With the probable end of elite specs, is anyone else even more upset that Catalyst exists?

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

I was fine with having one elite spec for my main be so uninspired and bland, under the assumption that we'd get more.

But with it now probably being the last,  what we got is:

1. The third elite spec with significant focus on close range, and little long-ranged additions.
2. Overlap with Tempest on aura usage.
3. Essentially flavourless self-buffs for Utility Skills.
4. A profession mechanic that's just  a glorified boons-and-combo field, with a barely interactive energy mechanic slapped on.

 

If they were not preserving "design space" for future elite specs, there were a dozen better ideas they should have gone for to actually round out Elementalist.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Blazing Rathalos.1904

[soulknight.9620]

52 minutes ago, Blazing Rathalos.1904 said:

I was fine with having one elite spec for my main so uninspired and bland, under the assumption that we'd get more.

Yeap, but relax we have a lot of ranged focused elite specs. Oh wait...

[MarzAttakz.9608]

Yeah, Catalyst feels like what core should have been to some degree. Out of all 9 elite specs it's the one that I like the least. Being primarily a WvW player, hammer to me is utter shite.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Tbh Anet complained about the lack of Design Space and it showed for numerous especs in EoD. I dont think Anet ever created an Espec and held back on its functionality on purpose for later especs (which is kinda problematic in their own way aswell). Catalyst being relatively bland as espec is probably one of the better reasons to stop releasing new ones, why continue with a concept that isn't working?

 

Also Anet mentioned that they still want to add new combat options and tools. If this means new utility skills and new weapons for core i'm all for it. One of the biggest complaints of ele players have been the limited amount of weapon& utility skill options across all especs. In many ways this would probably result in more build variety then introducing a new traditionally designed espec. 

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

5 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Tbh Anet complained about the lack of Design Space and it showed for numerous especs in EoD. I dont think Anet ever created an Espec and held back on its functionality on purpose for later especs (which is kinda problematic in their own way aswell). Catalyst being relatively bland as espec is probably one of the better reasons to stop releasing new ones, why continue with a concept that isn't working?

I'm not sure to be honest, I consider many amateur-made elite spec concepts for ele I saw in the past years to be better than the concept Anet went with for Catalyst. Even just completely ditching any idea of a weapon with melee capabilities would have improved it in my eyes. Note I'm not even talking about implementation here, just the base components chosen were bad.

 

So in my opinion, it has less to do with a lack of design space and more with bad design decisions.

[crosknight.3041]

i been saying it's a mess since the first beta. like seriously they could have made catalyst focus more on improved combos with their own field and such. instead we got another spec that wanted to make auras it's focus with lazy stat bonuses.
the fields the jade sphere creates is nice but lacks so much utility, as well as the inability to reposition and the worthless energy mechanic only serves to make it annoying.
the utility skills are dreadfully boring.
hammer lacks impact and had 4 of it's skills stolen for what should have been part of the specialization mechanics (glares at hammer 3) with a somewhat annoying range difference (woulda prefered hammer being like rev spear, changes auto skill based on range, with rest of the skills being 600-900 range)

[draxynnic.3719]

I'd caution both sides from reading too much into the statement. All we know for sure is that next expansion won't have elite specs. Which is fair enough, since it's possible they might be planning to release as soon as around August/September from what they're saying. They're saying that they've covered most of what they want to cover with elite specs, which is probably a fair call, but they haven't claimed to have got everything, and they obviously haven't.

If they are going to claim that they've got everything that elementalist should have out of elite specs, I'm going to laugh sardonically at them. And to come back to the thread title - Catalyst has been growing on me (although I think it probably could do with a trait redesign, and hammer being a proper melee/ranged hybrid weapon), but they've massively dropped the ball if they think it'd be okay for Elementalist's only elite specs forevermore to be Tempest, Weaver, and the unacknowledged lovechild of Tempest and Weaver. 

[Lighter.5631]

you just described the entire warrior class lol

[Jski.6180]

It realty needed to be more combo base with its own field generation something tempest was not that great at.

I hope they lets the F1-5 skills become different in how they are used if they are not going to add in any more elite spec. I would also like to see core ele become its own elite spec.

[Downstate.4697]

As long as it produces quickness anet is okay with its design. As much as I hate catalyst, anet has more important changes to focus on

[Stallic.2397]

Hopefully the expansion means a new core weapon, which many Ele mains want to be a Longbow. 

 

Even though catalyst is boring, longbow Catalyst would spice it up quite nicely. 

 

As a pvp player, hammer is very lackluster as well

[Infusion.7149]

Well it could be worse.

Eles have access to a decent ranged option with the scepter changes, plus heal tempest exists even if it loses efficacy while providing alacrity. Not to mention it works underwater and in PVP/WVW.

It would be far worse if you play a class that has lackluster alacrity or quickness healing regardless of gear or build.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I'm not upset with Catalyst. I just happily play Tempest.

Everything that happened after is irrelevant to me. Weaver is too much a piano dance to me and catalyst: I just don't like hammers as weapon. I'm a fragile magic wielder. Not a hammer warrior.

Edited May 5, 2023 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Helgaley.3619]

Yes. It does not seem like they incorporated any of the ideas and wishes Ele fans had for the next elite specialization, so I don't think it's remotely close to what many seemed to be hoping for, but I think the worst part is just how clunky and thrown together at the last minute the Catalyst feels. I think it compounds on a lot of the problems Elementalist already had without adding anything new beyond the jade sphere, which itself is lazy and poorly designed - it's just a stationary field with a 15 second cooldown and an energy requirement. It also manages to be overly complex and difficult to play for most players, but when it's played well, it's so potent that the developers have had trouble balancing it.

 

It's definitely my least favorite of not just the ele specializations, but all of the EoD specs. The hammer is also a mess, and I don't know what they were thinking with the 600 yard range for fire/air, engagement ability in water that is your heal, and CC ability that also CCs the player.

 

I have a conspiracy theory that Catalyst was originally intended to receive what Necro ended up getting with Harbinger, but rather than a pistol, it would have gotten a rifle since ele was up to receive a 2h weapon. I think Catalyst having a rifle with utility abilities like "bottled lightning" would have made way more sense than a hammer and the augments, especially since catalysts are related to chemical reactions & could easily be tied into throwing "bottled elements" and infusing them with ammo for the rifle. But then someone had the idea to say "hey wouldn't it be neat if we switched the catalyst and harbinger." Lol.

That's just my tinfoil hat theory, though 😛

[Doggie.3184]

I still think Hammer is literally the worst possible choice of all weapons for what's supposed to be the Wizard/Mage class and a total waste of an Elite Spec weapon because they could have just buffed Sword to be a mix of Range and Melee instead and ditched the unfun spinning orbs Hammer 3 mechanic all together. There's just 0 reason for the Hammer's poor attempt at a Red Mage style when Weaver already exists. It's a shame they can't undo the weapon.

[Dadnir.5038]

Nope, can't be more upset about catalyst than I already was since they showcased it.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

This awkward moment when you didn't have any expectations about elite specialization and A-net still managed to disappoint you beyond belief with Catalyst.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Helgaley.3619 said:

Yes. It does not seem like they incorporated any of the ideas and wishes Ele fans had for the next elite specialization, so I don't think it's remotely close to what many seemed to be hoping for, but I think the worst part is just how clunky and thrown together at the last minute the Catalyst feels. I think it compounds on a lot of the problems Elementalist already had without adding anything new beyond the jade sphere, which itself is lazy and poorly designed - it's just a stationary field with a 15 second cooldown and an energy requirement. It also manages to be overly complex and difficult to play for most players, but when it's played well, it's so potent that the developers have had trouble balancing it.

Yeah, having a third melee-oriented elite spec was really dropping the ball. People didn't perceive tempest as 'true melee' and asked for sword and got it. That really should have meant it was time for something a bit more like Virtuoso, Scourge, or Harbinger to follow up.

...jeez, I just realised that catalyst isn't just stealing weaver and tempest stuff, it's also kinda stealing scourge stuff...

There WERE people who were asking for a weapon that was melee on some attunements and ranged on others. But what we got was...

18 hours ago, Helgaley.3619 said:

 

It's definitely my least favorite of not just the ele specializations, but all of the EoD specs. The hammer is also a mess, and I don't know what they were thinking with the 600 yard range for fire/air, engagement ability in water that is your heal, and CC ability that also CCs the player.

It's even worse, because the projectile speed in air and fire is slooooooooow. Feels slower than the guardian scepter orb everyone used to complain about. If you're chasing someone or something, the effective range is only something like 200 or 300 because they're barely moving faster than you are. At least the guardian orbs back in the day continued far enough that they had some opportunity to get away from you.

18 hours ago, Helgaley.3619 said:

 

I have a conspiracy theory that Catalyst was originally intended to receive what Necro ended up getting with Harbinger, but rather than a pistol, it would have gotten a rifle since ele was up to receive a 2h weapon. I think Catalyst having a rifle with utility abilities like "bottled lightning" would have made way more sense than a hammer and the augments, especially since catalysts are related to chemical reactions & could easily be tied into throwing "bottled elements" and infusing them with ammo for the rifle. But then someone had the idea to say "hey wouldn't it be neat if we switched the catalyst and harbinger." Lol.

I suspect Harbinger is at least somewhat driven by ArenaNet wanting to have an elite specialisation that was Ankka's starting point before going off the deep end entirely. But whatever happened, Catalyst does feel a bit like it was thrown together at the last minute (apart from the orb animations).

[draxynnic.3719]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:11 AM, Lighter.5631 said:

you just described the entire warrior class lol

Both are in similar 'if it was going to be the last elite specialisation ever, it shouldn't have been that' situations.

However, there is a difference in that warrior's elite specialisations still match warrior's core identity as a melee bruiser. Too much, if anything. Warrior lacks versatility because it essentially has three melee dps specs competing for the same role.

Elementalist has the opposite problem. Its specs can fill different roles, but the elite specialisations have changed it from a fragile ranged nuker where even the melee-oriented weapon still involved a degree of dancing just out of a sword's reach, into something which is nearly as melee-oriented as a soldier profession. Because that's what all the elite specialisations are designed to do, and elementalist is not a profession where core can compete. It's at a point where I'm actually in the process of replacing my sylvari elementalist with a norn because I made the former based on 2012 elementalist, but if elementalist is doomed to be primarily melee, my character might as well look the part.

[Batalix.2873]

I'm disappointed in Catalyst for slightly different but not wholly unrelated reasons.

 

The idea is kitten there. A geomancer/shaman that plops down AoE buff totems and slings orbs with a mallet. Hammer was not a bad weapon to give Ele given that archetype. I don't even mind the jade energy charging to give it a bit more "channeling" flavor.

 

But why is the hammer still so melee? Why aren't we slinging more orbs of elemental goodness? Why are the totems a crummy version of Tempest Overloads? Why is the only orb gimmick a one-trick pony that is an objectively jankier version of Weaver's elite?

 

We did not need another big blasty mage. We had Tempest. We did not need another spastic swappy DPS mage. We had Weaver. Both did very well with what they do, and Cata trying to reuse them was frankly embarrassing.

 

What we needed was:

 

1) A hammer with range, or at minimum a weapon with a LOT of projectiles and pewpews. I think like Reaper GS (or anything on Rev) a mage class doesn't necessary need to abandon some melee smashies, but what sets a Scholar from a Soldier apart is that the Scholar would extend the effect into some sort of mid- to long-range effects..

 

2) A class that could actually place totems for longer than 5 seconds that actually felt like they affected the field. Why do Scourge shades last forever in comparison?

 

3) Given that Tempest was very "air magic" and Weaver very "Ice and Fire", personally I feel like a "geomancer" spec hauling around a chunk of jade wanted to lean "earth magic". I.e. finding some tank design space like they did with Scrapper or Spellbreaker would have been appreciated. Doubly so on Ele given that it is so squishy and could really use a more survivable espec.

 

4) In the line with all of the above, a class that wants to control area, maybe tank a little, and provide consistent boons/condis to be able to be that "rock"... Why tf is Cata still so obsessed with attunement swapping? Why does it have an "augment" skill line when it doesn't stay in any element long enough to augment anything? Everything about Cata's core concept screams that it wants to camp an element, maybe two, and put out consistent boons/condis that it can then augment. What we got is a class that is constantly on the brink of being split in four different directions.

 

I really, really hope that taking a break from especs will lead to refining the especs we have. Catalyst is hands down one of the worst, most janky, half-baked concepts in the game. And it's painful to look at because the design is right there, underneath all the flash-bang kittenery. I just don't know why the devs took a very solid, coherent design and diluted it into generic, spastic, melee, DPS blah.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[draxynnic.3719]

I tend to roll my eyes at claims that the elite specialisations are themed around specific elements, especially when this is backed up by saying that Tempest is air (look past the promo artwork of a Tempest using Air Overload and look at what the traits actually do - if it's anything, it's water). It is possible to make a tanky earth-themed catalyst if you're so inclined, it's just that most people don't. Yes, you'll need to swap attunements for efficient gameplay even without the silly orb mechanic, but that's elementalist in general.

 

The thing that ticks me off outside of the general "feels like they raided what was left on the cutting room floor after Tempest and Weaver" thing is that how many trait slots that could have had something interesting are instead stuffed with "build up a stacking buff" mechanics. There are a few of these on other professions, but with Catalyst, more than half of the traits are built around such mechanics, with the potential to have three separate stacking buffs just off Catalyst (Hardened Auras, Empowering Auras, and Elemental Empowerment, although the first of those is rarely if ever used) and a GM that does nothing unless you focus on getting one of those maxed out. That's a lot of trait space that could have been used to create some more interesting interactions.

[Dadnir.5038]

22 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

This awkward moment when you didn't have any expectations about elite specialization and A-net still managed to disappoint you beyond belief with Catalyst.

True, who would have expected them to fall so low that catalyst would end up as a poor crossbreed of the 2 previous specs.

I don't really care about the overall performances, the devs already proved that they can just inflate numbers as much as they think is needed to transform lead into gold. No, what really was upseting was the clear lack of originality of the concept.

[draxynnic.3719]

The ironic thing is that, despite being assembled out of pieces of the previous elite specialisations, Catalyst does play differently. Feels like an elementalist/dervish cross, while weaver feels more like an elementalist/assassin cross. 

However, I'm pretty sure that nobody was asking for another melee elite before Catalyst was announced (and hammer doesn't work as a hybrid weapon for reasons already discussed). It's acceptable as elite specialisation 3 of 4, but if they had any thought whatsoever that EoD even might be the last set of elite specialisations, there's no way that Catalyst should have been what they made. I do kinda like it, despite its many flaws, but it could have been the best-designed elite specialisation in the game (it's not) and that doesn't change the fact that all three elite specialisations for the "favours ranged" elementalist are melee-oriented.

[Jski.6180]

Anet realty needs to make trident usable on land (over all make all underwater weapons usable on land.)

If this is all we are getting for elite spec scepter needs to be THE ranged dps weapon for the ele class. Staff needs to be THE ranged utility / support weapon for the ele class. Every thing else is melee aimed so it would have to be worked out with that in mind.

So every time they nerf scepter in any game type it is anet saying ele is doing too much ranged dps and not enofe melee dps.

[Jzaku.9765]

My biggest issue with Catalyst is that the flavour is close to nonexistent. It is difficult to describe Catalyst without explicitly referring to it's mechanics. It's extremely obvious to me that it was designed mechanics-first for PvP as a callback to the gameplay style of celestial D/D Ele from WAY back in the core game.

They even ruined the summoner theme it vaguely has by making it tech-based. Then murdered that theme even more by making the mechanic effectively spammable with short duration.