Next Expansion, no Elite specs but?

[Astralporing.1957]

19 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

When the language is vague, it's best to keep expectations low.

This. The only more concrete things they have mentioned is about things that will likely not be included. Any potential positives were shrouded in so much nebulous and undefinite wording that anything we might think it means is purely a hype on our part, nothing more.

In short, when they say that there won't be elite specs in 4th expansions, and that they don't think there's point to making further elite specs, that's what it means - most likely no more elite specs in the future. When they say  that they want to "augment the combat options for each profession by adding new tools to their arsenal and by lifting constraints that will unlock an unprecedented number of playstyle customization options" however, it can mean anything and nothing. It may mean they will add new weapons to core classes, or de-attach espec weapons from especs. It can mean landspears. It can mean they will add missing elite well to necromancers. It can mean that they will let us use more of our skills underwater. It can also mean they will give us an option for mesmer skills to glow golden and shatter in bees. Or, it can just mean they will make sure all classes have access to quickness or alacrity and leave it at that. Or, even, it can mean none of the above.

[Moradorin.6217]

I mean if they cannot actually balance and fix the especs from PoF why make more specs??

 

For those who would say the pof specs are fine I would just say:

 

Mirage

[Obtena.7952]

My speculation on what Anet is saying here:

PVE 'roles' are going to be more significant in how specs 'expand' in these expansions. I can only guess that might happen through a new system that makes specific effects or characteristics associated with each role and specs will be placed in these role categories to get those effects/characteristics.

What I don't like is the implications this has for PVE content that I also suspect will results in PVE content moving from 'soft' to 'hard' requirements for teams to be made up from these roles. 

In otherwords ... GW2 could be moving to a fixed role-based system, just like the dozens of other traditional MMOs you can play on the market. The sad part is that not being a role-based MMO is the thing that sold lots of people on GW2.

Also, for anyone that thinks this will result in better balance ... don't hold your breath.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[VocalThought.9835]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it's fair to say that there's a massive gulf between wanting perfection, and some guy on a forum saying that you can get what you want if only you're happy to handicap yourself by using only 25% of your profession.

Even the "ice weaver" build I outlined... is not something that's actually a thing for a reason. The recent scepter rebalance into more of a selfish DPS weapon means that water attunement is no longer automatically a DPS drop simply for attuning into it, but it's still intended more as something that you swap into, fire off a few skills, and swap out again, generally within five seconds or so. You can get decent DPS weaver builds from ducking in and out of fire or air in the way I described, because those attunements do more damage in the first place, and you're leveraging frequent triggers of Sunspot and/or Electric Discharge (y'know, the same interaction that bugged out and got Weaver disabled a few weeks ago, just happening at a rate that's measured in seconds per proc rather than in hertz). Water, even in sceptre, doesn't do that. The baseline damage is lower, and the water procs are oriented towards healing rather than damage. At best you might be able to make some janky open world solo build through leveraging the self-sustain coming out of that healing, but... fire/earth celestial weaver seems to do well enough at that.

You say "people are wanting their characters from other games to exist in gw2, where gw2 has it's own lore, vibe, concept of what a class can do or not, and how they do it" - but what about when the other game is Guild Wars 1? Those concepts should still be possible in the game's lore, vibe, and so on because it's the same lore. The problem, where elementalist is concerned, is that while, yes, attunement-swapping rather than having to choose an element is a cool and innovative idea, it has come at the cost of sacrificing the specialists, which, yes, did include the possibility of making an ice specialist in GW1 (in addition to specialists of other elements). Nowadays... there's multiple ways to make a fire-themed character, but the closest to an earth theme probably comes out of revenant, ice is basically reaper (which is naturally mixed up with death stuff), while the main source of an electricity theme apart from fresh air elementalist is engineer (but engineer doing an electricity theme only goes so far). Which is ironic given that ArenaNet loves to make element-themed weapons (including most of the gen 3 legendary variants) but in many cases it's hard to see how you could actually build a character around them.

Sure, the extra combat features might serve to introduce ways to make that happen, but "you can already do that as long as you're willing to pretend your core profession mechanic, which your profession is balanced around using, doesn't exist" - type responses aren't going to contribute to that.

(And this, incidentally, is just referring to the cryomancy and more broadly elementalist example. It's just one facet of a much broader discussion.)

I hear you. Guild Wars 1 players left GW2 for many of the reasons you stated. The game mechanics have drastically changed where gw2 players can't do what they used to in gw2, but those very changes is what made the developers more satisfied with their product when it comes to balancing, creative freedom, and overall enjoyment.  If they come up with a way for you to get what you're looking for and still be able to stay on their target, I'd be happy, but I'm already satisfied. I believe the reason they didn't already create those playstyles is because they either, don't know how, don't think it's worth doing, or that's what they're working on.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My speculation on what Anet is saying here:

PVE 'roles' are going to be more significant in how specs 'expand' in these expansions. I can only guess that might happen through a new system that makes specific effects or characteristics associated with each role and specs will be placed in these role categories to get those effects/characteristics.

What I don't like is the implications this has for PVE content that I also suspect will results in PVE content moving from 'soft' to 'hard' requirements for teams to be made up from these roles. 

In otherwords ... GW2 could be moving to a fixed role-based system, just like the dozens of other traditional MMOs you can play on the market. The sad part is that not being a role-based MMO is the thing that sold lots of people on GW2.

Also, for anyone that thinks this will result in better balance ... don't hold your breath.

Considering they also said they are going to add dps option to Druid, i doubt what you suspect will happen. I'd rather think they might go into an exact opposite direction - giving everyone everything.

[Zoser.7245]

I guess that they will update some of the  tons of skills that don't work underwater to work there. Add an underwater Mech too... Update the gyros as they promised for the Scrapper. Maybe, only maybe add a weapon to one or two professions that lacks of core weapon diversity and that is all in the short range. Probably, that is all for the first two mini-expansions (2 years).

About the Mirage...  I hope that CMC will laughs out loud again if asked about the "one dodge man" by @Rubi Bayer.8493  😁  I prefer "that" above a rework that will ruin it. At least for PvE, whatever they'll do, will end in something worse. But i fear that they'll mess with the Mirage sooner or later and i'll hate the result in all game modes.

In the medium range,  3th-4th mini-expansions, with luck and if players are upset of don't have new "toys" to play, maybe they'll add a new set of skills  (heal/utility/elite)  for all professions to cover their weakness and make them more equal/balanced to each other in utility. So they can brag that they added new "tools".  😆

What they could also do in the long range (5th expansion if ever released?), but very unlikely, is to add a new profession with its own specializations. as no more specializations are expected for the current professions.  Something different of what we have today. And, also unlikely, add few new weapons to the game. With new themes and mechanics.  

Those are the things i can imagine they could do at some point. We will see.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Zoser.7245

[SRMorgan.6124]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I would also like to see core classes become the 4th elite spec and to have an uniquest effect.

This is what I'd love to see in future gameplay updates too, whether as part of expansion 4 or not! Give Elementalist an actual special mechanic, since all three specs can do the swap, buff core necro, revenant, etc., so that players who don't want to play the specializations can play the core classes and feel as powerful. If they want to focus on core professions, this should be on their rader!

[SRMorgan.6124]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In short, when they say that there won't be elite specs in 4th expansions, and that they don't think there's point to making further elite specs, that's what it means - most likely no more elite specs in the future. 

I think you're spot on overall, but I also think that this whole 'no more elite specs' thing will depend on community reception. If whatever it is they're doing doesn't land well, and player engagement and/or sales aren't as good as EoD, I'd wager we'd be back to elite specs for expansion 5. Generally, I'd prefer if they outright say whether they plan on having specs every 3-4 years, or will try with new professions... The overall vagueness is meant to build speculation, but it's mostly annoying so far.

[Doggie.3184]

On 5/1/2023 at 3:55 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

New utilites.

Kinda like when Tower of Nightmares unlocked new healing skills? ;o

[Dadnir.5038]

7 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Kinda like when Tower of Nightmares unlocked new healing skills? ;o

You mean antitoxin spray? I'm still wondering why exactly they removed it, their arguable excuse was that it was to allow them to implement the "training tab" system... Still I invested some time to gain this skill on all my toons...

[Lazarus.4105]

I hope they fill in the gaps for the elite spec runes that are missing, such as willbender etc. Also could be cool if some runes are made or others reworked to with with specific types of utilities such as physical, signets etc. 

 

My general opinion is that a lot of the base game could be tuned in a way that could be "Expansion" worthy... Updating utilities, racial spells, core traits, sigils, runes, food/utilities etc.

[Myror.7521]

As Long as they gain me more supportish Style on Warrior im Open for everything! xd

[Jski.6180]

14 hours ago, SRMorgan.6124 said:

This is what I'd love to see in future gameplay updates too, whether as part of expansion 4 or not! Give Elementalist an actual special mechanic, since all three specs can do the swap, buff core necro, revenant, etc., so that players who don't want to play the specializations can play the core classes and feel as powerful. If they want to focus on core professions, this should be on their rader!

For the core ele i am thinking it should just simply act as if its in all atument at all times (some effect would not work if they are when swap to or swap out mind you). You would still be an core ele you would just get more out of your atument trait lines.

I kind of want to see that for all core classes they get more out of there core trait lines then the elite spec.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Jski.6180

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

This. The only more concrete things they have mentioned is about things that will likely not be included. Any potential positives were shrouded in so much nebulous and undefinite wording that anything we might think it means is purely a hype on our part, nothing more.

In short, when they say that there won't be elite specs in 4th expansions, and that they don't think there's point to making further elite specs, that's what it means - most likely no more elite specs in the future. When they say  that they want to "augment the combat options for each profession by adding new tools to their arsenal and by lifting constraints that will unlock an unprecedented number of playstyle customization options" however, it can mean anything and nothing. It may mean they will add new weapons to core classes, or de-attach espec weapons from especs. It can mean landspears. It can mean they will add missing elite well to necromancers. It can mean that they will let us use more of our skills underwater. It can also mean they will give us an option for mesmer skills to glow golden and shatter in bees. Or, it can just mean they will make sure all classes have access to quickness or alacrity and leave it at that. Or, even, it can mean none of the above.

They didn't say that they think there's no point in more elite specialisations. They indicated that there are only so many roles and playstyles per profession to be covered by elite specialisations and they've already covered most of them.

Most.

Not all.

Anyone looking at elementalist or warrior could tell you how absurd that would be.

It does appear to be that ArenaNet is perceiving a limit to the available design space for elite specialisations, and therefore trying to release a new set with every expansion is not going to be compatible with increasing the rate at which expansions are released. Which would be an accurate assessment. And it's possible that the alternatives they have in mind will be so successful (from their perspective, anyway) that a new set of elite specialisations just won't be something they get around to. But people claiming that this means that ArenaNet is done with elite specialisations altogether needs to go back and read what was actually written. They're not doing elite specialisations next expansion. But the language they've used does leave the door open for at least one more set sometime in the future.

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering they also said they are going to add dps option to Druid, i doubt what you suspect will happen. I'd rather think they might go into an exact opposite direction - giving everyone everything.

yeah definitely also could happen. I think my main take away is that any scenario that expands specs with simple ideas about defining roles doesn't look good if you care about meaningful choices we have as players. 

To be fair, the scheme I'm describing would be in the scope of giving Druid the dps option. They would simply put druid in the 'DPS' category and it would take on the characteristics/features assigned to that category. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

37 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They didn't say that they think there's no point in more elite specialisations. They indicated that there are only so many roles and playstyles per profession to be covered by elite specialisations and they've already covered most of them.

Most.

Not all.

Anyone looking at elementalist or warrior could tell you how absurd that would be.

Of course it's absurd. Anyone making even a cursory look on elite specs we received so far would know that the idea of them expanding roles is not heavily supported by design. Sure, some do that, but so far most of them were just doing something the base profession (and/or earlier especs) could already do... just better. Or differently.

You've already brought up ele and warrior, but their especs are hardly alone in that. Druid may be offering a new role for Rangers, but Soulbeast and Untamed are just flat out upgrades to core, nothing else. Same with Thief and Daredevil/Deadeye. Similarily, Dragonhunter and Firebrand just build up on ideas of core Guardian (with one going the dps route, and other concentrating more on support). And so on, and so on.

It's not like Anet says there's no point in further especs. In reality, it's just them saying they do not want to make more especs. And it's not like i can't understand them - it's a lot of work, and each time they add a new espec batch, they complicate the work of balance team by a lot. Honestly, it would probably have been better for them to make new professions, but by now it's not very likely (as they'd have to design not only a new profession, but 3 especs to it a the same time). Although, it would probably still be easier (and less impacting on balance) than doing new espec set.

37 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They're not doing elite specialisations next expansion. But the language they've used does leave the door open for at least one more set sometime in the future.

They only very rarely straight out close the door on something. Most of the time stuff will be officially left "on the table", even if they personally know it will never be touched again.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

No new elite specs means no point in getting the xpac if you're a pvper or wvwer.
Plus if the xpac is the same quality as the living story (everything points in this direction) there's no point in getting it even if you're a pver.
Long story short, they'll change the no elite specs, no full xpacs as soon as the backlash hits.
 

[SRMorgan.6124]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

No new elite specs means no point in getting the xpac if you're a pvper or wvwer.
Plus if the xpac is the same quality as the living story (everything points in this direction) there's no point in getting it even if you're a pver.
Long story short, they'll change the no elite specs, no full xpacs as soon as the backlash hits.

I really hope they've the foresight to know that if they try to sell an expansion with nothing new professions/specializations wise - no new weapon, utilities, elites or anything - they'll have a massive backlash on their hands. It's one thing to say, 'No new living world so we can deliver expansions quicker', and a wholly different thing to try selling us a living world episode as a 'smaller expansion'. They tried that with Icebrood Saga, it didn't work. I love my tempest, don't get me wrong, but endlessly playing the same 5 builds on new maps will get boring... and I am a lot less picky than most players, so boring me is not easy.

Basically, keeping expectations to a minimum... and if they miss the mark on that, see how many sorcerers one can make in D4! 😅

[otto.5684]

It is hard to tell what the devs meant specifically. There is one word “theorycrafing,” if used intentionally, it means we should something that is customizable. What that is, it is anyone’s guess.

 

And it seems they will open elite weapons to core.

[Lily.1935]

53 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

It is hard to tell what the devs meant specifically. There is one word “theorycrafing,” if used intentionally, it means we should something that is customizable. What that is, it is anyone’s guess.

 

And it seems they will open elite weapons to core.

Opening elite spec weapons to core would result in more homogenization rather than more theory craft. I can tell you the setup for each of necromancer's elite specs if all weapons are available. And its extremely obvious that this would be best.

Scourge: Scepter+Torch & Pistol+Warhorn
Condi Harbinger: Scepter+Torch & Pistol+Dagger
Condi Reaper: The only one that might not use either, but its more likely it'll be Scepter+Dagger & Pistol+Torch for their condi build.
Power Harbinger: Greatsword & Axe+Focus Which, btw, is the exact same as what reaper is now.

Unlocking these weapons to core makes the elite specs less interesting, not more...

[Doctor Hide.6345]

13 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Opening elite spec weapons to core would result in more homogenization rather than more theory craft. I can tell you the setup for each of necromancer's elite specs if all weapons are available. And its extremely obvious that this would be best.

Scourge: Scepter+Torch & Pistol+Warhorn
Condi Harbinger: Scepter+Torch & Pistol+Dagger
Condi Reaper: The only one that might not use either, but its more likely it'll be Scepter+Dagger & Pistol+Torch for their condi build.
Power Harbinger: Greatsword & Axe+Focus Which, btw, is the exact same as what reaper is now.

Unlocking these weapons to core makes the elite specs less interesting, not more...

     Doesn't that more or less show then that the other necro weapons need to reworked/improved to be actually good if the pistol and torch override all the other weapons we have access too? If they did open, that may force A-net to actually rework the others to be in good meta levels.

Edit: I should say weapons in general from other professions as well because if the elite weapons make them meta that shows how bad of a state they are in for the game. IMO, that means they should be reworked to be meta level to allow more options and gameplay giving variety to combat.

Also, reworked weapons would be new because they would be adding new skills to them plus balance meaning they are technically new weapons. So, A-net wouldn't be lying when they said new stuff as well.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Lily.1935]

2 hours ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

     Doesn't that more or less show then that the other necro weapons need to reworked/improved to be actually good if the pistol and torch override all the other weapons we have access too? If they did open, that may force A-net to actually rework the others to be in good meta levels.

Edit: I should say weapons in general from other professions as well because if the elite weapons make them meta that shows how bad of a state they are in for the game. IMO, that means they should be reworked to be meta level to allow more options and gameplay giving variety to combat.

Also, reworked weapons would be new because they would be adding new skills to them plus balance meaning they are technically new weapons. So, A-net wouldn't be lying when they said new stuff as well.

I think some weapons are actually quite well balanced against each other. I use necromancer as the example because its what I know best. But going to the Scepter and Pistol example, they're pretty close to each other which is why you'd use both on any condi build. And they're really well suited for both scourge and harbinger especially.

For engineer, there's fewer options but a power mechanist, power holosmith would be happy to run hammer over their respective weapons or rifle. Rifle would still be used, but hammer is really great for those melee fights. Other classes I'm not as confident with. Revenant probably wouldn't change much from where it is now.

I Don't really think these are the design constraints they're talking about though. Would it be fun to play with it? sure. Would it keep theory crafters very busy? No. And I think Arena net know that, they're better at the math than I am and I've basically solved how the weapons would be used if they became core for necromancer and its not even a thing at the moment.

[Obtena.7952]

21 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Opening elite spec weapons to core would result in more homogenization rather than more theory craft. I can tell you the setup for each of necromancer's elite specs if all weapons are available. And its extremely obvious that this would be best.

Scourge: Scepter+Torch & Pistol+Warhorn
Condi Harbinger: Scepter+Torch & Pistol+Dagger
Condi Reaper: The only one that might not use either, but its more likely it'll be Scepter+Dagger & Pistol+Torch for their condi build.
Power Harbinger: Greatsword & Axe+Focus Which, btw, is the exact same as what reaper is now.

Unlocking these weapons to core makes the elite specs less interesting, not more...

That's assuming the weapon skills remain the same across the specs. It seems plausible that Anet could create different versions of the weapon, dependent on the spec it's being used on. The only problem I see there is that it's ALOT of work to make versions of the same weapon for each spec in the game. 

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's assuming the weapon skills remain the same across the specs. It seems plausible that Anet could create different versions of the weapon, dependent on the spec it's being used on. The only problem I see there is that it's ALOT of work to make versions of the same weapon for each spec in the game. 

Why use old weapons than? Why not just give them access to weapons they don't have access to? Seems like that'd be a better solution. It would help to increase play time in the game. Like if I got a sword on my necromancer or a Longbow on my engineer that would incentivize me to play more to get either the right skin, ascended version or legendary version. Which translates to more play time. If they just give us the same weapons but not unlocked for core with new abilities it doesn't get me to play to craft these new weapons. i'll play to test them out for sure, but that's few hours in game overall.

At least that's my perspective on that.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

57 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

Why use old weapons than? Why not just give them access to weapons they don't have access to? Seems like that'd be a better solution. It would help to increase play time in the game. Like if I got a sword on my necromancer or a Longbow on my engineer that would incentivize me to play more to get either the right skin, ascended version or legendary version. Which translates to more play time. If they just give us the same weapons but not unlocked for core with new abilities it doesn't get me to play to craft these new weapons. i'll play to test them out for sure, but that's few hours in game overall.

At least that's my perspective on that.

 

     I have the opposite feeling. It would actually get me to play the game more because I now have access to weapons I have wanted to use for a long time, but I couldn't use them because their damage was bad. It would make me more interested in playing the game. Again with my example from the necro forum, if they changed P/P Thief with new skills with their new direction under Deadeye for example to be meta instance level. It would make me spend more money and time on the game because the true gunslinger theme finally came to be. I don't think I am the only one either with caring more about weapon theme overall.

     Now, I am not saying don't add new weapons because that would be great, but I really do think they need to focus and fix the old stuff first before they even attempt at adding new weapons. Some of these have been in need for a rework for a long time now.