How much and what type of stealth do you like in wvw?

[Xenesis.6389]

How much and what type of stealth do you like in wvw?

Sub choices with additional stipulations, pick whatever is closest to your personal preference on stealth.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[hanabal lecter.2495]

I feel like current engi and mesmer stealth is fine. Not overly abudnant and locked behind utility skills. Once it's just on weapon skills and spammabke it becomes a problem. Stealth is very strong and even stronger in group play it should be limited more.

[joneirikb.7506]

Tough choice between no and low stealth/mesmer. Went with low simply because I think it would be way too much work for ANet to balance the game for removing stealth entirely. But it really is one of the most annoying things to play against in the game.

[kash.9213]

Not on the list but I'd take the same stealth mechanics as right now but with some kind of proximity visual filter within some radius of enemies but still not targetable. 

[Fueki.4753]

As long as Stealth doesn't get substantially reworked, I'm firmly against the mechanic.

Said substantial rework could be one of these examples:

Making Stealth people visible at decently close proximity

significantly reduced movement speed

any damage received revealing the player

Edited March 27, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Burnfall.9573]

I'm completely in agreement with Fueki, without having any stealth rework, remove it.

[Morden Kain.3489]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

any damage received revealing the player

I love this idea.  Or maybe a trail of blood?  I mean seriously, I hit you with bleed damage, there should be trails of blood as long as the condition exists!

[Gorani.7205]

I am not completely happy with the option I chose (low stealth - more counters), but I firmly believe that it has to be less than now (but won't take it away, too).

Edited March 27, 2023 by Gorani.7205

[Gehenna.3625]

I'm against classes having access to perma stealth. They can have multiple stealth skills but either with low duration or high CD  and at most they can be stealthed for 50-60% of the time. The more stealth options they equip the less DPS they do as well.  There has to be a trade off.

However, stealthing out of combat should be an elite skill with a CD of at least 60 seconds, with limited duration and only then can they get superspeed and condition cleanse upon stealthing. So the regular stealth skills do not allow you to break off from combat.

Stealth should be used to stealthily approach a target, not to use stealth as multiple get out of jail cards and have all kinds of mobility options on top.

That's how I see it. You tell me where that fits on your list of options.

[Eudaimonia.8695]

I don't really mind stealth in and of itself and I doubt it'll get reworked this far into the game.

 

Cloaking waters, however, is just gimmicky and should be removed. It's just broken if a zerg abuses it (thank god most don't because of its gimmickiness) and makes for very one-sided fights.

[Xenesis.6389]

19 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I'm against classes having access to perma stealth. They can have multiple stealth skills but either with low duration or high CD  and at most they can be stealthed for 50-60% of the time. The more stealth options they equip the less DPS they do as well.  There has to be a trade off.

That's how I see it. You tell me where that fits on your list of options.

The some stealth options.

 

Quote

However, stealthing (to get) out of combat should be an elite skill with a CD of at least 60 seconds, with limited duration and only then can they get superspeed and condition cleanse upon stealthing. So the regular stealth skills do not allow you to break off from combat.

Stealth should be used to stealthily approach a target, not to use stealth as multiple get out of jail cards and have all kinds of mobility options on top.

I assume you mean regular stealth would never take you out of combat, and the elite would immediately get you out of combat. But it's the rule of combat in general that getting to a certain distance from your opponent takes you out of combat, regardless if in stealth or not. All the extra stuff like superspeed and cleanse is from thief traits(mesmers mass invis got their superspeed nerfed out), which now apply on entering or exiting stealth, would all have to be reworked. Elite skills would need to be given/reworked/moved(mass invis/shadow meld) on mesmer and thieves, and possibly added to rangers since they can get stealth from longbow and traps with runes, and engineers, and I guess dragonhunters with traps with runes.

I'm not sure the changes to the stealth mechanics need to be that extreme, maybe they could do something else like if you go out of combat while under stealth from a certain skill/rune, then that skill gets an additional 60sec cooldown added to it.

 

Overall I agree that low duration high cooldown stealth skills are ok, spammable ones are a no, additional bonuses are a no, stealth should simply be a tool to get in and out of combat and not a spammable/damaging/bonus farming mechanic. And if they're going to add stuff like superspeed (while trying to be super "quiet" and super "stealthy") and cleansing in and out of it then they need to add additional rules like getting popped out of stealth from damage, or blood trails. Kinda stupid that someone could be stealth inches in front of you bleeding the kitten out and you can't tell they're there, I mean even the Predator stealth had some visual tells where they were. 🤭

[hanabal lecter.2495]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

As long as Stealth doesn't get substantially reworked, I'm firmly against the mechanic.

Said substantial rework could be one of these examples:

Making Stealth people visible at decently close proximity

significantly reduced movement speed

any damage received revealing the player

Wasn't part of the options, but yes I would be inclined to agree with this sentiment as well.

[Xenesis.6389]

40 minutes ago, hanabal lecter.2495 said:

Wasn't part of the options, but yes I would be inclined to agree with this sentiment as well.

Hmm yeah I suppose I should have included a complete rework option instead of just an outright no option.

I added the option, but won't be able to change answers already given.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[aspirine.6852]

Stealth, but for recon only. You should not be able to attack from stealth.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

     Stealth is mostly just very annoying as there are not many relatively good reveals spread across the classes, many get access to ONE and sometimes that is part of an elite spec. The problem with these not being very general skills is most people don't have them slotted unless they know they are about to fight a stealther,  and any decent stealther will be on them before they know that and can adjust. Spear of Justice is an example of a good reveal.

     Group stealth is super strong and I don't use it but just have my group retreat when an enemy uses it until it wears off, not exciting for either group.

[Xenesis.6389]

7 minutes ago, Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:

     Stealth is mostly just very annoying as there are not many relatively good reveals spread across the classes, many get access to ONE and sometimes that is part of an elite spec. The problem with these not being very general skills is most people don't have them slotted unless they know they are about to fight a stealther,  and any decent stealther will be on them before they know that and can adjust. Spear of Justice is an example of a good reveal.

     Group stealth is super strong and I don't use it but just have my group retreat when an enemy uses it until it wears off, not exciting for either group.

There should be at least one reveal skill for every core class, on the utility skills, so no matter what you're playing you could have one slot for it, not restricted to some elite spec, some hidden trait in some trait line you're forced to use, or some class mechanic. Sic'em and On my mark are pretty much the examples that every core class should have at least one reveal skill of.

[Dagger.2035]

I think a good start would be to have stealth attacks always apply reveal.  Then we could remove the 1 second stealth attack cool down.  This change makes mistakes more punishing for stealth builds since they won’t get free retries when they miss.  It is also a buff for more aggressive thief builds which don’t rely on stealth.  If they miss a stealth attack they can auto attack immediately since they would be revealed.  This is better than being locked out of using auto attacks for a second.

 

I’ve proposed this before on the thief forum, but most thieves use stealth so they don’t want to hear it.  I also feel that many of today’s thieves didn’t play prior to the stealth attack cooldown so they are not aware of how much it affects build options.  If the cooldown was removed some aggressive blind spam builds from the core era could make a possible comeback.
 

I also proposed that Shadow Meld shouldn’t remove reveal years ago because counter to counters are not intuitive and create messy gameplay.  Thieves should be punished when an opponent reveals them.  Instead of fixing that skill, they proceeded to nerf other parts of thief for years before they finally admitted Shadow Meld was the source of the thief “slipperiness” problem.

 

 

[Alsandar.7420]

LOVED group stealth before the nerf. It was just fun. I think it’s fun when a Zerg disappears and you’re like “omg where they gonna attack from?”

 

Stop focusing on fairness, balance, and winning.

 

It’s a game. Fun, surprise, and silliness is a good thing

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 3/26/2023 at 1:51 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

How much and what type of stealth do you like in wvw?

Sub choices with additional stipulations, pick whatever is closest to your personal preference on stealth.

I admit on my thieves I uses less stealth due to people that macro it. Stealth by itself isn't bad, its the subset of people that will game it that makes it annoying. So the mechanic isn't bad, its just how easy it is to abuse it due to macro's that is annoying.

[Coldtart.4785]

The Anet that made GW1 understood how much invis a pvp rpg should have.

[Johje Holan.4607]

1 hour ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

The Anet that made GW1 understood how much invis a pvp rpg should have.

Exactly!  Because let’s be honest. Stealth in GW2 isn’t really stealth, it’s invisibility. 
And so my answer is zero, none, zilch, nada, zippo, 0.0

Edited March 28, 2023 by Johje Holan.4607

[SleepyBat.9034]

Stealth is only an issue if the build that has it can hit like a truck or if it has tons of it.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The main problem with stealth is the reveal mechanic is not really a counterplay mechanic, it's more of a punishment to the user for screwing up. Reveal is not evenly distributed across classes and some require a target making them wholly impractical except for some very troll warriors/engis.  They're usually on utterly random skills of which zero thought was put into it. Though most skills are designed for pve of course.

The engineer trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On is one of the very few good examples of an attempt of real counterplay because you can reveal stealthed targets by hitting them. But it does require going into a very niche tree.

Also if you ask me I really think the game should tell you if you did damage to a stealthed target; it's kinda stupid you get 0 feedback.  Yes I know some players are good at the magical guessing game but still. I don't really think they'll ever change this though so moot point.

 

And then you have weird stuff like  watchtowers but I hate that even when not playing stealth.

And then you have target painters which are ok but still a bandaid solution and cost supply.

As annoying as stealth is on thief, I resent it the most being used in large scale where entire zergs can sneak up to people depending on how tryhard they spam it. Though it is better now as opposed to like last year where like every fight was dependent on the players landing a good stealth bomb.

High mobility is also an issue but that's just an issue with the game as a whole, and EoD in particular has made it much worse in that regards.

Of course the most impacted class here will be the thief, and then it's important to ask what they would do if changes are made. And honestly some other classes are just as irritating with their own stealth based crap.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[joneirikb.7506]

I'm wondering if having combos, especially Light field, do reveal as part of their triggers might have helped having more dynamic counter play to stealth? Possibly others, Fire? To divide it more evenly around.

I'd also second another common complaint, that stealth shouldn't also be fast. Something like Half speed in stealth, and be immune to swift and superspeed. At least while in combat. If they stealth in combat, there should be a counter-play of just running away while they're hiding.

[oatsnjuices.1698]

Most of you want to zerg with no consequences, but spec op is there and it should stay. Gorilla warfare is a great feature of this game, and the army will never nerf a sniper because it sucks to fight against. Slot a roaming build and fight back. Sooner or later you will die much less. 

I cant beat a good sa thief, but if im in group i can ignore them until the target is on them. There is nothing wrong with that class, but there is everything wrong with turning a pvp centric game mode into pve just because the silverwastes are too boring. 

 I dont play sa thief but i know a few things about roaming. Celestial anything outheals anything. Catalist in the right hands can kill 5 at a time, I have seen them in guards unstoppable. Aura ele makes 5 players like 10 in roaming. Druid can kill multiples and thief cant really stop it if someone competent is playing it. Ranger is super dangerous in the right hands, it can 100-0 any thief if that thiefs 1 or 2 stunbreaks are gone, im not complaining about that ranger that kills me in 5 seconds becaause i cant outdodge his 1 wolf pack and onslaught. I dont know his name but he is OP. The new celestial durability rune salvation renegade is virtually unkillable by thief, it just heals so much, so does willbender. And fresh air weaver, in the right hands, is just gnarly! And some warrior builds, it takes 10 to kill because stunbreaks, nikes, resistance, and good rotations.

Edited March 28, 2023 by oatsnjuices.1698