Feb 3 preview for rev

[Obtena.7952]

16 hours ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

It is the Power dps spec of rev since you got herald for support, ren for condi, and vindi for power but one thing i do agree on is alliance is the reason the class is held back it needs more in the kit then it currently has is to weak for a dps spec with trade offs for no reason other then alliance existing blue side i mean it has invisible trade offs for a dps spec that doesnt even make use of the blue side for having said trade offs... which is really bad imagine if every other class had the same horrid utility/cc and mediocre dps for a clunky dual legend swap that dps players couldn't even make use of. Like if every other class had something similar im pretty sure the game would be dead and everyone would have quit.

Yeah we had this discussion before, I have no plans to have it again ... the concept of Vindicator is not something just because you say it is. It should be obvious at this point Anet is going to continue  to balance the offensive/defensive aspects so that optimal use of the spec requires using both aspects ... regardless of what anyone convinces themselves the spec SHOULD be. It's hard to believe that the intent was ever for people to make builds focused on either aspect, especially based on the changes we see and the reasons Anet give for those changes. 

We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits

TLDR: the kinds of changes we are getting are not indicative of Anet making it easy for people to camp offensive Vindicator for a desirable high damage power DPS build. They are indicative of a gameplay that uses both aspects ... which shouldn't be a shocker considering that's the original concept.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Infinity.2876]

Condi herald buffs when

[phokus.8934]

22 hours ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

It is the Power dps spec of rev since you got herald for support, ren for condi, and vindi for power but one thing i do agree on is alliance is the reason the class is held back it needs more in the kit then it currently has is to weak for a dps spec with trade offs for no reason other then alliance existing blue side i mean it has invisible trade offs for a dps spec that doesnt even make use of the blue side for having said trade offs... which is really bad imagine if every other class had the same horrid utility/cc and mediocre dps for a clunky dual legend swap that dps players couldn't even make use of. Like if every other class had something similar im pretty sure the game would be dead and everyone would have quit.

Vindicator is the power dps spec and they toned down the damage as it was relatively high and the sustain was bananas.  So you are correct.

[Oceanox.4217]

on wiki it says:

Saint of zu Heltzer: (WvW) Reduce outgoing healing bonus from 20% to 10%.

more nerf for an alternate clean and healer. Does arenanet want Tempest to be the only strong healer? 

why the nerf for a new class that was doing a good job in wvw?.

This is going from bad to worse

[Bunny.9834]

They need to keep the chill in Imperial Impact in competitive, at least in WvW. 

It will be completely pointless without it and can't compete with the other two grandmaster traits. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:05 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

Welllll it is the entire problem of current Alacgade. Their buffing from 1.5 to 2 is so miniscule but people have already detected Spec dominance possibility. If buffing just by 0.5s is all it takes to turn a weak skill into potentially super busted skill, I think it's the entire problem.

The only issue with the buff is that it's a buff to Orders and not to RR. If they had just added this buff to RR instead there wouldn't be any issues with it

[Yasai.3549]

33 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The only issue with the buff is that it's a buff to Orders and not to RR. If they had just added this buff to RR instead there wouldn't be any issues with it

Yea it really felt like it should have been a buff tagged onto RR and not the actual skill itself. 

I was talking about before about how RR should get either an Orders CD reduction or a duration buff too, but it really doesn't help that Rene is entirely dependent on ONE BUTTON for Alac. It feels kinda low effort and current state of Rene is suffering from having to equip alot of Diviners because of this one button nature. 

[Anonynja.3172]

i did NOT press submit three times, so idk

Edited February 7, 2023 by Anonynja.3172

[Anonynja.3172]

first one posted without indication, apologies for double reply

Edited February 7, 2023 by Anonynja.3172

[Anonynja.3172]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:23 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, my point is that Vindicator is  NOW just a Revenant that has access to 3 legends; it's an untenable balancing challenge for Anet. There are very few approaches to fix this and none of them look very appealing as a player. This is just a good example of when spec concepts are gutted without considering how the spec design and implementation will work when in the game. 

Whether it 'works' or not or how relevant the heros are ... that's second rate and not really relevant to my point here. I think we can both agree that Vindicator currently is big problems. 

You're right though. I don't think a lot of revenant players want to see it, but Vindicator is a bloated toolkit with 15 utility skills. Too many options at once, so you're either overpowered, each skill is weak individually, or you have gaps and redundancies (like lacking CC in PvE, or being able to pop 3 consecutive heals in PvP). Same balance/design challenge Elementalist has with 20 weapon skills (26 on weaver).

Lemme know what you think of my rework proposal. Its core is consolidating Vindicator to one utility bar, leaning into the dodge identity, adding a charge & burst pattern to the Urn and Spear skills, and adding synergy with core legends & traits (mechanically just a Facet of Nature clone to get the point across, could be done numerous ways).

[Anonynja.3172]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:50 PM, Infinity.2876 said:

Condi herald buffs when

Condi herald feels awesome in pvp, what buffs do you think it needs? Or are you talking about PvE? Facet of Nature on Mallyx is a great tide turner in teamfights, and you can go tanky or bursty depending on your corruption traits and amulet/rune.

I think shield5 should let you move, or not just block but reflect, or blast finisher if fully cast.

[Infinity.2876]

5 hours ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

Condi herald feels awesome in pvp, what buffs do you think it needs? Or are you talking about PvE? Facet of Nature on Mallyx is a great tide turner in teamfights, and you can go tanky or bursty depending on your corruption traits and amulet/rune.

I think shield5 should let you move, or not just block but reflect, or blast finisher if fully cast.

Anet nerfed torment damage and reduced burst considerably. According to metabattle it ranks very low in power on the pvp ladder. In open world it is still pretty good but lacks the ability to burst things down as quickly as condi renegade but still finds a niche in harder content like HoT and bounties

[vilesoldier.9826]

51 minutes ago, Infinity.2876 said:

Anet nerfed torment damage and reduced burst considerably. 

 

Did you miss the last two patches? Condi Rev has specifically gotten dmg-targeted buffs for the last 2 big pvp patches.

 

Lots of people can't play Mallyx and blame it on Anet all the time 🤷‍♂️

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

You're right though. I don't think a lot of revenant players want to see it, but Vindicator is a bloated toolkit with 15 utility skills. Too many options at once, so you're either overpowered, each skill is weak individually, or you have gaps and redundancies (like lacking CC in PvE, or being able to pop 3 consecutive heals in PvP). Same balance/design challenge Elementalist has with 20 weapon skills (26 on weaver).

Lemme know what you think of my rework proposal. Its core is consolidating Vindicator to one utility bar, leaning into the dodge identity, adding a charge & burst pattern to the Urn and Spear skills, and adding synergy with core legends & traits (mechanically just a Facet of Nature clone to get the point across, could be done numerous ways).

I think revenant players do see it. The problem is that revenant has NO selfish spec that just blasts - any build you can put together is going to have some support on it. Unlike elementalist and pre-rework firebrand, however, Alliance Stance skills are all drawing from a common resource. If you have all power DPS traits and gear, and spend all of your energy while in Archemorus stance, it's reasonable to presume that you should end up with a decent power DPS spec, especially since your healing power will be low even if you are forced to switch to Viktor. Maybe not as much DPS as a purely selfish damage-only spec that doesn't even have the choice to switch to mediocre party healing in a pinch, but certainly good enough to be regarded as solid.

The key is pulling that off without supercharging the hybrid builds.

In the long run, ArenaNet needs to stop giving revenant DPS/support hybrid elite stances for an expansion or two and come up with one or two legends that are just straight damage and can be paired with Shiro (power) or Mallyx (condi) for pure DPS. Revenant has basically ended up with the reverse of Warrior's problem.

[Yasai.3549]

38 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think revenant players do see it. The problem is that revenant has NO selfish spec that just blasts - any build you can put together is going to have some support on it. Unlike elementalist and pre-rework firebrand, however, Alliance Stance skills are all drawing from a common resource. If you have all power DPS traits and gear, and spend all of your energy while in Archemorus stance, it's reasonable to presume that you should end up with a decent power DPS spec, especially since your healing power will be low even if you are forced to switch to Viktor. Maybe not as much DPS as a purely selfish damage-only spec that doesn't even have the choice to switch to mediocre party healing in a pinch, but certainly good enough to be regarded as solid.

The key is pulling that off without supercharging the hybrid builds.

In the long run, ArenaNet needs to stop giving revenant DPS/support hybrid elite stances for an expansion or two and come up with one or two legends that are just straight damage and can be paired with Shiro (power) or Mallyx (condi) for pure DPS. Revenant has basically ended up with the reverse of Warrior's problem.

Meanwhile Warriors keep getting everything but support or half support specs.

 

We should switch.

[Anonynja.3172]

12 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Meanwhile Warriors keep getting everything but support or half support specs.

 

We should switch.

Heal quick war in pve and heal shoutbreaker in pvp are honestly based. 

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think revenant players do see it. The problem is that revenant has NO selfish spec that just blasts - any build you can put together is going to have some support on it.

Nah, the issue is simpler and deeper than that. Three utility bars is inherently tough to balance. Regardless of if they're 10 offensive or 10 defensive skills or a mix. You have 3 heal skills, 9 utilities, and 3 elites in a game built around 1, 3, and 1. 

[Sereath.1428]

19 hours ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

Heal quick war in pve and heal shoutbreaker in pvp are honestly based. 

Nah, the issue is simpler and deeper than that. Three utility bars is inherently tough to balance. Regardless of if they're 10 offensive or 10 defensive skills or a mix. You have 3 heal skills, 9 utilities, and 3 elites in a game built around 1, 3, and 1. 

Elementalist moment

That class will also always have that struggle when being balanced vs the rest
and to be honest, I don't think it's bad at all that it should always have a slightly higher skill ceiling than the rest, since that also comes with a higher skill entry.
Otherwise whats the point of having an expanded kit with the total power split among all those additional skills.

It's a very similar situation with Vindicator, except for the fact that revenant also has energy costs, making it easier to balance, specially because you dont get the 50e energy refresh when swapping between Alliance stances.

It's not too complicated to understand. Is it hard to balance? Yes.
It would be very helpful to have balance patches happen more often...

Either way, your rework ideas do look interesting and good.
One thing about Vindicator for sure is that many traits are very uncreative.

Edited February 9, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

 

Nah, the issue is simpler and deeper than that. Three utility bars is inherently tough to balance. Regardless of if they're 10 offensive or 10 defensive skills or a mix. You have 3 heal skills, 9 utilities, and 3 elites in a game built around 1, 3, and 1. 

Tangential. People call vindicator a power DPS spec because it's that or herald, and herald didn't bring as much DPS when EoD released. The nature of revenant elite specs is that they're all going to have some support on their bar. And on core, going power means Shiro/Jalis, and Jalis brings support. There's no escaping it, so the power DPS spec becomes whatever brings the most DPS. Because energy is shared, you can just use 90%+ of your alliance energy in Archemorus and only dip into Viktor for emergencies - and if you have no healing investment, that's probably exactly what you should do. DPS vindicator switching to Viktor is like a condi firebrand pulling a Tome of Resolve - you can do it in a pinch, but you'd really prefer if you didn't have to, and if things are running smoothly, you probably won't. (And if they're not, there's a pretty narrow range where you'll make a difference without healing power).

There's also the fact that in PvE, lack of Quickness or Alacrity pretty much pins it as a DPS build. (Does make me wonder if Quickness should have been on Vindicator rather than Herald.)

Regarding the point you are making:

I think it DOES make a difference to the difficulty of balancing if the skills are all pushing towards the same function than if they're a mix. If they're all pushing to the same function, power DPS say, the balancer can assume it will be used with power stats and balance it to be roughly the same performance as other builds with the same function. With a mix, though, that opens up a lot of scenarios. How useful are party heal skills really to a build with no healing power? Will the healer even get to use the offensive skills, and if they do, how much does it really contribute to their power level if they have a few more wet noodles on their skillbar? What happens when the player runs a Celestial or other hybrid build and can therefore use everything on their bar at least semi-effectively? And any change you DO make is going to effect all three builds, so nerfing an OP hybrid build might send a healing or DPS specialist straight to the trash.

Edited February 9, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Anonynja.3172]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There's no escaping it, so the power DPS spec becomes whatever brings the most DPS. 

I think it DOES make a difference to the difficulty of balancing if the skills are all pushing towards the same function than if they're a mix.

I understand what you're saying and totally agree in the context of PvE. Those are all valid questions. The piece you're missing with balance is PvP/WvW. In PvE, players optimize one role completely. In competitive modes, players must bring variety, with DPS builds requiring some sustain - whether from mobility, stealth, evades, blocks, healing, w/e. In a raid or strike, yes, a Vindicator will ignore Saint Viktor, ignore their heals, and just rotate through the best highest damage sequence of skills. But in PvP, having access to 3 heals and 2-3 stunbreaks is *extremely relevant* to the balance discussion.

So I often describe the situation with Vindicator like this: It's inherently hard to balance a class that can use 3 utility bars. The class can end up being simultaneously underpowered in PvE and overpowered in PvP. It has low internal synergy and isn't good at focusing on one role. In PvE, that means it can't reach as high a potential, and in PvP, it brings far more sustain than it invests in.

6 hours ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

Elementalist moment

That class will also always have that struggle when being balanced vs the rest
and to be honest, I don't think it's bad at all that it should always have a slightly higher skill ceiling than the rest, since that also comes with a higher skill entry.
Otherwise whats the point of having an expanded kit with the total power split among all those additional skills.

Either way, your rework ideas do look interesting and good.
One thing about Vindicator for sure is that many traits are very uncreative.

Yeah, I think elementalist has struggled with this since launch. When you have up to 31 skills at your disposal (weaver), what does balance look like? ANet struggles to hit the mark. Ele players either have to work twice as hard for the same result, or high-skill players get a large advantage over other classes.

I agree with encouraging higher skill ceiling and rewarding it. But Vindicator gets 5 defensive skills in PvP for free. The only skill floor is knowing when to switch Alliance stances so you can access them. Other revenant builds have to invest substantially into healing and defense in order to access the level of sustain Vindicator has by default.

And thank you for offering feedback!!  

[Aeolus.3615]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:50 AM, Oceanox.4217 said:

on wiki it says:

Saint of zu Heltzer: (WvW) Reduce outgoing healing bonus from 20% to 10%.

more nerf for an alternate clean and healer. Does arenanet want Tempest to be the only strong healer? 

why the nerf for a new class that was doing a good job in wvw?.

This is going from bad to worse

 They could buff herald :) and make vindicator elite make players affected by it receive extra 10% incoming heal on them, more mechanics is better than many doing the same which creates roles and conflict.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

I understand what you're saying and totally agree in the context of PvE. Those are all valid questions. The piece you're missing with balance is PvP/WvW. In PvE, players optimize one role completely. In competitive modes, players must bring variety, with DPS builds requiring some sustain - whether from mobility, stealth, evades, blocks, healing, w/e. In a raid or strike, yes, a Vindicator will ignore Saint Viktor, ignore their heals, and just rotate through the best highest damage sequence of skills. But in PvP, having access to 3 heals and 2-3 stunbreaks is *extremely relevant* to the balance discussion.

So I often describe the situation with Vindicator like this: It's inherently hard to balance a class that can use 3 utility bars. The class can end up being simultaneously underpowered in PvE and overpowered in PvP. It has low internal synergy and isn't good at focusing on one role. In PvE, that means it can't reach as high a potential, and in PvP, it brings far more sustain than it invests in.

In the context where it came up in this thread, I think it is PvE-oriented. Why? Because the person who said Vindicator was the power spec also classified Herald as the support spec. Herald hasn't been a support spec in competitive modes for a long time - what it has been well known for is a high-mobility glass cannon power spike build, and occasionally bruiser builds that are either power or condi pop up. Meanwhile, in WvW it's been mostly known for getting hammer nerfed into uselessness in other modes before ArenaNet started splitting skills backline ranged power spikes.

But even in a PvP context, I think my observation that it does matter what the skills are holds. The example you use is one where the skillbars are split between two different roles, so you can easily switch between heavy damage and heavy sustain (particularly since in sPvP you can generally get more meaningful healing with lower investments in healing power) depending on what you need. Would we have the same problem if it was, say, Archemorus and Shiro paired, so both skillbars were damage oriented? I think not. You'd have the ability to choose between different methods of how you dish out the damage, which is an advantage over having fewer methods of doing so, but that flexibility can be accounted for and you're still spending the same energy. You have an extra heal, but that can be accounted for in balancing by making them both weaker than they would be if there was only one. You have an extra stunbreak, which is nice, but revenant isn't exactly known for its ability to easily break stuns to begin with - there's a degree to which that might just be average rather than exceptional, and there are potential opportunity costs to switching for the sake of accessing a stunbreak.

Having an additional skillbar that changes the role you play is, I think, a bigger problem to balance (not an insurmountable one, but a bigger one). The thing is that I think that historically there have been fewer builds that have had multiple bars all pushing towards the same purpose. Kit engis being the main one, Jalis heralds kinda count (Glint and Jalis are both primarily power/buff support hybrids, although Glint can also be configured to support a condi playstyle) and elementalists have only started getting builds where water is actually a reasonably selfish DPS option with a bit of sustain (every build needs some) rather than a designated group support attunement in the past year. Most builds with more than the usual number of skills involve some degree of changing your role when you switch bars.

[Obtena.7952]

Even if you want to convince yourself Vindicator SHOULD be a competitive power DPS spec for PVE or not, that still doesn't change the fact that balancing access to 3 skill bars is a problem. I think it's even safe to generalize that this access is a balancing problem for any role or game mode you want to talk about Vindicator being in, regardless of any energy limitation or swapping CD's are imposed on it. 

I think one challenge for Anet to balance PVE Vindicator is the fact that Archemorus skillsets don't even factor significantly for optimal DPS when you are in a team; you spam Spear on CD. That's really not a large contribution. 

I guess fundamentally the question is where does the DPS add so a competitive DPS team Vindicator setup doesn't become a trivial, OPed OW Solo Vindicator? That's a valid question. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

At this point there isn't anymore debate about whether it "should be a competitive dps spec in PvE or not." The fact of the matter is that the spec is one, period. And the 3 utility bars are not currently an issue in PvE. The spec is solid.

[Yasai.3549]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Why? Because the person who said Vindicator was the power spec also classified Herald as the support spec. Herald hasn't been a support spec in competitive modes for a long time - what it has been well known for is a high-mobility glass cannon power spike build, and occasionally bruiser builds that are either power or condi pop up.

Druid by this definition isn't a support spec either, and neither is every other "support spec" 

Just because something is announced a support spec doesn't mean it has to be played as one in PvP, where the meta is constantly shifting based on what works and not how something is designed. 

 

Ignoring PvP and just focusing on PvE, Legendary Alliance is a DPS Legend with a support Legend in the backpocket for some reason. This honestly is the weirdest thing about Vindicator and I wish it never existed in this fashion. It's just so wrong to backpocket a whole 5 more utilities, and naturally this makes Vindicator even worse to balance in PvP due to having essentially 3 Legends. 

 

If they really cared about making Vindicator embody 2 legends without having balance headaches, they would have made the class a Half and Half sharing a single Legend. 

Saint Vik would personify Healing skill and Stunbreak 

Arch would personify aggressive utilities and Elite. 

But they decided lol let's just make this one Legend actually 2 Legends haha. At this point I almost wish that Vindicator's trade off is that if you equip Legendary Alliance, your second Legend is automatically replaced by one of the two Alliance members. 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Druid by this definition isn't a support spec either, and neither is every other "support spec" 

Just because something is announced a support spec doesn't mean it has to be played as one in PvP, where the meta is constantly shifting based on what works and not how something is designed. 

Sure, the roles change around a bit based on the mode. That's pretty much the point I was making. I would note, though, that I'd certainly assume that a tempest is a support when I see one in sPvP, and druid was certainly used as support for a lot longer than people tried using ventari herald. And if support rev ever becomes a thing in sPvP, I'm pretty sure it would be vindicator rather than herald. Herald is really only being viewed as support because it has quickness, and is able to provide enough healing for PvE purposes when combined with Ventari and a healing build. Until then, herald was pretty close to exclusively regarded as a DPS or bruiser spec, albeit one which (at the time) had subpar DPS in exchange for boon extension.

 

Either way, until and unless a support herald build does start gaining traction in competitive modes, I think it's reasonable to assume that if someone describes herald as support, they're thinking about PvE. (And even then, there's a certain irony in that you can also make a power DPS variant that does 38.5k now, so it's really power and/or support depending on the precise build.) Vindicator is really mainly being regarded as "the DPS spec" because of greatsword.

3 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

Ignoring PvP and just focusing on PvE, Legendary Alliance is a DPS Legend with a support Legend in the backpocket for some reason. This honestly is the weirdest thing about Vindicator and I wish it never existed in this fashion. It's just so wrong to backpocket a whole 5 more utilities, and naturally this makes Vindicator even worse to balance in PvP due to having essentially 3 Legends. 

 

If they really cared about making Vindicator embody 2 legends without having balance headaches, they would have made the class a Half and Half sharing a single Legend. 

Saint Vik would personify Healing skill and Stunbreak 

Arch would personify aggressive utilities and Elite. 

But they decided lol let's just make this one Legend actually 2 Legends haha. At this point I almost wish that Vindicator's trade off is that if you equip Legendary Alliance, your second Legend is automatically replaced by one of the two Alliance members. 

A big part of the problem is that healers really need to have quickness or alacrity to fit in the PvE meta. Scourge can get away with it sometimes due to sheer "I did not give you permission to die" power, but only when the group is having trouble otherwise.

 

If you ask me, they should probably have given quickness to Vindicator, and just focused on making Herald a strong damage spec with some interesting boon interactions.