celestial gear (wvw)

[GenerationX.9178]

Celestial gear in wvw. It was removed from pvp and needs to be done to wvw. Its ruining roaming even more and even small scale fights. Celestial fights last for ever and if they are running a support well see you next match up. If you take burst  or condition builds to counter  it gets shut down because agian they have more sustian. I dont enjoy being pressured to play celestial because its (meta) and easy to play. I am pretty sure new players try wvw run into celestial cant obtian it yet because they are new and are overhelmed and dont try wvw agian. I am not the best player in the game but I can fight a decently vs celestial build but in experianced players hands different story. Normally I try +1 or more a celestial build then they get mad dm me about how bad I am and they were 1v3ing LOL. I am not sure why id willing want to 1v1 celestial build.  It hard to kill celestial builds why do you think so many people play them. At some points me and my roamer friends or small groups have had enough fighting and most them leave. I tend to still roam around, run into those builds and try to not fight and since I am only content they chase me down even though I dont even want to fight them. I dont exactly know what do about it, but its really frustrating. This I dont think is such a problem for zerg groups, but small scale and roaming its terrible. I fail to unstand one thing from the game, you have amazing skill animations and design why wouldnt you promote small scale battles where you can see whats happening and admire the awesome battle. Rather then oh dodge all red

circles. Probably wont get heard and all celestial players will tell me to just play celestial but worth try.

 

/end rant

[Dr Meta.3158]

I'm wondering if it would be easier if wvw was designed like castle sieges/territory wars from Lineage 2 in which they take place for a set 2 hours at specific dates. In those no one worries about 1v1s and small-scale pvp because all of it is large scale pvp over objectives whereas people who want to 1v1 do olympiad and people who want to do small scale go out to find people to kill in the open world.

In that way all the balance around small scale pvp can be relegated to spvp and balance around large scale pvp can be relegated to wvw. Spvp could also use a 1v1 ladder for people who want to do that as well.

[asterix.9614]

I don't think anyone will disagree with you, I was going to start a topic about cele gear as well. I think the main problem with celestial is the concentration stat as every class can trait to pump out a ton of boons. Main abuser of cele stats seem to be willbender, catalyst and vindicator (elite specs that spits out a lot of boons). Just having easy access to a tonne of might will mean they can dish out a tonne of damage (both power and condi) with little effort. Also, cele gives a decent amount of toughness and healing power, so that adds to the stupid amount of sustain and tankiness. However, I doubt anet will remove the stat for wvw as it effects only roamers, and I guess some people do need crutch builds lol. I am totally not bored of seeing super high mobility, cele tanky willbender 🙄 

Edited February 21, 2023 by asterix.9614

[Dr Meta.3158]

It might be more of an issue with the specific class design than the stats otherwise everyone would be using it on every class.

[Justine.6351]

23 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

It might be more of an issue with the specific class design than the stats otherwise everyone would be using it on every class.

Don't be giving people ideas.

[Fueki.4753]

I don't think it's even possible to remove Celestial from WvW, unless Arenanet completely removes it from the game or reworks WvW into using sPvP gear.

I doubt Arenanet would ever consider doing either.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Dawdler.8521]

21 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't think it's even possible to remove Celestial from WvW, unless Arenanet completely removes it from the game or reworks WvW into using sPvP gear.

I doubt Arenanet would ever consider doing either.

Achtually people shouldnt really use such a lazy gear setup in PvE so of course its possible.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

It might be more of an issue with the specific class design than the stats otherwise everyone would be using it on every class.

 cele needs a hefty shave in its total stats.

2 or 3 years ago they added conc and Expertise to cele. Instead of lowering the other values to keep to totalnumber of stats where it was, they just added conc and Expertise ontop for free, which lead to the most statbloated statallocation ever. And this is also the problem if you ask me. 

but we all need to sit down and realize... that wvw isnt balanced for smallscale. 

Personally i have made my inner piece with thinking that cele is a tool that anet gave to roamers to hold its ground in outnumbered situations... for example when you are 4 guys all running cele and there is a 10 man puggroup coming to take your tower....  there is a possible chance that the 4 celeguys will win this.

The same thing would be impossible with marauder, because numbers just matter so much nowadays...  BUT CELE CAN BRIDGE THIS GAP.

if you get into that mentality and finally start joining the other noobs that run cele... the grass is alot greener.

tldr: if you dont rune cele in 2023... are you even roaming?

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Fueki.4753]

22 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Achtually people shouldnt really use such a lazy gear setup in PvE so of course its possible.

That still doesn't mean they have any intention of removing it. And we have no reason to assume they'll ever have such intentions.

Outside their Magic Find rework, I don't remember them ever removing attribute combinations for equipment.

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 cele needs a hefty shave in its total stats.

2 or 3 years ago they added conc and Expertise to cele. Instead of lowering the other values to keep to totalnumber of stats where it was, they just added conc and Expertise ontop for free, which lead to the most statbloated statallocation ever. And this is also the problem if you ask me. 

but we all need to sit down and realize... that wvw isnt balanced for smallscale. 

Personally i have made my inner piece with thinking that cele is a tool that anet gave to roamers to hold its ground in outnumbered situations... for example when you are 4 guys all running cele and there is a 10 man puggroup coming to take your tower....  there is a possible chance that the 4 celeguys will win this.

The same thing would be impossible with marauder, because numbers just matter so much nowadays...  BUT CELE CAN BRIDGE THIS GAP.

if you get into that mentality and finally start joining the other noobs that run cele... the grass is alot greener.

tldr: if you dont rune cele in 2023... are you even roaming?

I think the push to celestial gear was for pve. The level 80 boost even rewards you celestial gear so you can play whatever build you want with a decent floor level of effectiveness before switching to more focused stats for end game. It is just with certain classes that it makes for very powerful open world and roaming builds. 

I don't think small scale wvw was taken into consideration at all because wvw is for large scale pvp. Small scale pvp is for spvp. Roaming is just a side hobby for enthusiasts for wvw as is dueling servers are for spvp and as is soloing legendary bosses is for pve. Its fun, its rewarding, its not intended, its not harmful, but don't expect it to be given attention. 

It would be nice is arenanet facilitated these playstyles more: some dark souls -esque occurrences in pvp to challenge solo players on build craft technical mastery. 1v1 ladders in spvp. Small incursion style objectives in wvw that can't be accessed by large numbers of players. But I don't think that'll happen any time soon if ever.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[RazieL.5684]

UAAAAAAAAA

My 1 shot build from stealth doesn't 1shot people because they use tanky stats

UAAAAAAAAA

People have a chance to actually respond to my 1shot build from stealth that instantly teleports on them from under the map without any warning

UAAAAAAAAA

If i don't 1shot my target my skill in the game is so limited i can't actually fight a prolonged fight that requires more than 2 buttons

UAAAAAAAAA

[Hotride.2187]

Hey look, another cele thread. Almost like its a problem.

Just go play conquest, no point in trying to convince players who hide behind stats and perma boons. They'll always tell you its fine cause they killed a few bad players on it and thought they are really skilled after fighting another cele build for 30 min.

Wvw at this point is only good for afking while watching or reading something. Even zerg fights are starting to take too long...

[GenerationX.9178]

@RazieL.5684 we dont all roam or small scale thief....stealth is abused one 1 class. thief. also youd be suprised how easy it is to shut down a power build. you litrally need weakness protection and some food. which is pretty easy to do. also if you know whats happening you can dodge.

Edited February 21, 2023 by GenerationX.9178

[RazieL.5684]

@GenerationX.9178 ok lets make a deal... balance all the broken braindead kitten that takes ~50% of a power builds health with 1 button and i assure you more people will start playing more glassy... until then i give you the same advice you give me... if you want to shut down a cele build all you need is some cleanses on your build and you literally shut down their whole damage compared to a power build with weakness because after a cleanse a condition doesn't exist while power with weakness still does damage... and you know... dodge...

Edited February 21, 2023 by RazieL.5684

[Bizgurk.5639]

I still hope for Demolisher gear being added to Pve/WvW

[GenerationX.9178]

@RazieL.5684 Problem I is cele hits like zerker and condition because the stats are to strong.

 

[Galmac.4680]

Guess this will be done right after preventing thieves bugging into towers and keeps. So never.

[RazieL.5684]

@GenerationX.9178 nice joke... i am open minded and was up for discussion but if you are just one of those people that uses hyperbole instead of being constructive i am not gonna waste my time for meaningless crybabies...

[TheGrimm.5624]

Cele stats work on Cele Core and Elites and fail elsewhere. Putting Cele on a power or condi core/elite is a waste. Say this as I have 32 toons with various builds. Using sPvP as a balance example is not a good one. sPvP is not expecting a fight to last more than 5 seconds so that's a terrible goal to point to in WvW where if a 60 v 60 lasted 5 seconds only, people would be raging since boon balls should mean immortality. Play tank, DPS, condi and Cele while roaming and no, disagree cele is not BiS nor tankiest. And limiting gear outs as they did in sPvP is a terrible idea since its not a 5v5 on a 200 unit feature. sPvP is a training ground for WvW, in sPvP you may not have to fight 5v20 but in WvW you may need to and try and win. No to limiting builds in WvW. -10 here. sPvP should also not have removed options since it limited our training grounds in hope of more streaming options.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 hours ago, GenerationX.9178 said:

@RazieL.5684 Problem I is cele hits like zerker and condition because the stats are to strong.

 

You never met any pure zerker or pure condi builds in WvW, did you? Time to leave spawn area.
Willyblender, Teef(all), Soulbeast, Untamed, Virtuoso, Berserker can fold you within seconds if you're "unlucky" and they still have high sustain.
Condi Necromancer, condi Mirage, condi deadeye, condi druid, condi soulbeast will make you question your life decisions about purchasing gw2 with ridiculous condies and sustain.
That's x vs celestial situations, of course there's a lot more builds that need balancing in WvW.
Celestial is blank paper at the end of day, the root problem are classes that use it, not the stats themselves.

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Cele stats work on Cele Core and Elites and fail elsewhere. Putting Cele on a power or condi core/elite is a waste.

And minstrel doesnt work either, did you know that too? Its really shocking.

Yeah you cant slap cele on everything and get better results. The builds you can slap cele on are however insanely tanky and still do very good dmg. But I'm sure thats no problem cause if you slap cele on a power glass cannon it doesnt work.

What sort of an argument is this?

[Sahne.6950]

I still believe, a set that has ~+40% more stats than other sets is a problem.

a full ascended 3stat-set will give you 3302 Totalstats.  http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAYZ2AA-zRIYRUwDAA-e

While a full Celestialset will give you 5751 Totalstats. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAYZ2AA-zxIY1oiHAA-e

THE DIFFERENCE IS MASSIVE!

 

When we now add 25 might to Celestial, you reach 2389 Power and 1389 ConditionDamage. While a Fullmarauderset has exactly 2172 power...... 

But marauder has 0 toughness.... 0 concentration... 0 healingpower... 0 Conditiondamage... 0 Expertise....  and now comes my favorite part.... Marauder also only has the same ammount of critdamage that Celestial has....

 

If a marauderbuild and a Celebuild with (25might) use the same skill and both crit... THE CELESTIALBUILD WILL DEAL MORE DAMAGE. And that is something that not many people realize.

The Marauderbuild begins to have more power, when it has 8 or more Mightstacks. But maintaining 8 or more mightstacks is a hard task for alot of marauderbuilds.

Marauder will deal more damage in the longrun, simply because of the critchance. But in certain situations, the Celebuild will hit harder...  When Cele and Marauder fight eachother, the Celebuild will "hit harder", as it also has a ton of Toughness, while Marauder has non.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[GenerationX.9178]

Problem is celestial does to much, you get all the pros no cons. I rather fight a player that can either  condtion,power or is support. Not all of the above...If you decied to spec more tanky you should lose something. Balance to me.  @Sahne.6950 I know the difference in stats but somehow people still are able to burst on cele willbender for example can hit for 15k whirling. Revanant, Ranger, Necromancer ect still hits high for a celestial build.

Edited February 22, 2023 by GenerationX.9178

[Gehenna.3625]

I think the problem is not celestial gear so much but the point that you don't need a lot of certain stats to be very effective. For example, concentration...you really should need 100% from concentration to maintain boons 100% of the time. Case in point: FBs need concentration to give 50% boon duration to be able to maintain quickness 100% of the time. That should be 100% boon duration from concentration. Just that change alone will make celestial gear less interesting.

And then there's might as well...I think might should be nerfed to 10 stacks as it is. With 25 stacks it just makes up the difference way too easily. And that's not even going into the fact that might increases both strike and condition damage. It's just too good of a boon really. 

[RaveOnYou.2819]

so lets think we delete, or haed nerf cele? what will happen to light armor builds use cele, i will say u will less likely see in the arena. if u look at metabattle roaming builds, most cele user classes are mesmers, necros, eles. and there is no build beside cele top tier for them. however there are lots of non cele alternatives for other classes. if anet nerf cele then they should give to light armor classes some core advantges to overcome it ie. more mobility, more stealth, more boons etc. its kittening unbelievle that one of the most mobile class willbender is high armor, high boon, high invul class.

 

give my free +300 toughness and/or +3000 health like other classes then i wont wear cele in my elementalist builds.

Edited February 22, 2023 by RaveOnYou.2819