most builds have a drawback somewhere... Herald lacks cleanse, Tempest is vulnerable to CC and condivomit, Thief cant finish 1v1´s in a timely manner... Virtuoso is either lacking damage/or lacking cleanse,  yada yada....   Most builds have to give something up to really shine in their specific department.....   But sceptre cata? What is sceptre cata bad at?

There is no reason why one would play anything other than Sceptrecata and Spb currently, other than "i like the others more". If you are seeking for performance only, the only reasonable answer on what to play would be sceptre Catalyst and defensebreaker.

And thats the problem. And that is exactly what we are seeing in the MAT´s aswell.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

11 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

What is sceptre cata bad at?

Glad you brought it up.

Literally the only things it can't do are:

1. No teleports that go through walls.
2. Doesn't have a Ranger pet or a Jade Mech.
3. Doesn't have a Function Gyro.
4. Can't shatter its Elemental Summons.
5. Doesn't have any effects like Portal Entre.
6. Has no deep boon removal like a Spellbreaker.
7. Has no access to stealth or reveal.

Not only does it have access to every other mechanic that the game provides, but it is largely outperforming other classes at nearly every other mechanic.

[Equinox.1463]

On 1/25/2023 at 2:49 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

I will just shortly mention a observation i have made.... under a YT video i saw someone saying, that ele is cursed.

Keep in mind, this refers to WvW and WvW only.

 

He was roaming with elementalist... i dont remember the exact number anymore, but it was something like 7 out of 10 people that he killed, whispered him, that ele is a noobtrashclass and needs a hefty nerf.

He was discouraged to play ele by this and then jumped on a celeharbinger and quickly managed to get some 1v3s while facerolling over the keyboard. It was overall alot stronger and he would score better results and more 1vX.  

But... He didnt receive a single whisper on Harbinger. 

So i jumped into WvW and i tried the same... i played some ele.... the chat was cooking.....  jumped on Harbinger which IS EVEN STRONGER FOR ROAMING......    silence...... nothing... no whispers.....  back to ele -> chat is cooking "noob" "noob" "nerf this kitten".....    

People are simply used to ele being garbage, and the second its not, people loose their minds.

 

Ele is uberstronk, no denying that,... but the hate in the community is disproportionally. It needs a nerf... but its at a point, where people ignore everything else and just go "nurf ele till it dead"... you can roflstomp them with celeharbinger and its fine for them... but ohh god forbid you kill them with a FreshairWeaver....a build that is more fragile and harder to play..... then your a noob, that is carried by ele.

You will notice it, by the confuseds that will be right ⬇️ here, altho i said nothing about "dont nerf ele" 

 

To me this means absolutely nothing as Celestial stats have been removed from PvP. Before adding more confusion to this discussion, please stop using some random example in another game mode to justify a class being overperforming at the highest levels of play in PvP. The dynamics, the builds on the meta, and the overall gameplay is hugely different in-between PvP and WvW, if you must know, as you can build anything and be decent in WvW. Good luck getting higher than g1 with anything Harbinger other than its meta builds - and it's not overperforming on the same standard as Catalyst is.

 

I'm questioning the pertinence of WvW comments in the PvP threads.

[Kuma.1503]

I'd like to point out that in the last balance stream, CMC stated that he was worried about the implications of latch-on dragons' tooth and he was going to be monitoring it in PvP to see if it breaks the game. 

These scepter changes are experimental, and I'm expecting them to take a second pass on them soon. 

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. 

I do hope they keep it viable after toning it down though. 

[Sahne.6950]

On 1/25/2023 at 8:49 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

You will notice it, by the confused comment from Equinox that will be right ⬇️ here, altho i said nothing about "dont nerf ele"

8 hours ago, Equinox.1463 said:

stop using some random example in another game mode to justify a class being overperforming at the highest levels of play in PvP.

 Justify!? What are you talking about? If you would read closely, you can see that i am by no means doing this. I am doing the exact opposite. 

On 1/26/2023 at 9:01 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

The real problem begins, when a certain class can Burst like a soulbeast, has mobility thats close to the level of a thief, the ammount of defenses like a Virtuoso or vindicator, and the ammount of resistance like a Defensebreaker, to top it all off, an yet unheard of level of Stabilityuptime...  and all that while being "nonprojectile ranged" (which means its bypassing reflects and Shockauras at the same time... the utility from the current meta support.).

Currently sceptre catalyst is on par with alot of other specs, in alot of its areas. It does what other professions do, thats right, so far i agree with you! 

But it does what all of those other professions are known for... packed into a single build, without any obvious drawbacks.

 Most builds have a drawback somewhere... Herald lacks cleanse, Tempest is vulnerable to CC and condivomit, Thief cant finish 1v1´s in a timely manner... Virtuoso is either lacking damage/or lacking cleanse,  yada yada....   Most builds have to give something up to really shine in their specific department.....   But sceptre cata? What is sceptre cata bad at?

There is no reason why one would play anything other than Sceptrecata and Spb currently, other than "i like the others more". If you are seeking for performance only, the only reasonable answer on what to play would be sceptre Catalyst and defensebreaker.

And thats the problem. And that is exactly what we are seeing in the MAT´s aswell.

Cata in combination with sceptre overperforming sheds a bad light on the whole of elemenatlist.... and it succs.

Dear Anet, please nerf ele.... Ele mains know how to deal with playing a bad class.. we are used to it...

I literally stopped playing for now, because almost every single fight, ends with an insult. I dont take that stuff personally, but the whole attitude towards ele atm, makes playing it unsatisfying to say the least.

I am literally Vouching for nerfs, because the whole Elementalist class, regardless if you use sceptre or catalyst at all, is facing a sh it storm, because sceptre cata is unacceptably overperforming in spvp.

But all your reading is: "dont nurf ele, because wvw blablabla🤪". 

1/10 reading comprehension

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I'd like to point out that in the last balance stream, CMC stated that he was worried about the implications of latch-on dragons' tooth and he was going to be monitoring it in PvP to see if it breaks the game.

I think we figured that out after about the first 3 days the patched it, it was glaringly obvious that it was breaking the game.

We don't need actual game breaking mechanics to go on for 2 to 4 months before fixing. If they want to take the "stir the bucket" approach to balancing to keep the game fresh, they really need to be on the hotfixing. This Elementalist bull**** has created another exodus era where a lot of people that I know personally have once again, left the game.

Any time they allow massive garbage design like this to go on, it creates exodus where players just start leaving man.

Catalyst is actually so broken right now, that it's legit starting to feel dishonorable when people chose to play it.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Catalyst is actually so broken right now, that it's legit starting to feel dishonorable when people chose to play it.

AMEN. We get literally insulted xD

i quit for now, because i am on the other side... playing feels unrewarding

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I mean we are talking about a new level of busted stupid that's going on here with Catalyst.

Every kid in top Gold 3 who runs Catalyst is now as difficult to deal with as Grimjack was 12 months ago.

With that statement I have nothing else to say in this thread.

Here is hoping for fast & adequate patching because when they allow this kind of stuff to go on, it actually works against their stir the bucket ideology to keep the game fresh. Stupid stuff like this gets stale really really fast and serves only to drive players away from the game.

[Equinox.1463]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:30 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

 Justify!? What are you talking about? If you would read closely, you can see that i am by no means doing this. I am doing the exact opposite. 

I am literally Vouching for nerfs, because the whole Elementalist class, regardless if you use sceptre or catalyst at all, is facing a sh it storm, because sceptre cata is unacceptably overperforming in spvp.

But all your reading is: "dont nurf ele, because wvw blablabla🤪". 

1/10 reading comprehension

Well, to be fair, you didn't read my post much either - as I was questionning the pertinence of your comment from a World versus World sttandpoint. But we do agree that Catalyst and Ele is overperforming to some degree - so let's leave it to that and keep the veiled insults for our own mind ^^

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Playing Catalyst is officially just dishonorable after the MAT.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Out of 24 visible threads on page 1 of this subforum, 12 of them are about Catalyst/Ele:

Remove catalyst - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

5 cata win mat - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Catalyst ruins the game - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Remove dmg from cata spheres complete - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

9 out of 10 games have pepega Scepter Catalysts or/and Defense Spellbreakers - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dragon's Tooth is a problem - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

fix cata. - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

I'm Loving FA Catalyst, this is the right direction for the game - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elementalist - Whats the real problem? - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Cata, Temp, Untamed, Spellbreaker, Vindi (feels like the only choices we have) - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

I wonder if a certain person, who complained about engi ruining pvp, is happy now? - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

There are 4 about Spellbreakers, 3 about poor match quality in general, and 5 misc threads.

Even when other things were hot-fixed in the past, we never seen this much discussion around those topics. Why is this being allowed to happen? Is it really that difficult to tend to critical game breaking issues?

Edited January 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Arheundel.6451]

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Out of 24 visible threads on page 1 of this subforum, 12 of them are about Catalyst/Ele:

Remove catalyst - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

5 cata win mat - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Catalyst ruins the game - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Remove dmg from cata spheres complete - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

9 out of 10 games have pepega Scepter Catalysts or/and Defense Spellbreakers - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dragon's Tooth is a problem - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

fix cata. - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

I'm Loving FA Catalyst, this is the right direction for the game - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elementalist - Whats the real problem? - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Cata, Temp, Untamed, Spellbreaker, Vindi (feels like the only choices we have) - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

I wonder if a certain person, who complained about engi ruining pvp, is happy now? - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums

There are 4 about Spellbreakers, 3 about poor match quality in general, and 5 misc threads.

Even when other things were hot-fixed in the past, we never seen this much discussion around those topics. Why is this being allowed to happen? Is it really that difficult to tend to critical game breaking issues?

I believe if you make another 13 nerf threads about ele.....not even NCsoft will be able to ignore you! Go for it Trevor!

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 1/30/2023 at 7:37 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

I believe if you make another 13 nerf threads about ele.....not even NCsoft will be able to ignore you! Go for it Trevor!

There are like 2 or 3 new threads as of today. Now we have like nearly 15 threads on the first page are discussing Ele. It's actually amazingly unprecedented attention that Catalyst is getting right now. They should have just hotfixed this on the 3rd day after the patch when everyone pointed out that it was absolutely game breaking.

I mean there was never defenses or arguments about this. Everyone agreed that it was completely busted.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Burnfall.9573]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:41 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@greedywholesome.9081 Your post inspired to me to give a bit more serious feedback. Before we begin, let's look at a realistic list of performance values amongst different classes/builds and try to nail down exactly why they are performing at those levels, what is allowing them to perform at that level or what is keeping them down?

1. Spellbreaker (S maybe S+) tier - Warrior/Berserker/Bladesworn (B+) tier.
2. Willbender (A-) tier - Guardian Support (A-) tier - Dragonhunter (B+) tier - Firebrand (C+) tier.
3. Vindicator (S) tier - Herald (A) tier - Revenant/Renegade (B-) tier.
4. Untamed (A+) tier - Soulbeast/Druid (A-) tier - Ranger (B) tier.
5. Daredevil (A-) tier - Deadeye/Specter (B+) tier - Thief (C+) tier.
6. Holosmith (A+) tier - Scrapper (A-) tier - Mechanist (B+ tier) - Engineer (C+) tier.
7. Harbinger (A-) tier - Reaper (B+ or A-) tier - Necromancer (B+) tier - Scourge (C) tier.
8. Virtuoso/Chronomancer (A-) tier - Mirage/Mesmer (B+) tier.
9. Catalyst (S++) tier - Weaver/Tempest (S- or at worst A+) tier - Elementalist (A-) tier. If we were to revert the dragon tooth mechanical overhaul, we are still looking at Catalyst (S or higher) tier - Weaver/Tempest (A- at worst) - Elementalist (B-).

It is important to note that reverting that scepter buff would not change the tiers of any other class other than Elementalist. The other classes were performing at the same levels they are now as they were before the scepter buff. All the scepter buff did, was seriously over-buff Elementalist into proportions much much higher than any other class. In other words, this problem with Elementalist is not a case of "We need to buff other classes so counters exist for Ele again" but rather that "There already are counters for Ele but Ele has been over-buffed into such ridiculous proportions that it is able to ignore those counters." The problem is the Ele, not the other classes around it. Elementalist needs to be handed significant nerfing.

As we can see from this generally accurate list of tier ratings that I'm sure not too many people would disagree with, Cata/Ele - Spell - Vindi - arguably Untamed, are the only classes exhibiting great overperformance values. The rest of the classes/builds in this patching are actually pretty well balanced outside of these outliers. If we tried to do what some people are saying in this thread: "Buff Specter so Ele has a counter again", do you have any idea how much they'd need to buff Specter for it to be able to contest current Catalyst? With the way dragon tooth works now, Specter wouldn't be able to get away from the damage in the same way it can vs. other classes. It would still be getting nuked, just like everyone else. We'd need to give it back ALL of its original shroud bar for it to even begin to be able to contest current Catalyst. And if we did even just that, Specter then becomes at least an (S) tier again, right alongside of Spellbreaker & Vindicator, and then we have another oppressive build that helps push more and more non (S) tier classes/builds out of viability. So what's the answer? Well these people would say again "make more buffs so we have counters again" ect ect so on and so forth, and all this does, is lead to enormous power creep, which GW2 desperately does not need.

There are serious problems in the long run of continuing to buff and buff and buff, which actually ends up creating issues where we lose class identity / job roles / and even counters, when every class is so saturated with random effects that everyone is spitting every boon and doing everything that every other class does, and when that happens the idea of natural counters begins to diminish. <- At this point balance actually becomes harder to maintain. Imagine in an environment where only one class had stealth and only one class had reveal. Obviously the class with reveal is going to counter the class with stealth, but what is interesting about this is that even if the class with reveal was considered (C-) tier and the class with stealth was considered (A+) tier, the (C-) class with reveal would STILL be the counter to (A+) stealther because he is the only one who can do it and so he maintains a type of position within the intraclass dynamic. However, if every class had reveal and every class had stealth, and if every class was considered (A+) tier, as soon as one of the classes dropped to (A) tier, it would immediately be considered no longer viable for serious play. This is because there is no longer class identify or job roles because everyone is generally doing everything that everyone else does, and then in the end, it just results in who's pushing out the bigger numbers. All the while keep in mind that natural class counters in this regard to stealth vs reveal, have disappeared entirely.

I really want to stress this point ^ to anyone who is reading. Up until recently, Thief had always been a great example of what I'm talking about here. It was always the fastest class for +ing & decapping, and as such, no matter how weak it was in combat, it still always played an important role in the competitive meta because it had true class identity. It was the only class that really did that job properly. Due to this effect of class identity, it makes it easier to keep Thief balanced because no matter what happens, he is still always playable because he is the only one that can do his job role correctly. But now after mobility creep, we have most of the classes in the game able to keep up with the Thief in +ing and decapping. The Thief lost its class identity and now its weaknesses really show. For the first time ever, Thief is not in the meta. For the first time ever, it is a complex discussion to figure out how to balance Thief. This is because everything does everything now, and as soon one class does everything just a little bit better than another class, it pushes everything else out of viability. Do you see what I'm talking about? Let me make this very clear with an extreme example:

Imagine that every class in the game was doing the exact same thing, mechanically, mobility wise, power damage, condi damage, healing, CCs, everything, literally everything is virtually the same output amongst all classes. But then one day a patch drops where one particular class is for some reason granted +15% output to every category. We will now see games full of that one class and nothing else, because there actually isn't a reason to play anything else. However, if every class had very specific class identity & job roles that no other class could do, you could do the same exact thing and buff that one particular class's output by +15% in every category, and it would barely change the class representation at all, because it would still be necessary to run other classes that performed other job roles that had unique ablities. Does it make sense now?

Any game of this genre is much more difficult to balance when everything does everything and there is no class identity or unique job roles. This all came to be this way because of a decade's worth of power creep. We do not need more power creep. It is seriously ruining the game.

 

Now that I've made myself clear and well explained the above, let's really evaluate the class tier list. We must first look at the fact that GW2 has received so much power creep that most classes are doing most things now. We are like a step or two away from that theoretical scenario of "every class is actually doing every single thing". So these ideas about "let's buff more things so more counters exist again" is not the best route to take without creating further complications in the future that are worse than the ones we have now. GW2 does not need more power creep.

Since we are in a state where most things are doing everything, natural class counters are almost entirely diminished at this point, save a few things that still hold true. Thus, the interactions between the classes/builds and why they sit at certain tiers, are much less about "its counter currently being strong" and a lot more about "its numbers are just too small or something's numbers are just way too big". In previous years of GW2, before massive power creep, there was indeed a jigsaw puzzle to figure out meta to meta, for why certain things were in play to leverage and counter each other, and what would happen to change everything if a certain unique job role class were to suddenly be gone from the current meta. But as of 2023, it is not hard to figure out that the once complex dynamic we used to have between classes with more identity & more defined job roles, has denominated down to "the classes in the meta are the classes shoving out the highest numbers" end of story. This is because everything pretty much does everything now, with very few exceptions.

Anyone who really plays GW2 pvp avidly, would know how all the match ups go. If you actually take the time to sit and consider "How would it change the meta or the tier listings if said given class suddenly disappeared?" and really think about it, you'll see that we are no longer in an era where one class archetype coming in or leaving means everything changing, because nothing is distinct enough in class identity/job role/countering to have that kind of impact anymore. The larger impact of what is viable and what isn't, is all within which class is pumping out the bigger numbers, due to every class now virtually being able to do every thing, with so few exceptions.

Take a look at Spellbreaker. If we delete it from the game, would it change the tier performance of any of those classes? No, we'd just see a rise in Vindi/Cata representation. Maybe the War mains might swap to Untamed or Holosmith to better compete against the Vindi/Cata, and although the representation of Untame/Holo goes up, their tier list performance vs. the Vindi/Cata would not. Take a look at anything else in this current 2023 patching and you'll see the same kinds of logical rational results. The uniqueness of class identity & job roles is almost completely diminished so there are no more complex ways to look at buffing or nerfing in terms of what counters what or what job role might be too dominant. No, we're just looking at what classes are pushing out the larger numbers. Nowadays in these modern patchings, there are no complex results of changes in tier listings other than the class that gets buffed goes up in tier listings and the class that gets nerfed goes down in tier listings.

Thus I must stress my point again, that this this problem with Cata/Ele is not an issue with the balance around it, it is an issue with Ele being way way too strong. Cata/Ele needs significant hard nerfing, and after that is done, Spellbreaker and Vindi and some things on Untamed are also clearly overperforming and need nerfs. But Cata/Ele is currently at an absurdly ridiculous level of overperformance.

 

If it were up to me, if I could command a balance patch tomorrow, I'd do these things to take care of glaringly obvious outlier problems, and then in some later patch we could discuss more fine tuning:

1. Leave Warrior buffs alone. War/Bers/Blade needed it. Spellbreaker is the problem. Consult the War mains for good ways to bring it down a notch or two without ruining the class.
2. Vindicator needs to lose either DPS or sustain to bring it down a notch. Consult the Rev mains for a proper way to go about it.
3. Cata/Ele needs substantial nerfing. This issue has become very complex so consult all the Ele mains for proper ways to do this without tearing it apart, but I do stress that it needs substantial nerfing, not just shaves.
4. Untamed, as a Ranger main I can confidently stay that this class need two things nerfed. 1) The teleport skill needs the 50% reduction in ICD removed. This skill should never be operating on a 20s ICD, it should always have the full 40s ICD. 2) Nature's Binding is way too strong vs. classes/builds who have little or no access to stability. NB needs a tell, a cast time, and a larger radius on the effect so there is counterplay when being trapped.
5. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE. Everything else is actually relatively and strangely balanced right now. In an environment without Cata - Spell - Vindi - Untame, the other classes have a really good dynamic amongst each other. Some specializations and core classes arguably could very small tweaks, but like I said before, I'd worry about that after fixing this massively outlier super classes that are quite frankly ruining the game play right now.

"This is because there is no longer class identify or job roles because everyone is generally doing everything that everyone else does..."

 

This is the beginning and the root cause which started the complete chain of events that led to all Guild Wars 2 balance problems in the first place.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:35 AM, Burnfall.9573 said:

"This is because there is no longer class identify or job roles because everyone is generally doing everything that everyone else does..."

 

This is the beginning and the root cause which started the complete chain of events that led to all Guild Wars 2 balance problems in the first place.

 

^ all truth

[Saiyan.1704]

On 2/5/2023 at 8:35 AM, Burnfall.9573 said:

This is the beginning and the root cause which started the complete chain of events that led to all Guild Wars 2 balance problems in the first place.

Why is it that when ever there's this... major balance problem... that it's almost always 3 or 4+ Ele meta builds within the same AT team?

When we had a 3man Willbender issue on an mAT team or a 5man specter comp within an mAT team, they were nerfed so darn fast that I barely remember them being a thing to begin with. But when Ele was already meta and receives significant buffs to an already strong class, it feels like we endured 3 full seasons of it. If this thread could be summed up in a single sentence, I would say there's a veil of biasness with this class in its history in that when things are broken this class really makes it apparent.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[Sahne.6950]

Elementalist is simply a class played by the best players. And the best players tend to win.  

They even win the patchnotes/cadence

Edited February 8, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:35 PM, Burnfall.9573 said:

"This is because there is no longer class identify or job roles because everyone is generally doing everything that everyone else does..."

 

This is the beginning and the root cause which started the complete chain of events that led to all Guild Wars 2 balance problems in the first place.

Classes did have identity in core (maybe not perfect but they still had identities) and elite specs were sold to us as side grades that allowed a class to be better at something it was maybe not so good at before and switching up the play style.
Dragon Hunter was supposed to let guardians be more damage and spike focused
Chrono was supposed to enhance a mesmer's team fight potential
Tempest was supposed to enhance elementalists support side and slow down attunement swaps

What actually happened was ANet gave but didn't retune or take away.

Dragon Hunter was flat out better than core guard and retained all it's ally support on top of enhanced virtues.
Chrono had F5 to double cast anything and alacrity to speed up cool downs making it just plain better at everything.
Tempest was a flat upgrade (at the start) where all overloads were 100% worth waiting for and using and the damage was insane.

Some might say the trade off is not taking a core line that competes but this was only a trade off for some classes later. Once tempest overloads were nerfed to be less damage and more support it became the best example of what elite specs should be but most elite specs even now are just bloated and lack the laser like focus on what it needs to be. Instead they try to be everything.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Elementalist is simply a class played by the best players. And the best players tend to win.

Feels more like:

"Elementalist is a class favored by the lead pvp balance dev and the lead pvp balance dev likes to buff Elementalist".

[Lakerduck.1895]

On 1/27/2023 at 5:30 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I think we figured that out after about the first 3 days the patched it, it was glaringly obvious that it was breaking the game.

We don't need actual game breaking mechanics to go on for 2 to 4 months before fixing. If they want to take the "stir the bucket" approach to balancing to keep the game fresh, they really need to be on the hotfixing. This Elementalist bull**** has created another exodus era where a lot of people that I know personally have once again, left the game.

Any time they allow massive garbage design like this to go on, it creates exodus where players just start leaving man.

Catalyst is actually so broken right now, that it's legit starting to feel dishonorable when people chose to play it.

I want to know the update about the current player base since the Catalyst firestorm has shifted the PvP landscape entirely thanks to the BS of the 5-player French Catalyst squad dominating the MATs and the massive prominence of the elementalists in championship winning MAT teams recently. My brother doesn't play much GW2 now since he's also frustrated by the Catalyst meta (same as me) and his Willbender doesn't get much love since ANet doesn't seem want to improve the Power DPS Willbender especially the off-hand sword in all game modes. Also, he told me that he gets wrecked by Catalysts and other PvP meta professions. I have noticed that there is something wrong with the Catalysts. Some of their attacks seemed are not telegraph and are hard to react. I was completely destroyed by a Catalyst and I was getting hit everywhere and not even seeing anything that hits me. Is there a mechanic on what makes a Catalyst difficult to read, perhaps, not telegraphed? Fortunately, I am still around playing this game since I finally reached Lv. 100 in fractals today, did some successful raid trainings and strike missions with the guild, doing the usual meta events, dailies, and Dragonstorm, and soloed T4 Mai Trin boss fractal. I'm really a main PvE player, but being put to a spot of playing PvP since the dailies are there. I honestly wish there are more PvE dailies so I don't have to play PvP at all. Unfortunately, the unbalanced nature of PvP can make more players leave the game. I want to see some of the statistics or anything related to current number of players after this current patch. I imagine how the new players got destroyed by the Catalysts and then decide to leave the game because they got blown out and/or shutout. Being dominated in PvP is a waste of time and it's similar to not making a progress by not playing the game. It's like the newer players get punished by the power fest of Catalysts and other meta professions by simply playing PvP and trying out other competitive game modes.