Can anyone explain the logic behind EoD pets stats?

[Arheundel.6451]

Maybe I am missing something important that I can't see and that's why I am making this thread: no matter what angle I look at it, my conclusion is always the same, the stats used by EoD pets are intended sabotage- extremely low toughness, pitiful F2 and awkward animations.

The way I see it, they didn't want to make the pets viable for competitive play for fear of being forced to balance them later, " I want you to use those HoT pets forever no matter what" , but then again if I try to use those same pets in PvE..they are equally useless there and no worth using....so the end plan was to make EoD pets a complete waste of space overall.

It's clear that whoever worked on soulbeast/druid.....left the company by the time Untamed was even a concept, let alone those...pets

[Beddo.1907]

I think they just didn't want to make another Iboga or Gazelle, not even thinking about PvP/WvW.
But obviously they overshot it and the skills didn't even need any nerf (if anything they need a buff).

Honestly if Turtle auto was flying faster and bite wasn't useless, it would be yet another great pet.
Wallow is not that far from usable, just more stats, WTiger needs stats and Phase Pounce CD reduction and Phoenix need A LOT of Vit and Tou + faster animations.

[Krispera.5087]

2 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I think they just didn't want to make another Iboga or Gazelle, not even thinking about PvP/WvW.

 

Even for PvE. It's exactly what they did.

 

Just by looking at the Wallow, you can clearly see they made it sure that Soulbeast won't be able to use the new pets. 

They made a conscious decision by making it a Supportive instead of Deadly pet and gave Vampiric Bite instead of Maul. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

20 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's clear that whoever worked on soulbeast/druid.....left the company by the time Untamed was even a concept, let alone those...pets

They did, was Irinieo who dev'd Druid, the staple pet that is smokescale, and I think quite a bit of Soulbeast.

9 hours ago, Krispera.5087 said:

They made a conscious decision by making it a Supportive instead of Deadly pet and gave Vampiric Bite instead of Maul. 

Yeah,  agree; I remember also complaining about Wallow not being Deadly last year at launch--makes no sense to be anything but Deadly considering it's F2 is condi/poison. 

Agree too about the pets in general...

Wallow F2 just applies poison and not anything else, when it should apply at least torment and probably slow or something.  It should also be deadly, as mentioned above.

Tiger's Phase Pounce is...I think it may be worse than Red Wyvern fire field and that's saying a LOT.  The Aegis is nice, but has to be timed super well because the roar is slow; the tiger is also a cat so it is glass cannon for no real gain.

Turtles bubble is good but the turtle is useless otherwise.  Slam can be an ok CC--the Untamed controlled one, because the turtle uses it so moronically it never hits if left to the AI.  Speaking of slam, it NEEDS to replace snap on soulbeast merge, full stop.  

Pheonix is...lmao.  The most glass cannon pet ever, an F2 that takes 40 years to use and hits nothing, and utterly useless otherwise.  Oh, it also has Dash to add salt to the wound--as Dash is a 1s detonate to make sure it hits nothing and isn't even a CC...despite us literally having E. Wyvern that has identical skills in terms of buffet/dash (even though it goes thru things with its dash like a crackhead).  

There never will be competency around balancing ranger pets, at least not in the near future.  I know this because of the Tail Swipe nerf, which was only usable on meme builds (teleburst untamed).  Oh, that and nerfing Iboga because it did too good of numbers on the PvE golem.  They touched nothing else.  

Edited April 3, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Zyreva.1078]

On 4/2/2023 at 8:25 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Phase Pounce CD reduction

That would make the white tiger worse. Phase pounce is a garbage ability and best not used at all. Would have been better if they gave the white tiger the same regular abilities as all the other cats.

[Beddo.1907]

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

That would make the white tiger worse. Phase pounce is a garbage ability and best not used at all. Would have been better if they gave the white tiger the same regular abilities as all the other cats.

I actually forgot how it worked and yeah you are actually right. (In my defense, the pet sucks, so I didn't use it much.)
I'd still try to salvage the ability over the original feline family skill.

[Mell.4873]

Outside of the Pheonix all new pets have some uses, at least as many as the other introduced expansion pets.

Turtle alone is amazing especially in WvW since Ranger has zero access to bubbles outside this.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Outside of the Pheonix all new pets have some uses, at least as many as the other introduced expansion pets.

Turtle alone is amazing especially in WvW since Ranger has zero access to bubbles outside this.

What use does the wallow have over other pets? It doesn't damage well and doesn't function well when merged with a soulbeast.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

What use does the wallow have over other pets? It doesn't damage well and doesn't function well when merged with a soulbeast.

Poison field is unique and can synergies with a few builds. It has a 10 second longer cooldown than the spider version but can last longer so good for burst.

I'm not really claiming it's good but just not useless like the Pheonix.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Kodama.6453]

Could very well be that they undertuned these on purpose, or "sabotage" as you call it.

Let's face it: ranger is a very special case in being the only class which gets added features to it's core with every expansion release. All other classes just and only get elite specs added, which just and only need to get balanced in their own context.

But ranger gets new pets with every release, which can get used by the new elite spec as well as any other pre-existing elite spec or even the core class. Balancing these therefore takes more effort. Especially if we consider the unique and special way soulbeast interacts with pets.

So yeah, they probably just made them weak to ensure that they don't become a balance problem they have to take care of later.

[Dadnir.5038]

18 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

So yeah, they probably just made them weak to ensure that they don't become a balance problem they have to take care of later.

Well, there are different level in being "weak". I would say that some aspects of EoD pet still manage to reach level that are astonishigly low.

For example, merged wallow vampiric bite is worse than bear's bite and pathetically bad compared to drake's chomp. I do get that it's the wallow's AA but even then how do you expect 76 hp/s to really matter in term of survivability for a pet? (if the poor thing could hit at a rate of 4 time per second, it probably would matter a little bit but that's not the case)

[Kodama.6453]

17 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

(if the poor thing could hit at a rate of 4 time per second, it probably would matter a little bit but that's not the case)

How fast is it's actual attack rate? Wiki says it has 1/4 cast time, but there is no note how fast the cast actually is.

And yeah, the heal is weak. But honestly, spammable life siphon effects tend to have these low values. Look at Vampiric Presence (just heals for 62 in shroud and even just 32 outside of it).

Battle scars just heal for 117 and are additionally limited by stack mechanic.

That the life siphon is low is not surprising.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

How fast is it's actual attack rate?

It's a pet so:

It's bound to pet animation making the attack rate slow (usually 1 per second)

Quickness don't work on him (this boon don't work on any pet for whatever reason)

 

Drake's Chomp can offer the drake more than 400 hp/s. And drake do have more health point than the wallow while it can also apply weakness.

You don't compare players character traits that can be supported by high attack rates and apply to all skills, to pets that are very limited by design. For a pet, this level of life siphon is no different than not having any life siphon.

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

They need to remove smokescale and rebalance all the other pets to each other. But that would require more effort than I'm sure they're willing to give to ranger.

[JPUlisses.8756]

All expansions have 5 pets I think. EOD only 4 so I think they will add one on these news stories.

[Mell.4873]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:12 AM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

They need to remove smokescale and rebalance all the other pets to each other. But that would require more effort than I'm sure they're willing to give to ranger.

It's really just a default filler Pet (due to stealth). What would be better if to provide another pet that can create a smoke field so it can compete with Smokescale.

[Sandzibar.5134]

Not just that though is it. The fact that due to its teleport its a pet that can actually hit players and do damage.

Same reason the "big boys" prefere untamed over druid/slb.

You can port your pet around so it can actually hit things no?

Try using a normal doggo in a fight versus a thief or willybender. Count how many times it gets to do damage.

Then remember that your professions baseline weapon dmg and stats are effectively reduced for the "privilege" of having this worthless pet mechanic.

Then feel depressed that 0 devs actually play or understand the shortcomings of ranger a in pvp context, and that things will never get better.

Then go back to waiting for RiotMMO or something else...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Sandzibar.5134
anet bad

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1. Phoenix is absolute garbage. Every single thing about this pet is not only bad, but completely dysfunctional.
2. Wallow is somehow a nerfed pig.
3. White Tiger is just designed wrong, doesn't fit into any useful niche.
4. Siege Turtle on the other hand is a small change or two away from being amazing. First of all, in wvw there are few pets that are even useful to begin with. In roaming, pets explode from damage. It's like you have to use primarily Bristleback in roaming because he is full ranged, just so he stays away from high DPS roamers and doesn't die, so you have at least 1 pet that can reliably survive. In zerging, pets get auto deleted from DPS. The only useful pet in zerging is the normal Wolf which you can set to retreat and use his F2 AoE Fear CC, which is far more impactful than anything else the other pets can do. The Siege Turtle however, actually has enormous vitality and decent chance of surviving wvw level DPS whether roaming or zerging. Since pets are somewhat uneventful in wvw, having a turtle following you on retreat that can bubble for you, is often more impactful than having Smokescales & Ibolgas that explode and die as soon as they take random splash damage. This isn't as much of a problem for Soulbeasts because they revive pets on merge, but it is a problem for the other specs. The turtle also has a big AoE CC that he uses if things get close. This is actually very useful as it hits multiple targets, has a rather large radius, and happens quickly so it has a high chance of landing, especially in say a 10 v 10 rolling into each other. And as far as Soulbeasts are concerned, the turtle merge skills are like 1 small change away from not only being viable, but being OP. The Jade Cannon merge skill is ALMOST amazing. If the velocity was increased, this would be the equivalent of an Engi chucking grenades, but it could also benefit Sic Em and OWP. This would make for very viable Soulbeast stance share builds for zerging. You could run Anti-Toxin, Bear Stance, Dolyak Stance, OWP, and the trait that does heal on beast skills in conjunction with the heal/cleanse that comes on turtle naturally. The turtle would be useful in terms of natural pet skills and while merge, and while you were a tanky dps/support hybrid, you could camp turtle merge and be chucking essentially grenades into enemy zerg. If the turtle's natural and merged Jade Cannon attacks were to receive simply a velocity increase, the turtle would be amazing and enable a lot of new build structures.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 4/16/2023 at 12:53 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Siege Turtle on the other hand is a small change or two away from being amazing.

Thanks for the blurb on the turtle pet - I gave up trying to make use of any EoD pets almost instantly after taming them, and if I'm remembering correctly, they were all bugged in terms of movement and even worse at landing hits of any kind. The slow projectile velocities are still going to be quite unfun to work with, but perhaps melee + non-attack stance + active management will help.

I guess I'll give turtle another go on a few different specs, see how it is.

Back on topic: that's exactly what I thought Anet was doing with the EoD pets, intentional sabotage so there wasn't another iboga/gazelle outcry.

[Eurantien.4632]

They're bugged/poor design

The Phoenix has the stats swapped which is why its so squishy, compare to other pets with similar stats and you'll see the vitality is swapped with another stat (I forget which).

As for the other pets. Wallow, Siege Turtle, and still Phoenix, these pets are all getting the wrong skills when merged with Soulbeast. On every other pet when you pull up the pet menu, you get access to their 2nd and 3rd skills (the 4th is F2 unmerged and the 1st is their "autoattack". What is happening is they're either bugged or someone was like lets be fun! and have siege turtle autos be in the merge soulbeast kit and it affected the other two new pets. Wallow should give you Maul, Siege Turtle should give you the AoE CC instead of the kitten autos. Phoenix should give you the rush skill.

White Tiger is fine (likely cause it was built from an existing feline model) HOWEVER the F2 design is garbage since it can't even hit anything that moves.

I have brought it up many times over the year since EoD came out and nothing has changed.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Eurantien.4632

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

20 hours ago, Eurantien.4632 said:

White Tiger is fine (likely cause it was built from an existing feline model) HOWEVER the F2 design is garbage since it can't even hit anything that moves.

The f2 has been fine for me. It's just an aegis application, really nice to gave for fights like Deimos.

[Strider.7849]

On 4/16/2023 at 10:53 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Phoenix is absolute garbage. Every single thing about this pet is not only bad, but completely dysfunctional.
2. Wallow is somehow a nerfed pig.
3. White Tiger is just designed wrong, doesn't fit into any useful niche.
4. Siege Turtle on the other hand is a small change or two away from being amazing. First of all, in wvw there are few pets that are even useful to begin with. In roaming, pets explode from damage. It's like you have to use primarily Bristleback in roaming because he is full ranged, just so he stays away from high DPS roamers and doesn't die, so you have at least 1 pet that can reliably survive. In zerging, pets get auto deleted from DPS. The only useful pet in zerging is the normal Wolf which you can set to retreat and use his F2 AoE Fear CC, which is far more impactful than anything else the other pets can do. The Siege Turtle however, actually has enormous vitality and decent chance of surviving wvw level DPS whether roaming or zerging. Since pets are somewhat uneventful in wvw, having a turtle following you on retreat that can bubble for you, is often more impactful than having Smokescales & Ibolgas that explode and die as soon as they take random splash damage. This isn't as much of a problem for Soulbeasts because they revive pets on merge, but it is a problem for the other specs. The turtle also has a big AoE CC that he uses if things get close. This is actually very useful as it hits multiple targets, has a rather large radius, and happens quickly so it has a high chance of landing, especially in say a 10 v 10 rolling into each other. And as far as Soulbeasts are concerned, the turtle merge skills are like 1 small change away from not only being viable, but being OP. The Jade Cannon merge skill is ALMOST amazing. If the velocity was increased, this would be the equivalent of an Engi chucking grenades, but it could also benefit Sic Em and OWP. This would make for very viable Soulbeast stance share builds for zerging. You could run Anti-Toxin, Bear Stance, Dolyak Stance, OWP, and the trait that does heal on beast skills in conjunction with the heal/cleanse that comes on turtle naturally. The turtle would be useful in terms of natural pet skills and while merge, and while you were a tanky dps/support hybrid, you could camp turtle merge and be chucking essentially grenades into enemy zerg. If the turtle's natural and merged Jade Cannon attacks were to receive simply a velocity increase, the turtle would be amazing and enable a lot of new build structures.

I've been using white tiger (for aegis) on druid when I feel like playing a different healer for raids and strikes. Worst thing about it is that sometimes the pet won't activate the aegis even if you spam press F2. I would like to see turtle shoot out 4 lobs of damage like the seige turtle mount if they keep the delay between attacks so long and the pets a.i. extremely bad.

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

The f2 has been fine for me. It's just an aegis application, really nice to gave for fights like Deimos.

I think Eurantien is talking about Phase Ponce (F2 when merged as slb), which is garbage all over.

1 hour ago, Strider.7849 said:

Worst thing about it is that sometimes the pet won't activate the aegis even if you spam press F2.

That's just the result of anet breaking ranger pets to accommodate mech ... Gotta press "Return to Me" before every command to cancel whatever the pet is doing, otherwise chances are high the pets simpy won't respond.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Zyreva.1078