Living World.....Gone?

[Einsof.1457]

57 minutes ago, Gambit.9501 said:

NEVER CRITICIZE
NEVER COMPLAIN
JUST CONSOOM PRODUCT

I have gotten THOUSANDS of hours of enjoyment out of gw2, and ive spent less than $150 in 10 years. The entertainment per hour value is OFF THE RAILS with this game. People go out and spend $40 to see a 2 hour movie, and you think $20 for probably 100 or more hours of content is somehow a bad deal? Give me a break. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Einsof.1457]

39 minutes ago, Blaeys.3102 said:

Am curious about the future of elite specializations. New ways to play my class is one of the biggest selling points for any new expansion to me.

hopefully no more. 36 is enough. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

hopefully no more. 36 is enough. 

But there has to be something to get people to buy the new expansion if they aren't interested in the new stories and strikes.

[zistenz.1945]

The FOMO is hard on this one, but I just finished PoF and started LWS3, and as I didn't liked much of the story, I think there's no rush to jump into anything blindly.

 

And as like I don't vote for empty promises only on hard deeds, I don't preorder anything. I did in the past, many years ago, but never again, ever. Sorry, but I'll wait on this as I still do on EoD too.

[Firebeard.1746]

I do think they need to closely watch startup costs for joining the game. Right now, buying eod, pof and lw seasons is a lot. They should probably have a moving window of content that costs money, and buying the most recent expansion gives you everything from before the window. I wanted to buy EoD for a friend but ultimately decided against it because of how much the lw cost and thought they'd be disappointed if they didn't have access to the skyscale. 

[Blue D Phoenix.7260]

Yeah as others mentioned, I didn't notice that "slightly reduced", I can't afford to pay every 6 months 25$.

 

Also I'm guessing they're doing this because they know the quality dropped for an expansion (EoD) and there's not many features that can be added to make it a new expansion, so they instead do this.

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, akipappi.3917 said:

I think this was a good financial choice from Anet. Look at Icebrood Saga. It was bad. And EoD was also bad. If they continued the way they did surely they would have had to shut down the game, releasing content for free that took a lot of effort but the quality kept plummeting. Also this way we will expect less from the smaller expansions as opposed to big major releases that have to do well, now if something is boring we can just wait a bit and get something else later. However this just seems like a sub based game now which I think is fair if the quality is worth it. EoD is around 26 euros and the release window would seem to fall into 13e/month if its every 2 months.

 

The thing I am most concerned about is Elite Specs mostly. "new gameplay and combat features, new Masteries, and new rewards." They were so vague. Are we getting elite specs very fast now or every 4 years? Balance could spiral out of control even more. And EoD specs are horrible so will the future espec quality be better or worse? Also new masteries? I am not excited at all considering what we got in EoD, more buff machines? Or like in IBS, where masteries were using door handles. I want to see how this turns out but I do love gw franchise so I hope it goes well.

Honestly I thought IBS was pretty solid until the final portions.

[Cuks.8241]

50 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering that one of the reasons they mentioned for doing that change is an admission they are no longer capable of doing multiple projects at once (even LS, much less an expansion), i'd seriously expect a massive reduction in content amount.

I would expect the same amount as now but at a more steady pace, without the drought before and peak at expansion release. From the company organisational pov I think that's good. 

[Cuks.8241]

11 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Honestly I thought IBS was pretty solid until the final portions.

First 2 or 3 chapters of IBS were great. Top quality delivery and introduction of a new 10 man mode which has been a success. Strikes really are coming along nicely. Yeah the initial Strikes were kinda basic but they keep getting better. 

Some people complained about Forging Steel as a mandatory story group content. Which I get, maybe not the best move. But the instance has quality production and while a bit long with some drawn out parts to be successful as a Strike Mission, there's a lot of lore and dialogue and unique mechanics in there.

[thetwothousand.5049]

37 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering that one of the reasons they mentioned for doing that change is an admission they are no longer capable of doing multiple projects at once (even LS, much less an expansion), i'd seriously expect a massive reduction in content amount.

You're misunderstanding what they are saying, and frankly a LOT of people in this thread and on Reddit are too. They are saying they currently have the inability to maintain multiple work flows, and the reason is because when ever they try to ship an expansion they need to go all hands on deck and other parts of the game suffer for it. This is factually true, something that they've talked about in the past, and it's something the community is constantly dogging them for.

The point of this change up is specifically to move away from the "all hand on deck" shifts so that systems and game modes besides expansions can be worked on and delivered in timely manner. This is something the entire community should be thrilled about. They literally say in the post "we have a lot of good bones, we just need time to flesh them out and tune them up". Paraphrasing obviously, but the point stands and this is great. Now we will still get our traditional content drops (story, new maps, horizontal progression) and things that they simply dont have the time, money, or people to work on too. Things like faster WVW development, better Guild mechanics and missions, revamping the LFG and social tools are all on the table with this change and the game will be significantly better off for it.

I think its also worth pointing out that this dev team deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Since assuming control about a year or so ago this team has made multiple specific promises to the community, and delivered on every single one of them. Executing on the expansion of EoD, returning LWS1 to the live game, better balance cadence, and most importantly improved communication with us the players. They are now coming to us and saying we're going to make a change to the way we deliver content so that everyone will benefit. This leadership team has earned the trust to make this change and prove they can deliver once again.

If they are successful Guild Wars 2 will be charging more, but it will be no more than an additional $20 (and that is a very high estimate it will more likely be ~$10) for what we use to consider an expansion. In exchange the player base will be getting better, faster, more consistent updates with significantly more varied content. Well worth it in my opinion.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

39 minutes ago, Blue D Phoenix.7260 said:

Yeah as others mentioned, I didn't notice that "slightly reduced", I can't afford to pay every 6 months 25$.

This is the most deceiving way you could uave interpreted the studio post, but ok.

[Nomad.4301]

11 minutes ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

If they are successful Guild Wars 2 will be charging more, but it will be no more than an additional $20 (and that is a very high estimate it will more likely be ~$10) for what we use to consider an expansion. In exchange the player base will be getting better, faster, more consistent updates with significantly more varied content. Well worth it in my opinion.

How exactly are they going to accomplish this by just changing the model of when (ex. yearly instead of every other year) we pay for content? An increase in production speed with more varied content that is "better" and more consistent is something you can only achieve by either hiring more staff and expanding the studio (as opposed to the recent layoffs) or dropping a significant amount of other content (PvP, WvW, raids, fractals etc..) on the cutting-room floor in favor of what they believe we actually want, which is seemingly what they've been doing for years hence the neglect of rest of the game in favor of open-world.

Ultimately they will be making more money off of us by doing this (obviously, that's the point) but unless they reinvest that back into the studio (unlikely) I fail to see how this is a good thing content-wise because realistically the same amount of people can only produce so much in a given year. The only real advantage that I see from this is the "varied content" because like ESO, having more expansions allows them to spread their teams out and tell more smaller-scale stories rather than 1 extremely large 10-year long dragon arc.

[Gehenna.3625]

5 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

why "no living world"? sounds more like "now your living world will be called expansions and will cost moneyz" to me

Living world will now be quarterly content updates at no extra cost and all players will have them unlike the previous LW chapters where you had to unlock them with gems if you missed them.

The expansions are separate from that. They will be smaller but more frequent at a reduced price. Sounds like an interesting idea to me.

[Astralporing.1957]

28 minutes ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

You're misunderstanding what they are saying, and frankly a LOT of people in this thread and on Reddit are too. They are saying they currently have the inability to maintain multiple work flows, and the reason is because when ever they try to ship an expansion they need to go all hands on deck and other parts of the game suffer for it. This is factually true, something that they've talked about in the past, and it's something the community is constantly dogging them for.

Yes. Remember, that at the later half of HoT to PoF timeline, they were capable of doing an expansion, while at the same time keeping up 3 paralell LS workflows, and still have people to spare to work on stuff like raids or fractals (even if in reduced capacity). Now it seems they are barely able to work either on expansion (in "all hands" mode") or on maybe 2 concurrent LS projects (which is why we were getting only LS1 remake with long delays, and are still waiting for LS6 to start. And why EoD ended up quite lackluster for an expansion).

It's exactly that reduced capacity that is likely the cause of them seemingly downsizing on content releases (because the more i think on it, the more it seems to me like this one is another, after IBS, attempt at downsizing work levels for GW2 without officially admitting this).

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The current proposed model they are going for is something in the in the middle of what players were asking for.

1. The common complaints about "missing" Living World content and thus having to "pay" for it often accompanied by:"I bought the last expansion, the LW content should come for free with it". There you have it, LW followup content is now tied to the previous expansion

2. focus on larger content drops instead of smaller ones. Not sure this will pan out, it seems to work for other similar sized games. Not having actual BIG expansions could come to bite the game in the future, time will tell

3. The common statement:"I would pay for content XYZ". Well now you can.

4. The common:"We want to pay for content, not gem store stuff". Well now you can.

5. Minor expansions now deliver more possibilities for players to "return" if they are large enough to create buzz (without the additional cost of buying LW episodes retroactively). The additional content types (spvp, fractals, strikes, wvw, balance updates, etc.) serviced will round out the players targeted.

Overall this approach can go well if the content provided is of enough quality and frequency. It definitely will be more expensive for the "I have only bought expansions" crowd.

The current designed roadmap and shift of focus does seem to indicate that the developers agree with the notion that focusing ONLY on story and pve Living World is not sufficient to keep the game healthy. Something players from niche content have been advocating for years.

On points 3 and 4, I'd be thrilled to pay for more content.  This announcement seems to indicate that we'll be receiving less content, not more.

[thetwothousand.5049]

12 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

How exactly are they going to accomplish this by just changing the model of when (ex. yearly instead of every other year) we pay for content? An increase in production speed with more varied content that is "better" and more consistent is something you can only achieve by either hiring more staff and expanding the studio (as opposed to the recent layoffs) or dropping a significant amount of other content (PvP, WvW, raids, fractals etc..) on the cutting-room floor in favor of what they believe we actually want, which is seemingly what they've been doing for years hence the neglect of rest of the game in favor of open-world.

Ultimately they will be making more money off of us by doing this (obviously, that's the point) but unless they reinvest that back into the studio (unlikely) I fail to see how this is a good thing content-wise because realistically the same amount of people can only produce so much in a given year. The only real advantage that I see from this is the "varied content" because like ESO, having more expansions allows them to spread their teams out and tell more smaller-scale stories rather than 1 extremely large 10-year long dragon arc.

I take it you've not looked at the Anet listings anytime in the last year then? Anet is doing exactly what you are claiming they aren't - staffing up and quite noticeably across several disciplines. I also think you're underestimating the impact that having consistency in departments will have in content delivery. Having someone that is dedicated to working on say WvW and staying in that role throughout the calendar year will result in more WvW content. Certainly more than having someone in the role for a few months, pausing their project to pull them into an expansion, and then returning months or a year later. And that's assuming that person even gets put back into the same role.

You also bring up layoffs, which are not a factor here at all. The most recent layoffs Anet staff saw were back in 2019. The layoffs you're probably referring to were specifically NCSoft staff that have been confirmed internally and externally to not be working on GW2, so no impact what so ever.

So again to sum up Anet is hiring more people, to stay focused on more types of content and improvements for the game without the constant priority churns, and with the current market forecasts have no risk of additional staff loss. The increase in money we will be spending, which again will be $10-20 per YEAR, can be logically assumed to directly support those efforts which will create a better game. I say again, well worth it in my opinion.

[Cyninja.2954]

22 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Remember, that at the later half of HoT to PoF timeline, they were capable of doing an expansion, while at the same time keeping up 3 paralell LS workflows, and still have people to spare to work on stuff like raids or fractals (even if in reduced capacity). Now it seems they are barely able to work either on expansion (in "all hands" mode") or on maybe 2 concurrent LS projects (which is why we were getting only LS1 remake with long delays, and are still waiting for LS6 to start. And why EoD ended up quite lackluster for an expansion).

It's exactly that reduced capacity that is likely the cause of them seemingly downsizing on content releases (because the more i think on it, the more it seems to me like this one is another, after IBS, attempt at downsizing work levels for GW2 without officially admitting this).

The later half of the HoT timeline, you mean after the 9 months of content drought post HoT? The time when fractal releases dropped to 1 per 2 years, same as raids (and eventually stopped all together, last fractal was released about 2 years and 4 months ago). The time when the WvW alliance system was announced only to get dropped seconds later? Or was this when the release cadence dropped from 1 living world episode per 2-3 months to 3-4 months? Was it the content drought after Season 4? There are tons of gaps which explain how resources were spent yet still were insufficient even to provide only open world content.

The most "PvE open world content" the game ever saw was right during that time, at the expense of nearly EVERY other content type in the game.

While I wouldn't go as far as assuming that resources have drastically increased for the entire game, I'd wager that the developer resources are about the same now, maybe slightly higher, ever since the layoffs. It's just that the focus is not ONLY open world. Sucks for players who only enjoy open world content, better news for everyone else.

Not great, great would be overall a massive increase of developer resources, but that can only happen if the game continues to succeed upwards. This more balanced take is hopefully exactly the right direction.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Andy.5981]

A good balanced move by Anet. Hopefully the Development teams will have more time to work on features rather than the all hands to the deck approach of an impending Expansion release.

Hell if they charge £100 a year for all of this I'm happy with that. Its not even one decent cup of coffee here in the UK per week!

[Nomad.4301]

17 minutes ago, thetwothousand.5049 said:

I take it you've not looked at the Anet listings anytime in the last year then? Anet is doing exactly what you are claiming they aren't - staffing up and quite noticeably across several disciplines. I also think you're underestimating the impact that having consistency in departments will have in content delivery. Having someone that is dedicated to working on say WvW and staying in that role throughout the calendar year will result in more WvW content. Certainly more than having someone in the role for a few months, pausing their project to pull them into an expansion, and then returning months or a year later. And that's assuming that person even gets put back into the same role.

For what it's worth I hope you're right and they are expanding to produce more content, even if it's at a slightly higher overall cost, hell even if they just somehow return to post PoF levels of output through sheer management improvements it'll be an improvement. I'm just left jaded by other studios that have followed a similar model like ESO and SWToR and end up releasing 2-3 hour long "DLCs" for $15-20 every few months and even Anet themselves have pivoted several times following announcements like this in the past (Icebrood).

Like i said in a previous post I'm not opposed to spending money, I'd just rather get more for more and not less for more.  

[Kalocin.5982]

I don't think a lot of people mind paying a bit more. Seems like the common worry is that either there's going to be less content overall as expansions are just living world with extra steps, or that it'll cost more for what might be inadequate content. 

 

My personal worry is that it'll start feeling closer to a subscription game if they expansions are small, frequent and more bite sized, especially with still putting stuff into the cash shop.

 

A lot of people seem to think that when it comes to subscription games people keep it active all year long but usually my friends and I only come back for a month or two during the patch cycles for FFXIV (same goes with content for streaming services and what not). GW2 might start competing with that but without the "meaty" expansions ever on the horizon. Not sure if I'd like that.

 

One of the benefits of those sub games is that if I take an extended break from them to play other games, I actually get multiple patches under one month. For GW2 under this new model it actually might end up being more expensive for me (alongside any cash shop purchases) in the long run ironically. Ah well, still have to see what's coming and probably too soon to judge.

[thetwothousand.5049]

6 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

For what it's worth I hope you're right and they are expanding to produce more content, even if it's at a slightly higher overall cost, hell even if they just somehow return to post PoF levels of output through sheer management improvements it'll be an improvement. I'm just left jaded by other studios that have followed a similar model like ESO and SWToR and end up releasing 2-3 hour long "DLCs" for $15-20 every few months and even Anet themselves have pivoted several times following announcements like this in the past (Icebrood).

Like i said in a previous post I'm not opposed to spending money, I'd just rather get more for more and not less for more.  

And I totally get where you're coming from, and believe me if I thought this was just a naked cash grab I'd be first in line with torch and pitchfork in hand.

But the details that they have laid out, combined with the management changes they've made and my own operational knowledge leads me to firmly believe that this is the best course of action for the game and the studio.

I'll also repeat something I said in my first post; this is a new Anet team steering the ship now, and in the year or so they've had control of the game they have made specific promises of deliverables to the community and followed through on every single one. They've done the same thing today, and I trust that they will deliver on these promises and that the game will better off for it due to their stewardship.

[Felipe.1807]

Not really thrilled about this to be honest, my initial reaction was just they gonna call Living World their expansions and charge for it...seems bad to be honest...gotta wait and see. Guess would be willing to do it if the quality raises, like, less gem store stuff and more in game things to be obtained, and for the love god, give new weapons new animations as well, I dont think its fair to copy paste the same animations over and over, maybe I am just spoiled by Black Desert, but come on, GW2 can do it better.

[Astralporing.1957]

34 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The later half of the HoT timeline, you mean after the 9 months of content drought post HoT?

Yes. The reorganization that created the expansion team working independently from the LS teams (and the "all the other works" team) happened around the time of the April rework that ended the drought.

34 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Was it the content drought after Season 4?

The height of the work efficiency was LS3, not 4. LS4 was when they started shifting a lot of their devs to other, non-GW2 projects. Which resulted in IBS, because they ended up with massively reduced workforce no longer capable of pulling more than one project at the same time. So, about what we have now.

[Iason Evan.3806]

I haven't played in years and they should have done this years ago. 

 

It's like when I was asking for skill splits at launch. 

 

Also, where's the Ranger pet rework Colin said was being worked on when I asked him at ComiCon 2011 before the game launched and I played a demo of the game?

[Aelin.9317]

6 hours ago, Jirian.7512 said:

why "no living world"? sounds more like "now your living world will be called expansions and will cost moneyz" to me

I do find it odd how much people expect for free in this game, coming from ffxiv any story content from major expansions is paid for. If you want to do the patch content you need the expansion. And if you missed the living world when it came out like myself and other new players, you pay for it. 

Seems better to me for people that come to the game later, buying all the expansions and living world seasons all at once was not cheap. I wanted to do the story in order and finding out I had seasons to buy in between was not a nice surprise at all. 

I am quite hopeful that with the new content cadence we get more consistent updates. I was happy to see we get another map soon. I do hope they scale up the size of their team if the game keeps doing well and they can create more content in the same amount of time.