Living World.....Gone?

[Tom.8029]

5 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

And if they come at a price of 10 bucks a piece noone will complain even 15 bucks alot of people will take it, its 3 maps instead of 10 if you count pof and season 4.

But slightly reduced price sound more like 25 bucks for each mini expansion mate.

So are you including the price of paying for living world episodes in this?

If you're a new player, you have to pay for living world episodes and the associated expansions to access them.  So this new method won't require you logging in during its release to unlock it for free, and having to pay if you miss it.

[Yugen.8540]

are they resorting to this new form of monetization because the existing one wasn't enough to pay for on-going development of the game? 

[Linken.6345]

6 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

So are you including the price of paying for living world episodes in this?

If you're a new player, you have to pay for living world episodes and the associated expansions to access them.  So this new method won't require you logging in during its release to unlock it for free, and having to pay if you miss it.

Yea because that was the people who are for this say living world was never free, since you needed an expansion to access them.

And you dont have to pay cash for them as a new player you can pay with in game currency aswell, if they sell us the mini expansions for gems Im all for it since I already got plenty of those.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Linken.6345

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Players need to remember the reduction in maps is intentional, and something the community requested for a long time. There's been no end of complaints about there being too many maps, the maps being abandoned and so on, which is why they were split into two episodes per map in IceBrood Saga and why End of Dragons launched with fewer maps than Path of Fire.

 

The game was getting overwhelmed with content, and only the most dedicated players could complete it all within a reasonable amount of time, especially if they had other responsibilities.

 

(Note: I'm not referring to the post-HoT and post-EoD content droughts here, just Living World.)

Edited February 17, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Astralporing.1957]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:07 PM, Tom.8029 said:

Okay.  Everyone keeps saying some version of, “Now we’re paying for living world.”  You’ve been paying for living world and its seasons this entire time.   You need Heart of Thorns to have access to season 3.  You need Path of Fire to have access to season 4 and Icebrood Saga. Sure, if you unlocked it for free when it was live, you don’t have to shell out for that individual episode and season, but they are still locked behind the expansion. 
 

It’s literally just a rebranding and the same thing. 

If it'd be just a rebranding, it would not be an issue, but the way they present it does offer a lot more interpretations, most of them representing a future that is not as hopeful as this. And, knowing Anet, trying to base your expectations around the best possible interpretations of what they say is generally not a good idea, because when they withhold information, it's rarely because that info is good.

In short, if the changes were just for the sake of marketing, and it would end with us receiving pretty much the same (or better) content (just packaged differently), they most likely would have said that straight out already. Since they didn't, however... well, that can be seen only as worrying.

And btw, there can be many reasons for the coming change, but the one they mentioned is an indirect admission that the current release schedule (already not that great at this point, tbh), is heavily straining their resources. You can interpret that however you want.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[mythical.6315]

On 2/17/2023 at 3:48 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Players need to remember the reduction in maps is intentional, and something the community requested for a long time. There's been no end of complaints about there being too many maps, the maps being abandoned and so on, which is why they were split into two episodes per map in IceBrood Saga and why End of Dragons launched with fewer maps than Path of Fire.

Source?

On 2/17/2023 at 3:48 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

The game was getting overwhelmed with content, and only the most dedicated players could complete it all within a reasonable amount of time, especially if they had other responsibilities.

No it wasn't.  We had been averaging an episode every 3-4 months and we're nearly a year since any new content has been added to the game.  There was also a 10-ish month content drought prior to the last expansion as well.  When you look at the episodes themselves, the the majority of what kept players busy with things to do were the achievements with some of them especially grindy when it came to LS5.  The content itself for an episode wasn't overwhelming as you could experience all of it over an evening and the content has been permanent.  I don't get what your whole "reasonable amount of time" statement was about as either you're flat wrong or you wrote it in a way that you didn't intend.

Edited February 20, 2023 by mythical.6315

[Zeivu.3615]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:26 PM, Yugen.8540 said:

are they resorting to this new form of monetization because the existing one wasn't enough to pay for on-going development of the game? 

 

Welcome to the world of Corporate America. It's never enough.

[rylien.3824]

2 hours ago, Zeivu.3615 said:

 

Bienvenue dans le monde des entreprises américaines. Ce n'est jamais assez.

I assure you in France it's the same, the grass is never greener elsewhere, the rot is just different, but it's still rot. Their new model is a scam, and everything will depend on the quality behind it, but far from faultless, there is little chance that it will delight many people, I'm afraid it's really the end of Guild Wars 2. All l he interest of GUILD WARS 2 was to be a sequel to the first opus: it was only half a success, since the scenario itself was scuttled too many times, the PvE is too easy and little worked, almost had to no End game content, we have to remove some, and today we have even less of them, no more specializations which was the selling point of the extensions and the only real novelty, the maps will have less too, the famous "living world" from the very beginning of the game was also the argument of Guild Wars 2 to diversify, and as well as the fact that it requires no subscription, all that is today trampling, PvP and WvW is dumb same the same. What are the only arguments to make us stay? Nothing, just emptiness and empty promises. I'm waiting to see about the free additions of course, I paid after all, but I just feel like we're being spit in the face, especially on the veterans. 😩LW5 was a massacre, and End of Dragons has a lot of quality but a lot of flaws. It's really a shame, because even if it's recycling (and I'm very unhappy with it, especially the New-Kaineng map), it was still nice. Today we were simply told that: the only result that we will have in Cantha finally (certainly) would be the Jade Sea towards an area that we already knew a priori (Kanaxaï), there is reason to be sorry . .. in the face of it. Moreover, even if it were paying (because I can imagine at least something between $25-27 and no less) it wouldn't be worth having the same thing as End of Dragons in recycled and since they cannot sell a mini-extension with old textures...

We will see the 28, but I have little hope, I cross my fingers because this is their last chance.
 

[Jukhy.2431]

5 hours ago, rylien.3824 said:

We will see the 28, but I have little hope, I cross my fingers because this is their last chance.

The release on 28th is the continuation of EoD story and owners of the expansion will unlock it for free. They haven't yet told us when they'll release the first buyable "mini-expansion".

[Jobber.6348]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:36 AM, Jirian.7512 said:

why "no living world"? sounds more like "now your living world will be called expansions and will cost moneyz" to me

I sure as hell hope their "mini expansions" are actually considerable to an expansion in some way and not just IBS level of development. 

I will not accept IBS level development ever again. Especially not with that garbage Champions update. 

[Bakeneko.5826]

4 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I sure as hell hope their "mini expansions" are actually considerable to an expansion in some way and not just IBS level of development. 

I will not accept IBS level development ever again. Especially not with that garbage Champions update. 

If it is something like season 4, I would accept 10 eur price no problem.

[Jobber.6348]

32 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

If it is something like season 4, I would accept 10 eur price no problem.

I don't want to "settle" for anything less than a basic expansion introducing enough content worth 2 maps of a normal expansion. 

I'm already extremely pissed that IBS was a really cheap "Charr + Norn" theme expansion.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I don't want to "settle" for anything less than a basic expansion introducing enough content worth 2 maps of a normal expansion. 

I'm already extremely pissed that IBS was a really cheap "Charr + Norn" theme expansion.

You mean compared to the base + 2 other ones being human themed?

Yea I sure hope charr, norn, asura and sylvari get some more attention in the mini expansions.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

If it is something like season 4, I would accept 10 eur price no problem.

It's one thing to ask 10 EUR for content on the level of season 4. It's completely different thing if that content is what replaces the expansion. In which case it would not be enough even if it were free.

[Jobber.6348]

44 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's one thing to ask 10 EUR for content on the level of season 4. It's completely different thing if that content is what replaces the expansion. In which case it would not be enough even if it were free.

Exactly my worry with the whole "mini expansion" thing. 

What they're essentially doing is potentially charging for a Living World straight up from now on. Of course this is still up to speculation but it doesn't sound very good in my book when you look at the disparity between LW content and actual Expansion content like in EoD. 

 

Remember, we asked specifically for expansions which we knew were going to get the polish it needed to be good and EoD is proof of that. LW4 and IBS were really weak in comparison. The people spamming confuse reacts have no idea what they're supporting. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

LW4 and IBS were really weak in comparison.

I share your complete disdain for IBS, and I agree that even LWS4 does not live up to what I (and I suspect, most of us) would consider an 'expansion.'

However in the case of LWS4, several things about it were good enough that I'd accept it as the new normal, if I really had to. I consider LWS4's narrative and dialogue quality good enough, and the roller beetle and skyscale showed there were ways to introduce game-changing features without also introducing entirely new systems.

I consider the most glaring omission to be the lack of elite specs, in terms of what separates even good LW from bad expansions.

But as much as I like and want new elite specs with expansions, I'm not sure that's the most sustainable way forward for Anet. Especially not after the discord leak fiasco revealing why signet mechanist was so good, and how that low-intensity-but-pretty-high-performance didn't get spread around to other classes by the 'balance' team despite the PR talk we got from Anet about some 'new direction of accessibility to the game.' I can see a few promising alternatives to the current elite spec model that I'd accept.

Edited February 20, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[Jobber.6348]

5 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

However in the case of LWS4, several things about it were good enough that I'd accept it as the new normal, if I really had to.

This is just it: we shouldn't accept "new normals" when they are fully capable of delivering a much better standard. 

I'll only accept a new normal if their new normal is literally "Okay guys, we have half an expansion polished and ready to ship, do you want it now? We're gonna charge it for cheaper, then give you the other half of the expansion later on" 

Right now that's up to speculation, and I'm making it known now I will not accept IBS level of shallowness as paid content, and I think neither should the playerbase. 

[Poormany.4507]

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Exactly my worry with the whole "mini expansion" thing. 

What they're essentially doing is potentially charging for a Living World straight up from now on. Of course this is still up to speculation but it doesn't sound very good in my book when you look at the disparity between LW content and actual Expansion content like in EoD. 

 

Remember, we asked specifically for expansions which we knew were going to get the polish it needed to be good and EoD is proof of that. LW4 and IBS were really weak in comparison. The people spamming confuse reacts have no idea what they're supporting. 

Agree - I have no idea and am concerned why so much playerbase seems to support this change in direction. It's essentially paying more for less imo. Paying $25-30 twice a year-1.5 years for rebranded Living World with possibly no more elite specs and likely random map-specific masteries (See IBS red/green/blue masteries) vs paying $30 every 2-3 years for 2-3 years of content including new elite specs and whole game-changing features (Gliding, Mounts, Skiffs, Jade Bots). Sure, we may get some high quality mini-expacs, but there's also a heavy chance of getting IBS or Kourna quality ones as well for the same price.

Wondering and am concerned about what the response would be to a sub fee for new expansions at this point using the same argument ("We're changing to a sub system for future new content, but you'll get content releases much more frequently and we'll be able to better focus on all game modes").

Edited February 21, 2023 by Poormany.4507

[Serephen.3420]

I think Anet really didn't do themselves a service with the wording of the announcement. Far too vague and speculative. Regardless of my feelings on the matter, it's very much a wait and see situation now, but the lack of follow-up or further clarification leads to threads like these which is perfectly understandable. 

 

No one can truly tell if it will be good or bad. But past negative experiences always have a greater influence on opinions than the positive ones in situations of uncertainty. 

 

I'm not a fan of what it feels like, but I'm hopeful for what it might be. Though I'm not going to put blind faith in any company because that mever results in anything good.

Two companies beginning with B to name a few.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Agree - I have no idea and am concerned why so much playerbase seems to support this change in direction. It's essentially paying more for less imo. Paying $25-30 twice a year-1.5 years for rebranded Living World with possibly no more elite specs and likely random map-specific masteries (See IBS red/green/blue masteries) vs paying $30 every 2-3 years for 2-3 years of content including new elite specs and whole game-changing features (Gliding, Mounts, Skiffs, Jade Bots). Sure, we may get some high quality mini-expacs, but there's also a heavy chance of getting IBS or Kourna quality ones as well for the same price.

Wondering and am concerned about what the response would be to a sub fee for new expansions at this point using the same argument ("We're changing to a sub system for future new content, but you'll get content releases much more frequently and we'll be able to better focus on all game modes").

It could also be the A team do the paid content then the B team do the free content for that expansion each quarter 3, 6 ,9 and 12  months down the line. 

So all the free extra content added to mini expansion  we get is close to koruma/champions.

All while the A team work on the next paid mini expansion.

The other two living story team we had then have plenty of time to do other things.

[Ashantara.8731]

16 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

You mean compared to the base + 2 other ones being human themed?

I believe the point was that the Charr and Norn content was disappointing for fans of those races. It wasn't criticism on there being Charr and Norn themed content. 😉

[Jobber.6348]

On 2/17/2023 at 7:48 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Players need to remember the reduction in maps is intentional, and something the community requested for a long time. There's been no end of complaints about there being too many maps, the maps being abandoned and so on, which is why they were split into two episodes per map in IceBrood Saga and why End of Dragons launched with fewer maps than Path of Fire.

 

The game was getting overwhelmed with content, and only the most dedicated players could complete it all within a reasonable amount of time, especially if they had other responsibilities.

 

(Note: I'm not referring to the post-HoT and post-EoD content droughts here, just Living World.)

All wrong.

 

We were not overwhelmed with maps, we love maps. We were overwhelmed with Map Currencies, all of which often tied to basically living in that map for months on end.

 

People have grown tired of that form of content gating and want more depth of content and less currency, but this does not mean less maps at all.

 

IBS actually doubled down on map camping and currency grinding. Grothmar was already a red flag which everyone missed. Bjora was when it got real serious. Thank god Drizzle meta is actually replayable and fun. 

 

Then we have DRMs. God forbid we ever have DRMs 2 electric boogaloo.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

45 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

All wrong.

 

We were not overwhelmed with maps, we love maps. We were overwhelmed with Map Currencies, all of which often tied to basically living in that map for months on end.

 

People have grown tired of that form of content gating and want more depth of content and less currency, but this does not mean less maps at all.

 

IBS actually doubled down on map camping and currency grinding. Grothmar was already a red flag which everyone missed. Bjora was when it got real serious. Thank god Drizzle meta is actually replayable and fun. 

 

Then we have DRMs. God forbid we ever have DRMs 2 electric boogaloo.

I'm not sure why you came here to tell me I'm wrong about something literally discussed in the developer livestreams? They were intentionally going back to the map release model of LWS2 (Dry Top/Silverwastes), in order to prevent many issues that had cropped up with maps being too numerous, and either too basic or too overengineered.

 

A good example often cited by the community is how little resources were spent on Kourna, intentionally releasing it unfinished, compared to Thunderhead Peaks which was too complex.

Edited February 21, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Jobber.6348]

23 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I'm not sure why you came here to tell me I'm wrong about something literally discussed in the developer livestreams? They were intentionally going back to the map release model of LWS2 (Dry Top/Silverwastes), in order to prevent many issues that had cropped up with maps being too numerous, and either too basic or too overengineered.

I am not saying your citation was wrong, I'm saying that it's wrong to think people hate maps. I've went through old reddit and forum posts and most map related complaints weren't about "too many maps" it was mainly about "too many currencies to keep track of and farm" 

 

23 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

A good example often cited by the community is how little resources were spent on Kourna, intentionally releasing it unfinished, compared to Thunderhead Peaks which was too complex.

And the solution is to cut down on maps instead of releasing it polished? So if we make a lose contextual relation, are we now seeing Expansions being downsized instead of more work put into ensuring it's polished and up to standard? That's not very encouraging news to the fans looking forward to content at all. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think fewer maps makes it easier to release them polished.