Specialization: Should Druid be a DPS?

[Flapjackson.1596]

DPS Druid is an entertaining idea, particularly for the implications in content like Soulless Horror. Ranger is not lacking in DPS options however. Yes, the existing DPS options for Ranger are not Druid. It is not exactly fitting the fantasy of players who want to be a DPS and a Druid. Anet cannot and should not attempt to cater to every single person's requested fantasy. Player desire will always outpace what is feasible or practical for a developer to do. The two questions at hand are: Does Druid need another DPS option, and will making a functioning DPS Druid compromise the design of the spec?

 

In regards to the first question:

Ranger already has Soulbeast as a a very solid option for Power DPS and a respectable Condi DPS option. Untamed has been shelved by Anet until they fix it in June, but its design is clearly another DPS option. In terms of raw dps options, 2/3 of Ranger specs offer 4 DPS options (5 if you count Hybrid Soulbeast). That is pretty good. If we look at dps boon supports, Untamed offers Alacrity DPS. This may change with the June 27th update adjusting how Ranger applies Alacrity. Druid will certainly retain Alacrity to keep it competitive with other healers. What is unclear is if Untamed will retain it. If it doesn't, then adding DPS Druid will push out Untamed as a boon option for the profession. If Untamed keeps Alacrity, it has a simpler build competing for the same job. Either way it loses it's niche. This isn't a common thing for builds. Most Quick/Alac providers are that professions only access to the boon. Warrior will likely be changed too so it's not worth mentioning. Chrono and Mirage both provide Alac but Chrono offers Power DPS and Mirage offers better Condi DPS. I don't see a necessity for DPS Druid because Ranger does not lack DPS options, and adding it pushes Untamed out of it's intended design space. 

 

In regards to the second question:

Druid has a kit laser-focused on healing. It was the first premier healer of the game. Everything in it's kit blends together to offer you with a strong healing experience. HoT specs in general were (mostly) much more focused on providing a focused, a specialized, gameplay experience. Anet mentioned that they want to give Druid and Tempest improved DPS options. Tempest is a complicated case because Ele inherently offers flexibility in it's design. Druid does not. Which begs the question, will attempting to shoehorn more DPS into Druid's kit compromise it's healing? We have seen this problem with Firebrand. Firebrand is a spec that is overloaded in value. The DPS version had free access to two support tomes. This was insane utility. They had to adjust Firebrand design to account for having access to so much simultaneously. If DPS Druid exists, what happens to Celestial Avatar? Does it now also deal damage? Do you just ignore it and you have a DPS build with insane support utility? Anet will have to change the foundation of Druid's design to make it work as a DPS. I am not confident that they will make a satisfactory solution. I like it when elite specializations are specialized. Attempting to make every spec do everything well goes against their very concept. Should we next advocate for Berserker and DragonHunter healers?

 

June will bring a lot of changes to the game. Hopefully they are good changes. In trying to address Druid as a DPS option, Anet is tackling a problem that does not exist. I would appreciate it if their efforts were targeted at more relevant and pressing matters. Things not addressed in the blog post. Things like the outdated core kits of some professions like Ele and Warrior. Warrior's mess of traitlines. EoD specs with uninspired traitlines like Harbinger. Address the issues we have. Don't create more simply to address them.

[Dadnir.5038]

Druid is control, support and healing. I'd say that with those 3 roles druid, even if not prefect, is already "whole".

It might be interesting if the devs where to "build" more onto the different gameplay that the druid offer. As it stand there is no GM that's really interesting for shroud dancing and the control aspect feel a bit lacking. The minor also focus a bit to much on self sustain which, ideally, isn't something that you'd want to see on a spec with a lot of focus on providing support.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Infusion.7149]

It is fine if druid has a semi decent DPS option, it would probably be no different than say a cele firebrand/tempest/renegade. Of course having a spec designed for support does not mean you should not ever be able to do damage (see specter with ritualist gear or carrion gear , scourge before the barrier nerfs). You would trade some damage for better healing without resorting to a full on heal build.

In the past the DPS druid variants were stated to be 13K DPS or something which is far too low. Really it should be around 20-30K or so in line with alacrity or quickness supports since it always has celestial avatar no matter how you make your build.

Due to the player pressures I think a (PvE) DPS druid would probably still be an alacrity and/or boon source due to the way gearing works. For example if glyphs applied bleeding when traited with Verdant Etching , Grace of the Land applied bleeding on Natural Convergence in PvE, or Ancient Seeds having additional bleeding stacks in PvE that would be the sort of thing we would be seeing. Else, we could possibly see more of the Celestial Avatar skills do things other than healing when you do not use Lingering Light or higher damage coefficients overall on the druid staff and glyphs.

Think of the following sorts of possibilities:

• Glyph of Equality (non-celestial) damage coefficient increased from 1.5 to 2.0 or something with bleeding stacks added
• Glyph of Tides (non-celestial) now has bleeding stacks
• Primal Echoes now increases staff damage coefficients or adds bleeding or whatnot
• Live Vicariously has some sort of conditional damage bonus or other such damage mod that is thematic (i.e. +5% bleeding damage vs crippled/immobed targets)

In addition to this, there have been existing builds using druid as a DPS even if not in instanced content:
https://guildjen.com/druid-open-world-build/

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Druid_-_Alacrity_Support_Condi_DPS

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[The Boz.2038]

*EVERY* e-spec should be capable of dishing out deeps.

[aymnad.9023]

Thank you for making this thread. I waited a bit to see if anyone would create it. I share all your concerns.

I just want to point out that druid was not the first healer since other professions could do it on core (and tempest for hot too). This already shows something important, something that makes druid in need of so many healing (and support) features is that… well core ranger lacks them.

I am not one of the people asking for druid to have a dps build. My main wish always is / has been to have a support version of ranger that works in every game mode. It took a while but I think it works in every game mode. I would even say the support aspect in need of improvement comes from core (spirits and nature magic or Guard!). Right now it can range from great to viable (I played druid PvP season not long ago, mostly on support).

The scary:

Talking about PvP, I think a lot of people underestimate druid. It can already be reaaaaalllllyy strong to the point where it could become a monster with damage trait added. (History time: people were insulting me after the release of PoF for playing ranger. They said I was getting carried by playing condi druid [which was seen as meta] when I was playing.... power soulbeast [and my teammates were reporting me for not playing a "real build"]).

Potential other changes:

This means I am expecting some sustain nerf  / reworks which could  mean some healing or boon build update for every game mode? We know they are not fond of a profession having alacrity and quickness and I am expecting a quickness build on ranger at some point.

Previous suggestions (support based): 

In the past I suggested to make druid the first support to focus on resistance. This would have made it unique and revitalized some traits (like invigorating bond) while being on theme with all the effects against movement impairing condition ranger has. I almost gave up on this idea since Firebrand was the one getting it (I am not forgetting that anytime soon) so maybe some barrier or unique effects (like for glyph of unity in normal form).

Edited May 8, 2023 by aymnad.9023
lot of formatting

[SRMorgan.6124]

I for one would welcome a more dps oriented Druid build, since it is my favouirte of the Ranger specializations, but both it's dps/cdps versions are presently inferior to Soulbeast. Only issue is, very soon all the specializations will be able to cover all the roles, which will then bag the question - what is the point of specializing at all? 

[draxynnic.3719]

My response to the OP's question is:

How often do you see druids in open world, especially running around solo rather than joining meta-events or bounties?

This might sound like a trivial question, but it expresses a real problem for people getting into druid. Open world is probably where most people learn and practice the general functioning of an elite specialisation they're not familiar with. However, it's a bit painful when it starts to take a significant amount of time just to kill veterans or even regular mobs. Most elite specialisations have builds that can do fairly decent damage for solo open world, but druid is hyperspecialised towards support such that it's just not all that fun to play in open world - which discourages players from learning it well enough to play it anywhere else.

Which is not to say that druid needs to be able to hit a 40k benchmark. It'd probably be fine if druid just had a decent boondps build, since adequate boondps builds tend to do well in solo play as well.

[Stx.4857]

Druid isn’t going to be a pure dps spec, but in pretty much every game I can think of that has a Druid class, it is a hybrid class with healing and damage options.  
 

Currently the Druid in this game is as close as you can get to a pure healer.  So they are most likely just going to add a few damage trait options in the spec, which is fine because the Druid trait options are pretty bland anyway.  

[Infusion.7149]

draxynnic makes a good point that I was hinting at earlier which is that druid will and should not be a top DPS but if someone is devoting all their other traitlines and gear to DPS it should be able to do at least mediocre DPS on par with boon supports (25K+) and roughly 20K if healing minor stat gear is used (seraph/plaguedoctor).

If someone is completely clueless and decides to run power gear on druid (GS+longbow druid is a common sight when this happens) , Celestial Avatar only heals for ~230 on auto , ~2K from Rejuvenating Tides , ~1.6K from Lunar Impact.

I have played a variety of support builds in openworld or solo such as cele/seraph firebrand, diviner/cele/ritualist renegade (diviner was before the Soulcleave change), StM chrono before firebrand was a thing (pre diviner gear), ritualist specter, plaguedoctor scourge, cele (alac) tempest, quickness scrapper, alac mechanist with a mace, warrior variants with tactics, etc. What is a key difference between firebrand and other specs is the compounding effectiveness against large groups of enemies (Virtue of Justice triggers).

Of course, for druid in particular the best way for Arenanet to spin it into a DPS is condition hybrid builds (seraph, plaguedoctor) due to the way gearing works. To avoid breaking it in competitive modes the major condi DPS improvements could be reserved for PvE. Condi alac untamed is unlikely to be a thing after the fervent force changes , especially since hammer is a power damage aligned weapon and the reliance on projectile path of scars (offhand axe) means it is unwieldy when not near the target.

Arenanet has stated that recharge traits are slowly being removed and Primal Echoes is a prime example of a trait that would be nearly useless if the recharge is removed. Also with the advent of ally target on Solar Beam (staff auto) there really is no reason that Arenanet cannot double the damage (by adding bleeding or just increasing damage) when you do not heal people (the heal is mediocre anyway when you compare to say guardian mace or revenant staff auto). If you need the full heal strength you could always just ally target.

However, staff is a player choice while Celestial Avatar is a forced choice so being able to do any sustained damage at all in Celestial Avatar (even if PvE only) while traited with Ancient Seeds (beyond the daze triggering Ancient Seeds) would be a positive change. In keeping with theme it could be similar to Rot Wallow venom on specter, but that would add a bit of additional UI and code bloat (if Seed of Life does not cleanse a condition it could buff one ally to apply poison on next attack for example). Another alternative is Ancient Seeds swaps Seed of Life for another skill that removes the mediocre heal (about on par with the Cosmic Ray CA auto) and blindness (which is terrible against defiant enemies) in exchange for a bleeding or poison application.

I blueprinted something using  Seraph gear (35% BD, 1500+ Condi damage, 98% bleeding) and I was not really impressed by the outcome compared to viper (~1560 Condi damage, 100% bleeding but with about double the power), I really think you need alacrity (spirits) at a minimum to warrant druid. Most likely you would run ~50% BD via Nature Magic with ~1.5K condi damage and 93% bleeding, forgo Refined Toxins poison output and the poison damage of Poison Master, and run sun spirit (which has burning to offset the damage loss of alacrity output) with Storm spirit to trigger ancient seeds. Essentially you trade Exploding Spores for Glyph of Alignment if Glyphs get added bleeding. Otherwise you would probably still use Sharpening Stone for any prolonged fight over Glyph of Alignment.

Lastly, if Ancient Seeds provided bleeding on immob (in PvE) it would make Stone Spirit a much stronger option for DPS druid as well as Vine Surge on druid staff and Muddy Terrain if people decide to run that. I do not think Signet of Wild is likely to be used since power druid really is not supported by the traits: Grace of the Land would need a (personal) damage bonus for that to remotely happen.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Flapjackson.1596]

6 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

 

Thank you for making this thread. I waited a bit to see if anyone would create it. I share all your concerns.

I just want to point out that druid was not the first healer since other professions could do it on core (and tempest for hot too). This already shows something important, something that makes druid in need of so many healing (and support) features is that… well core ranger lacks them

 

Yeah I definitely don’t want to discount core healing, just it was a big shift when Druid came along as a focused, dedicated healer.

 

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

How often do you see druids in open world, especially running around solo rather than joining meta-events or bounties?

Not often. I am totally fine with Druid getting a little bit more love to improve its OW performance. The one issue with this would be if players approach Druid first as a DPS and then learn they are shifted towards a healer role for instanced content. 
 

When it comes to PvE balance, the issue at hand really is about instanced content. As many have mentioned, Anet’s balance focus is around 10-man content and the 40k benchmark that so many builds seem to hover around now. When Anet says they want to enable Druid dps, I am not worried about OW. I am worried about buffs around a 20k increase, and the potential changes the Devs may do to the kit in order to achieve that.

[Batalix.2873]

I'm in the "specializations should specialize" camp too.

 

While I think Tempest is in an odd place because I feel like Catalyst wanted to be the boon/healer by design and Tempest seems flavorfully kind of violent enough to merit some DPS, I don't feel that way about Druid.

 

Condi druid kills open world content at a respectable 10k-15k-ish DPS with the help of core shortbow. Yes you don't kill things lightning fast, but that's *fine*. Some people care more about survivability. Some people enjoy actually interacting with mobs instead of mowing them down. Not every class needs to be shoehorned into "hi DPS" at the cost of distinct playstyles and game feel.

 

I think the decision to try to add DPS features to Druid (and Tempest, and Herald) are the wrong direction to take the game. I think every profession has an espec that could be refined into more of a dedicated healer/support. Firebrand, Scourge, and Specter are already flavored as and typically used as healers so imo they should be moved even further into those niches instead of competing with the other two clearly DPS especs. Throw in Chrono and Mechanist for good measure and you have an actually robust and balanced healer meta instead of 27 especs all trying to be condi-boon-heal Firebrand.

 

I play this game for the job fantasies. And presently the only job fantasies I enjoy are the ones that willfully diverge from the "DPS support" blob. If that is not by design like Druid and Herald, I force them to anyway like my barrierScourge, and a Cataboontank. That's not to say the DPS fantasies are all bad, just that a lot of them kind of converge on the same "sword the thing" or "burn the thing", rotation-heavy design.

 

Furthermore, part of FFXIV's casual appeal and dominance is the existence of non-DPS archetypes/roles. Despite many flaws with their design, healer and tank roles offer variety, they tend to be more accessible and less stressful than DPS roles, and many people like the difference in job fantasy. I truly think it was a mistake for GW2 to diverge from this mentality completely with respect to espec design, because they ended up compressing a fairly complex systems into a unidimensional DPS axis, and alienated a good number of casual players in the process. Yes, we have a *few* healers, even if you count overgeneralized specs like HAM, quickbrand, etc., but I think the proliferation of HAM and prior to that quickbeand speaks to how underprioritized and underdeveloped healing is in this game. If the game were designed more around deliberately maintaining healerspace, you wouldn't see one or two builds dominating those roles.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Infusion.7149]

@Batalix

If a druid is getting 13K DPS benchmark it surely is not getting that in actual openworld. Why? You do not have quickness , might is reliant on Grace of the Land (you would take Ancient Seeds), and generally flanking is not possible unless it is a boss that other people are hitting.

There is nothing wrong with a druid in full on DPS gearing getting 25 or even 30K DPS as a benchmark number in the long-term. The survivability of a druid without healing power and minimal access to celestial avatar (due to  CA not allowing for many DPS skills) is going to be less than untamed with restorative strikes and plentiful CC or a merged soulbeast with predators cunning and poison applications.

Your idea of scourge being a heal spec falls flat on its face so long as there is no alacrity application. There also is minimal might and fury output let alone other key boons such as protection and vigor. It also does not have a massive amount of healing: it is mostly barrier and ressing.

Herald is not even a heal spec, it has never been used as such in WvW and in PvE you are more likely to see a renegade with soulcleave as a healer than just ventari herald.

Catalyst is not designed as a heal spec, it is designed as a boon DPS, hence hammer does not even heal other players.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

Obligatory 'this isn't FF14, this is GW2' comment. What works for some games doesn't work for others, and some people choose their game specifically because it does something different to some other game. ArenaNet have said that the majority of players are pretty much purely or nearly purely playing open world and story. If you push an elite specialisation into a hyper-specialised role that isn't useful in open world, you are essentially deleting the specialisation for those players.

 

9 hours ago, Flapjackson.1596 said:

 

Not often. I am totally fine with Druid getting a little bit more love to improve its OW performance. The one issue with this would be if players approach Druid first as a DPS and then learn they are shifted towards a healer role for instanced content. 

I think it's a heck of a lot easier to make the transition from a position of knowing broadly what the skills do as a DPS rather than going in completely blind.

For instance, I recently started picking up heal revenant, which means Ventari. Thing is, though, I'd had experience using Ventari on DPS builds for the projectile destruction. As a result, while obviously you don't use it in quite the same way when healing, I was going in with some understanding of how to use the tablet.

In the case of druid - as Infusion pointed out, CA is mostly something you just don't use at all unless you're built for healing (you might dip in for skill 5 on occasion). So when someone starts to learn healdruid for endgame stuff or WvW, they basically have to start from scratch. Maybe they've practiced their heal rotation against a damage field from a golem, but there's no substitute for combat experience.

Which does mean that I suspect part of the picture might well be making CA something you could use on a damage build if it's something you choose to build for. Possibly through traits that compete with the super-healer traits.

[Ashen.2907]

I am all for the idea that each class should be able to fill a variety of roles based on which specializations are chosen. I am not fond of the idea that each elite spec within a given class should push that envelope further extremes. The concept that class X can fulfill roles A, B, and C works for me. Having an elite spec expand the options to include D as well is also good design IMO.

Druid is not a class, it is a specialization within a class that already provides the role being discussed. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[PolarBear.3961]

Yes the druid should be able to have a variant that changes celestial avatar into a dps shroud and transforms the staff from healing to dmg. Its the only spec in the game that can only heal...

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Every class should be able to provide a versatile suite of builds for the various game modes and content in the game. Since some measure of DPS and sustain are crucial for solo builds, these mechanics tend to have the most impact for the majority of players. It's rather frustrating to play the druid class in OW now, unless running with a group. DPS is also the most popular group role, so that should be an option for every class too. So yes, every class including druid, should be able to provide viable DPS, and from there classes can specialize into other role as fits their theme and playstyle.

[Jski.6180]

The game is still base off the ideal that all classes should be player-able the way you want them so yes druid should do dps to an point. That point is up to how well it can self support and stay safe at an range. Druid can be an real monster in wvw to kill in roaming if it also dose good dps.

Added point on dps there also tempest talking about doing dps this class has a bit less safe range to it due to how melee ish the overloads are but it also has a lot of self support though healing and boons. Its already an strong ish roaming class (not as strong as catalyest and weaver atm).

[apharma.3741]

3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The game is still base off the ideal that all classes should be player-able the way you want them so yes druid should do dps to an point. That point is up to how well it can self support and stay safe at an range. Druid can be an real monster in wvw to kill in roaming if it also dose good dps.

Added point on dps there also tempest talking about doing dps this class has a bit less safe range to it due to how melee ish the overloads are but it also has a lot of self support though healing and boons. Its already an strong ish roaming class (not as strong as catalyest and weaver atm).

With elite specs they really should have specialised each spec in a specific way and the game is worse off for not doing this. You shouldn't be a good dps as druid, tempest, chrono, spectre, scourge, firebrand, spellbreaker or scrapper. You should be good at support and a few other things like control, debuffing or potentially able to be durable so that you don't really lose a 1v1 easily.

Where each of these lands on the support to 1v1 and a bit more damage spectrum is up to the devs but not forcing square pegs through round holes is generally a concept most kids grasp early.

[Jski.6180]

7 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

With elite specs they really should have specialised each spec in a specific way and the game is worse off for not doing this. You shouldn't be a good dps as druid, tempest, chrono, spectre, scourge, firebrand, spellbreaker or scrapper. You should be good at support and a few other things like control, debuffing or potentially able to be durable so that you don't really lose a 1v1 easily.

Where each of these lands on the support to 1v1 and a bit more damage spectrum is up to the devs but not forcing square pegs through round holes is generally a concept most kids grasp early.

I guess i am not sure where tanks fall into that view (scrapper seems more like an tank class then an true support). I also dont see the rev support class in your list.

If druid gets more dmg with its staff i think that is not good for balancing but its "aggsive version" gliphs for sure has room to do dmg.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

With elite specs they really should have specialised each spec in a specific way and the game is worse off for not doing this. You shouldn't be a good dps as druid, tempest, chrono, spectre, scourge, firebrand, spellbreaker or scrapper. You should be good at support and a few other things like control, debuffing or potentially able to be durable so that you don't really lose a 1v1 easily.

Where each of these lands on the support to 1v1 and a bit more damage spectrum is up to the devs but not forcing square pegs through round holes is generally a concept most kids grasp early.

The majority of players play open world almost exclusively. This would pretty much delete all these specialisations for them.

Whether you're a good healer or dps depends on your gear, not the icon over your head. There is nothing wrong with a so-called support specialisation also offering a decent boondps build as well.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I fall into the camp of each specialization should have a function.  

For Ranger that would be:

Druid = Heal + Control / Condi DPS (bleed)

Soulbeast = Boon DPS / Pure DPS (Condi or Power)

Untamed = Control / Power DPS (at current time due to how hammer functions)

So, we already have all bases covered here.  Shoehorning power modifiers onto Druid traits / skills is just a bad idea all around, as the spec was literally designed around healing and condition control.  In addition, anytime they try to make a hybrid weapon it turns out sub-par or awful in one game mode or another, so I'd rather staff just stay a healing / kiting weapon instead of trying to add additional power options to it.  

Reason most people don't use Druid in OW has little to do with Druid, it's the fact that Soulbeast lets you perma merge with your pet.  Outside of RP, I've seen few rangers actually use pet skills in OW, those are reserved for instanced content and especially competitive.  

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Reason most people don't use Druid in OW has little to do with Druid, it's the fact that Soulbeast lets you perma merge with your pet.  Outside of RP, I've seen few rangers actually use pet skills in OW, those are reserved for instanced content and especially competitive.  

I know petless ranger is popular, but I think that the parameters of the other specs do play a role. Untamed is known as a high-APM build, but I still see a few of those. Druid... the only thing that really gives you if you're not a healer is a few immobilise/CC gimmicks. And healers don't perform well in open world as a general rule.

[Beddo.1907]

Condi DPS druid was pretty fun open world build back in the day. Decent dps, with a safety net from CA made it possible to solo HoT. 

They will probably change CA with trait/s to do some form of damage.

[Nimon.7840]

Hopefully dps druid is just an excuse to remove Entangle and ancient seeds... Super unfun to play against.

 

We have to see how anet tackles that task. Same with tempest. Especially when tempest is one of the top abusers of cele stats in wvw. Hopefully there will be a clear line between support and dps tempest same with druid.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Only thing they need to do to turn it into a DPS is to remove the CD on Ancient Seeds.