celestial gear (wvw)

[Dawdler.8521]

7 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

In like Flynn! But do we have to PvD doors or are there also no gates?

There's no objectives.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

58 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

Add "no target-caps week" to the list and you've got my vote.

Me too me too! Oh my goodness, let slip the Dogs of War!

[TheGrimm.5624]

So we replace all maps with the failed version of Drakkar. lol, I admit I took a roamer WvW Scapper build into this event after I heard what happens if it fails and it was glorious. People on voice were asking what I was doing while I was giggling like a mad Charr. Told them and laughter followed. I think people beat that event now, may have to pay it another visit with another roamer build if it still has chances to fail.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_Drakkar

"If the event fails, then players in the Den of Whispers will become hostile to each other for 10 seconds."

[Mistwraithe.3106]

Personally I feel balancing should be done by making small tweaks, reviewing the results, then making more small tweaks. So for something like this I think the solution would be to slightly nerf Celestial, maybe a 5% drop in stats or similar. Then see how it plays out. If Celestial is too OP still it gets another small nerf.

I saw a comment earlier suggesting that the light armor classes (Ele, Necro, Mesmer) rely on Celestial more to be competitive with the other classes. If that is the case then small tweaks to buff them slightly might be appropriate.

And so on...

[shrew.3059]

On 3/1/2023 at 3:00 AM, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

Personally I feel balancing should be done by making small tweaks, reviewing the results, then making more small tweaks. So for something like this I think the solution would be to slightly nerf Celestial, maybe a 5% drop in stats or similar. Then see how it plays out. If Celestial is too OP still it gets another small nerf.

I saw a comment earlier suggesting that the light armor classes (Ele, Necro, Mesmer) rely on Celestial more to be competitive with the other classes. If that is the case then small tweaks to buff them slightly might be appropriate.

And so on...

This is reasonable in theory, but in practice the tricky part is operationalising “too OP”. How do we measure the target of our nerfs/buffs? It can’t simply be anecdotal, but I struggle to see what kind of metric you could use that wouldn’t just favour some other stat combination. An obvious case would be if Celestial was the de facto choice for every profession in every role, but that’s not what we’re talking about here, is it? If you look at the current WvW, is Celestial overrepresented? By that standard, are any professions overrepresented? What about underrepresented?

The problem with coming to the forums for nerfs in the sake of balance is that balance is achieved holistically, not just for the one thing that’s annoying for you. I wonder how many people would be happy to have their target nerfed but also their own profession nerfed in order to achieve balance?

[Goldenmouth.3261]

celestial stats is a joke lemme fart some condi cleanse with my reaper and and win a 1v3 against celestial stats. celestial stats used to be a meme we used them for fun before the buffs now everyone uses it not just those specific classes you talking about just cos its more useful on them. If you kill the enemy it should be cos u have more experience in the game class vs other classes not cos of your stats on a gear. Balance? is that even a word in the vocabulary of WvW?  +30 max stat on cele. players should spend time to get better not gold (even though boost gives free celestial gear)

[ZTeamG.4603]

28 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

This is reasonable in theory, but in practice the tricky part is operationalising “too OP”. How do we measure the target of our nerfs/buffs? It can’t simply be anecdotal, but I struggle to see what kind of metric you could use that wouldn’t just favour some other stat combination. An obvious case would be if Celestial was the de facto choice for every profession in every role, but that’s not what we’re talking about here, is it? If you look at the current WvW, is Celestial overrepresented? By that standard, are any professions overrepresented? What about underrepresented?

 

Definitely one point against celestial nerfs is that a lot of the classes that are good with celestial would be unviable or barely viable without it. Right now, the meta is split into:

-Classes that are strong and survivable enough in power builds with berserkers/marauders. Usually these are power classes that hit like a truck and nearly one-shot builds that aren't running celestial. They usually are classes that have a lot of survival options, such as invulns, blocks, or stealth, built into the class. Off the top of my head the common ones I see are thieves, willbenders, heralds. 

-Condi classes, where other stat combos can work but celestial is usually the best choice. A lot of these are classes that lack survivability without the tankiness from celestial.

 

I still stand by my previous comment that the best way to nerf celestial is to rework how +stat buffs work, changing them into "+__% of stat from gear" buffs. IE instead of might giving +30 power it gives you a "+__% of your unboosted power stat" that would equal 30 on a dedicated power combo like Berserker's.

[shrew.3059]

2 minutes ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

I still stand by my previous comment that the best way to nerf celestial is to rework how +stat buffs work, changing them into "+__% of stat from gear" buffs. IE instead of might giving +30 power it gives you a "+__% of your unboosted power stat" that would equal 30 on a dedicated power combo like Berserker's.

It’s probably worth re-evaluating how all stats are balanced against each other, assuming this hasn’t already been done. In PvE there are occasionally complaints about how Power is dependent on two stats (Precision and Ferocity) whereas Condition Damage is dependent on just one (Expertise). This, the claim goes, allows condition builds to be tankier without sacrificing as much DPS. I don’t know if the maths bears this out, but if so, it would be an example of a wonky stat system that hasn’t found a balance yet.

I assume the complaints about Celestial originate from small scale PvP encounters, but in a way, this approach makes perfect sense; having a fully hybridised stat spread gives you a general flexibility in a context where you can never be sure what you’ll face. This makes two things clear to me: a) if only certain professions tend to use (or “abuse”, if such a word is applicable) Celestial, is it that they get more out of it than other classes or lose more if they don’t, and b) how strange it is to accuse people who use Celestial as paying-to-win as if superior players couldn’t just use Celestial as well and have all those advantages plus their “superior playing skills”.

[Yme.6145]

I think even the psycological effect of having slightly lowers stats on a celestial than the equivalent minor stats on a 4-attribute piece would encourage people to specialise a bit more and thus open themselves to more counter-play.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 2/28/2023 at 4:25 PM, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

Me too me too! Oh my goodness, let slip the Dogs of War!

add friendly  fire to the no limit cap :P

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

As I suggested a long time ago to fix for this is to rework Celestial to behave in a similar way to four-stat items, where the more stats you have on the item, the weaker the distribution on extra stats. This would effectively rework Celestial into a hybrid damage set with only a moderate amount of defense:

Tier 1: Power, Precision, Ferocity

Tier 2: Condition Damage, Expertise, Vitality

Tier 3: Toughness, Healing Power, Concentration

 

This would effectively balance it in WvW by greatly reducing its tanking ability, while still making it the superior choice compared to sets like Grieving or Viper's if you want to take some defense on your gear.

 

In PvE though, it would need a major stat increase to go alongside this change, since currently its really only used for the boon and condition duration which would be significantly reduced. I think the set is very important in this game mode because it allows players with lower skill levels to make competitive builds without always going into downstate, so if anything it could be even stronger there.

 

Its also the best set for healing and doing damage outside of raids (where Harrier's is used), so we also need to be careful with it in this regard so we don't end up with our supports back on Minstrel's.

Edited March 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[coro.3176]

3 hours ago, ZTeamG.4603 said:

Definitely one point against celestial nerfs is that a lot of the classes that are good with celestial would be unviable or barely viable without it. Right now, the meta is split into:

-Classes that are strong and survivable enough in power builds with berserkers/marauders. Usually these are power classes that hit like a truck and nearly one-shot builds that aren't running celestial. They usually are classes that have a lot of survival options, such as invulns, blocks, or stealth, built into the class. Off the top of my head the common ones I see are thieves, willbenders, heralds. 

-Condi classes, where other stat combos can work but celestial is usually the best choice. A lot of these are classes that lack survivability without the tankiness from celestial.

I think this is the crux of the issue. Attrition/DoT builds need to survive longer than burst/invuln builds by their nature. If the opponent has abundant cleanse, they need to survive even longer still. How do you want them to do it?

1. Nerf cele and give attrition builds invuln chaining instead? I don't think anyone likes this (see: catalyst complaints, or mirage complaints waaay back in the day)
2. Nerf cele and give attrition builds more sustain from other methods (eg. strong vampiric condi builds)
3. Nerf cele and just say kitten it. no attrition builds allowed (as in sPvP)
4. Nerf cele and also nerf burst builds' damage output
5. Don't nerf cele and keep the status quo

Edited March 2, 2023 by coro.3176

[shrew.3059]

Is the issue that Celestial allows players to survive longer than they should (whatever “should” means), or that it allows them to kill players they should not be able to (whatever “should not” means)?

I’m not particularly worried about a stat combination that gives a less skilled player small amounts of additional survival so long as it requires sacrifice in their damage. Maybe Celestial isn’t a big enough sacrifice, but it doesn’t seem like it’s letting terrible players dominate.

“It took me too long to kill this noob I dismounted on their way to a zerg” does not strike me as a compelling balance request. I expect to be killed by better players, but I expect to have that battle last long enough that I can figure out what’s going on. Go mow down pocket raptors for a power trip?

[RazieL.5684]

all i hear is crying that your 1shots need 2shots against some players...

[TheGrimm.5624]

If you find core or elite abilities that that are overperforming with a stat set, bring them up in the class subforums. Haven't we already seen what blanket nerfs across the board look like? Dreaded Feb nerf patch anyone? So do we just remove ferocity from all armor sets because a Dire player was killed by a Marauder player on some classes? That's kind of how this thread has read so far and we wondered why the noodle rule came into play. 

[Dawdler.8521]

10 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So do we just remove ferocity from all armor sets because a Dire player was killed by a Marauder player on some classes? That's kind of how this thread has read so far and we wondered why the noodle rule came into play. 

Except...

The correct comparison to what you just said is do we just remove 10% of the stats on 4 stat gear which currently gives 10% more stats than 3 stat gear?

The correct answer is yes. Yes we we do. 

[Zyreva.1078]

11 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Haven't we already seen what blanket nerfs across the board look like?

Well, we have seen what a blanket buff to something that doesn't need any buffs looks like and the best way to correct the resulting imbalance would be to revert said unneccessary buff instead of nerfing classes (not that nerfs to traits and skills shouldn't happen, but it has nothing to do with cele).

Cele gives almost 75% more stats than 3-stat gear! That's simply ridiculous, idk how anyone can defend such a glaring imbalance. You can not balance this disparity by "adjusting" traits and skills unless you completely kill each and every sort of hybrid build. And that's certainly not the preferable solution. Build diversity is a good thing, theorycrafting is fun, and cele ruins both.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[shrew.3059]

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Build diversity is a good thing, theorycrafting is fun, and cele ruins both.

Except that Celestial is not the best choice for every build. A glass cannon Power build wouldn’t be better off with Celestial, would it?

[solemn.9670]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:12 AM, shrew.3059 said:

This is reasonable in theory, but in practice the tricky part is operationalising “too OP”. How do we measure the target of our nerfs/buffs? It can’t simply be anecdotal, but I struggle to see what kind of metric you could use that wouldn’t just favour some other stat combination. An obvious case would be if Celestial was the de facto choice for every profession in every role, but that’s not what we’re talking about here, is it? If you look at the current WvW, is Celestial overrepresented? By that standard, are any professions overrepresented? What about underrepresented?

The problem with coming to the forums for nerfs in the sake of balance is that balance is achieved holistically, not just for the one thing that’s annoying for you. I wonder how many people would be happy to have their target nerfed but also their own profession nerfed in order to achieve balance?

? Celestial is very over-represented though. Extremely so. Maybe I misunderstood your post? 

[solemn.9670]

5 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

Except that Celestial is not the best choice for every build. A glass cannon Power build wouldn’t be better off with Celestial, would it?

No, but also yes, it would be. 1) Why would it be if you're trying to achieve a glass power DPS build, of course power will be more power damage but you're gonna die a LOT to cele players because their stats are simply way better and so are their builds lol

Cele just meshes way too well with almost every roaming spec. Notice I don't say build bc obv you have to change the build to fit with the cele stats better, but most of the time it's a superior option

2) sometimes it actually is way better and you actually do more damage than just taking zerk lol.

I'm sorry but this is just what-about-ism. It's still the best choice for most specs.

[solemn.9670]

18 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

If you find core or elite abilities that that are overperforming with a stat set, bring them up in the class subforums. Haven't we already seen what blanket nerfs across the board look like? Dreaded Feb nerf patch anyone? So do we just remove ferocity from all armor sets because a Dire player was killed by a Marauder player on some classes? That's kind of how this thread has read so far and we wondered why the noodle rule came into play. 

This thread: "gee I really don't like being heat-seeking missiled by supersonic jets while using biplanes, maybe this is a problem?????"

What you seem to think ppl in this thread are saying: "Jesus, I just got killed by a triplane, and I'm only flying a biplane! Nerf!!!!!!"

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

? Celestial is very over-represented though. Extremely so. Maybe I misunderstood your post? 

I can't agree or disagree, how is this a known thing? Is there a stat that Anet is sharing where we can check this or an API that a wesbite is using that is polling the builds the population is using? Mind you not registered users but total population.

I have 32 toons, 3 of those use Celi, the other 29 do not. So roughly 10% for myself, that doesn't seem over represented. 

[Fueki.4753]

16 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I can't agree or disagree, how is this a known thing? Is there a stat that Anet is sharing where we can check this or an API that a wesbite is using that is polling the builds the population is using? Mind you not registered users but total population.

I have 32 toons, 3 of those use Celi, the other 29 do not. So roughly 10% for myself, that doesn't seem over represented. 

Maybe they are basing their opinions on that gw2efficiency website, which is entirely opt-in. I don't know if it also reveals the gear choices of people who opted in though.

But I don't remember Arenanet themselves sharing such statistics (or any other kinds of statistics).

Edited March 3, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[MarzAttakz.9608]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Maybe they are basing their opinions on that gw2efficiency website, which is entirely opt-in. I don't know if it also reveals the gear choices of people who opted in though.

But I don't remember Arenanet themselves sharing such statistics (or any other kinds of statistics).

I've never seen any gear aggregation functionality that is publicly accessible on gw2efficiency (not to say it isn't there as a hidden feature) - nor a record of the gear/build template that was active at the time you were killed or killed a player.

That data aggregation would certainly be interesting to see though.

[schloumou.3982]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:27 PM, shrew.3059 said:

Is the issue that Celestial allows players to survive longer than they should (whatever “should” means), or that it allows them to kill players they should not be able to (whatever “should not” means)?

I’m not particularly worried about a stat combination that gives a less skilled player small amounts of additional survival so long as it requires sacrifice in their damage. Maybe Celestial isn’t a big enough sacrifice, but it doesn’t seem like it’s letting terrible players dominate.

“It took me too long to kill this noob I dismounted on their way to a zerg” does not strike me as a compelling balance request. I expect to be killed by better players, but I expect to have that battle last long enough that I can figure out what’s going on. Go mow down pocket raptors for a power trip?

I struggle to understand why you consider game balance from the skill floor point of view. The problems naturally become exponentially worse when you put cele in the hands of a decent player with an optimised build. They become virtually unkillable while maintaining relative good pressure. If you aren't bored to death from 20 min+ cele duels where nobody can win you are doing it wrong.