disable stealth for first 10 seconds at the start of 2s and 3s - OR - limit stealth duration stack per class

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

^ thread title

There is way way way too much stealth potential in this game now to allow stealth open for every ***ing round of 2s and 3s. It turns the open of each round into a predictable "stealth check" to see who can wait out the other team who has less stealth to benefit the stealth open. It's dumb and predictable and hardly feels balanced.

It needs to stop. Just put a 10s reveal on everyone when the match first starts. I mean if you want god tier levels of stealth potential to stay in this game, something like this is going to need to be implemented into 2s and 3s.

 

OR alternatively:

Maybe maximum stealth durations should vary from class to class, like health pools.

Off the top of my head:

1. War - 3s
2. Guard - 3s
3. Herald - 3s
4. Ranger - 3s
5. Engi - 3s
6. Thief - Unlimited
7. Mes - 6s
8. Necro - 3s
9. Ele - 3s

I would imagine the mechanics should function as, no matter where a class is receiving the stealth from, it can only be buffed to the maximum duration for that class. IE: a Thief blasting stealth on a War could keep resetting the maximum 3s to 3s, but it could never prebuff the War over 3s of stealth. So if anyone really wanted to keep a full team in-stealth, they'd essentially have to stop and stand still and perpetually blast, which is a fair trade off imo considering they can't rotate normally will perma stealthing, outside of Thief which gets to be an exception for obvious reasons.

This is actually amazingly ideal because it wouldn't change much gameplay at all concerning something like DH using Trap Runes to do its thing, but what it would suppress is very specifically the problem with cycling waaay too large & elongated of full team stealth prebuff for full party stealth ganks.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Is stealth usefull and enjoyable to use in pve? 

[Downstate.4697]

Well, there is always the option to just go far. If it’s that predictable or has an influence in the match then ask your team to adjust. As annoying as it is to see, that’s all it is.

[shion.2084]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ thread title

There is way way way too much stealth potential in this game now to allow stealth open for every ***ing round of 2s and 3s. It turns the open of each round into a predictable "stealth check" to see who can wait out the other team who has less stealth to benefit the stealth open. It's dumb and predictable and hardly feels balanced.

It needs to stop. Just put a 10s reveal on everyone when the match first starts. I mean if you want god tier levels of stealth potential to stay in this game, something like this is going to need to be implemented into 2s and 3s.

Said it before will say it again, stealth , ports, invuln,  should all come with a debuf  to power and condition damage for a fixed time after they are performed (or end).   
 

this would stop silly port ganks, group stealth bombs, etc.  you’d be using these things strategically then when you needed to position or defend, not to be able to leap a level up, through a solid wall to unseen gank a point.

Edited May 8, 2023 by shion.2084

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Good idea

But 5s could be enough

Edited May 8, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Bazsi.2734]

Terrible idea. You want to disable a mechanic that some classes depends on, and one class CAN NOT choose not to. On the other hand, it would further ruin 2v2/3v3, and maybe a-net would finally take it out of the rotations so I could actually play conquest in ranked.
So...  this is a gOoD IdEA. Buff minions and make AoE-s in general pulse more conditions while you're at it. TDM needs to die.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[Endo.1652]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

Said it before will say it again, stealth , ports, invuln,  should all come with a debuf  to power and condition damage for a fixed time after they are performed (or end).   
 

this would stop silly port ganks, group stealth bombs, etc.  you’d be using these things strategically then when you needed to position or defend, not to be able to leap a level up, through a solid wall to unseen gank a point.

Then theif would be forever trash since its entire style is built around ports and stealth

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

40 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Terrible idea. You want to disable a mechanic that some classes depends on

That's the point though, ALL classes are dependent on this now for small arena openings. It's just kind of bad flavor. Every 2s or 3s match we are looking at the inevitable "who can stack more stealth to out-stealth the other team for the gank" and even in team fights in conquest it's kind of redundant after awhile as well, just who can out-stealth.

It isn't just thieves and mesmers anymore man. They added way way too much stealth access across the intra-class dynamic.

If you notice though, in the OP post, I am specifically talking about just 2s and 3s arenas. The dynamic is ****ing stale dude, when every round is just "who can stealth longer to create the instant 2v1".

I am not talking about class balance my dude. I'm talking about keeping the game fun in general.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Bazsi.2734]

25 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's the point though, ALL classes are dependent on this now for small arena openings. It's just kind of bad flavor. Every 2s or 3s match we are looking at the inevitable "who can stack more stealth to out-stealth the other team for the gank" and even in team fights in conquest it's kind of redundant after awhile as well, just who can out-stealth.

It isn't just thieves and mesmers anymore man. They added way way too much stealth access across the intra-class dynamic.

If you notice though, in the OP post, I am specifically talking about just 2s and 3s arenas. The dynamic is ****ing stale dude, when every round is just "who can stealth longer to create the instant 2v1".

I am not talking about class balance my dude. I'm talking about keeping the game fun in general.

Entering 2v2 as a deadeye and not being able to use 2 traitlines and your core class mechanic for 20 seconds would be fun I'm sure. You lose the fight before you can spend your malice lmao.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Also want to point out that in conquest we have to hold nodes and this single mechanic sort of keeps stealth play in check because you can't hold nodes while full perma stealthing. However in 2s and 3s arenas, there are no nodes and no mechanics to keep ultra perma stealth from being seriously exploited and abused. This is especially true when starting every round in a small arena that has a bunch of obstruction between you and the other team, to absolutely encourage abusing the hell out of massively large stealth prebuffs, which after you get the immediate 2v1 and the gimmik works, ALL YOUR COOL-DOWNS auto reset to do it again when the gate opens again, and it's just really like an even worse version of abusing Lich timer back when it was as thing.

A think a 10s interval of time to get to the perma-stealthers and reveal or strike them before they enter the abusive gimmick is more than a reasonable mechanic to implement into 2s and 3s.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Entering 2v2 as a deadeye and not being able to use 2 traitlines and your core class mechanic for 20 seconds would be fun I'm sure. You lose the fight before you can spend your malice lmao.

Yeah just LOS for 10 seconds like everyone else does. Not hard to do.

In Asuran Arena you have a ton of LOS to play with. In Auric you have a massive wall of LOS in between you and the other team, including your spawn arena presenting even more LOS. In Halls you have pillars and all kinds of weird blind spot kind of LOS to spend the first 10 seconds playing around before entering your perma stealth cycles.

10s to catch you before you enter perma stealth gank routines is more than reasonable.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Bazsi.2734]

Just now, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah just LOS for 10 seconds like everyone else does. Not hard to do.

So now its just 10 seconds, not 20. Okay, so we just run away for 10 seconds, then we pop stealth.... and that's when the match starts. What exactly did we solve?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

29 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

So now its just 10 seconds, not 20. Okay, so we just run away for 10 seconds, then we pop stealth.... and that's when the match starts. What exactly did we solve?

Bro I never said anything about it being 20s. The statement of 10s is in the title of the thread.

What exactly would it solve? People abusing perma stealth routines to create immediate 2v1 situations that cannot be avoided that has no counter-play. What do you not understand about this? Have you never went in to play in a 2v2? You act like you've never seen this before.

Let me detail a particular scenario where this is ultra abusive:

1. You are against a good Scrapper and a good Core Thief "who has really high damage".
2. Right when the gate opens, the Scrapper uses Sneak Gyro and the Thief blasts into the Sneak Gyro + whatever other stealth components he brings. The Scrapper can also leap & blast in the Gyro. Now you have this enormous amount of stealth pre-buff which can be maintained if needed, by the Thief's initiative and w/e other CDs for stealth he has not used yet, as well as additional leaps & blasts from the Scrapper. They WILL wait you out if you cannot front equal or greater stealth potential.
3. When your team reveals or maybe they weren't stealth at the opening at all, the Scrapper and the Core Thief have every component necessary to create an immediate and I do mean immediate/instant downstate to create 2v1. Stability won't stop it because the Thief has a ton of boon removal with steal. Blocks won't stop it because of Basilisk Venom. And you won't be able to react to the coordinated damage burst quickly enough to even use a skill like Endure Pain or a dodge roll. If you've never seen good players coordinate out of stealth cheese ganks like this, let me tell you, your health bar goes from 100% to 0% instantly from damage output like this. A Scrapper alone or a Core Thief alone, can 1shot things in like .50 seconds, but when they coordinate it together, it actually looks like you got caught by a raid boss mechanic and your health goes from 100% to 0% instantly, with no reflex time.
4. The DPS output is so high that all they have to do is keep it up for another 1 second to cleave the body into full death, which presents no time for any revive skills to go off. If they are concerned about someone reviving, all they have to do is turn that DPS output and CC power on the 2nd player and that player will not be able to stand and cast a revive before being CC'd and put into downstate. Even if he does manage to somehow land the revive skill, he'll be in downstate by the time his partner gets up, still rendering a 2v1 against him.

With this scenario ^ this is busted and cheese for 2s and 3s. In a normal Conquest match, after those players burn their resources for such a powerful opener, then there is a significantly large timeframe where they are vulnerable for other people who are in the large 5v5 map to target them and easily kill them. Even when they come off of respawn, their big CDs are probably still on CD. But in a 2v2 match, there are no other players to capitalize on striking them after they use that big opener gimmick. The round just ends immediately as soon as they create the instant 2v1, and then all of those big CDs reset so they can do it again. There isn't even punishment time for the squishy builds they run because they are able to kill the 2 targets in the small arena so quickly that they prevent the opening of that punishment time.

My dude this is broken in 2s and 3s. There needs to be some kind of a buffer time before players can initiate perma-stealth cheese techniques. It's really making 2s & 3s feel stale as all hell. And we can INB4 you tell me "Well then just play something that also can stealth" <- Because that is exactly what I am complaining about here. I don't want the game to be ultimate stealth wars 2 in every round of every match I play. It's a bad flavor and shuts out the viability off too many other classes/builds and just team comp combos in general, which is stupid bad design.

I just want the game to have some flexibility and be fun man.

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[FiveBunnies.5730]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

However in 2s and 3s arenas, there are no nodes and no mechanics to keep ultra perma stealth from being seriously exploited and abused.

After mass attacking the square from my fire ele, the invisible character comes out of invisibility already fallen. Mass attacks are the solution to the problem you speak of.

[Bazsi.2734]

53 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Bro I never said anything about it being 20s. The statement of 10s is in the title of the thread.

What exactly would it solve? People abusing perma stealth routines to create immediate 2v1 situations that cannot be avoided that has no counter-play. What do you not understand about this? Have you never went in to play in a 2v2? You act like you've never seen this before.

Let me detail a particular scenario where this is ultra abusive:

1. You are against a good Scrapper and a good Core Thief "who has really high damage".
2. Right when the gate opens, the Scrapper uses Sneak Gyro and the Thief blasts into the Sneak Gyro + whatever other stealth components he brings. The Scrapper can also leap & blast in the Gyro. Now you have this enormous amount of stealth pre-buff which can be maintained if needed, by the Thief's initiative and w/e other CDs for stealth he has not used yet, as well as additional leaps & blasts from the Scrapper. They WILL wait you out if you cannot front equal or greater stealth potential.
3. When your team reveals or maybe they weren't stealth at the opening at all, the Scrapper and the Core Thief have every component necessary to create an immediate and I do mean immediate/instant downstate to create 2v1. Stability won't stop it because the Thief has a ton of boon removal with steal. Blocks won't stop it because of Basilisk Venom. And you won't be able to react to the coordinated damage burst quickly enough to even use a skill like Endure Pain or a dodge roll. If you've never seen good players coordinate out of stealth cheese ganks like this, let me tell you, your health bar goes from 100% to 0% instantly from damage output like this. A Scrapper alone or a Core Thief alone, can 1shot things in like .50 seconds, but when they coordinate it together, it actually looks like you got caught by a raid boss mechanic and your health goes from 100% to 0% instantly, with no reflex time.
4. The DPS output is so high that all they have to do is keep it up for another 1 second to cleave the body into full death, which presents no time for any revive skills to go off. If they are concerned about someone reviving, all they have to do is turn that DPS output and CC power on the 2nd player and that player will not be able to stand and cast a revive before being CC'd and put into downstate. Even if he does manage to somehow land the revive skill, he'll be in downstate by the time his partner gets up, still rendering a 2v1 against him.

With this scenario ^ this is busted and cheese for 2s and 3s. In a normal Conquest match, after those players burn their resources for such a powerful opener, then there is a significantly large timeframe where they are vulnerable for other people who are in the large 5v5 map to target them and easily kill them. Even when they come off of respawn, their big CDs are probably still on CD. But in a 2v2 match, there are no other players to capitalize on striking them after they use that big opener gimmick. The round just ends immediately as soon as they create the instant 2v1, and then all of those big CDs reset so they can do it again. There isn't even punishment time for the squishy builds they run because they are able to kill the 2 targets in the small arena so quickly that they prevent the opening of that punishment time.

My dude this is broken in 2s and 3s. There needs to be some kind of a buffer time before players can initiate perma-stealth cheese techniques. It's really making 2s & 3s feel stale as all hell. And be can INB4 you tell me "Well then just play something that also can stealth" <- Because that is exactly what I am complaining about here. I don't want the game to be ultimate stealth wars 2 in every round of every match I play. It's a bad flavor and shuts out the viability off too many other classes/builds and just team comp combos in general, which is stupid bad design.

I just want the game to have some flexibility and be fun man.

 

I know how to stack stealth in this game, but thank you the explanation regardless. I can explain how I would deal with that very scenario, but in less detail: both of you be tools holo, be spamming grenades. Unless they can pull off an 1200 range LoS-ignoring port, they aren't getting to you without getting revealed/blinded/vulnstacked first. If they are chicken, at one point you can randomly start pushing and catch them trying to prolong their stealth.
There, problem solved. If you really care to win against cheese, just cheese them back.

Also if the problem is that 2v2 and 3v3 is being stale... it was like that for me after 1 season. It's one part of conquest, where you have to win a side skirmish. Except not even that, because you can't retreat. There are no rotations, no +1-s, it's literally just winning a fight. That's boring for me, I spent close to a decade playing conqest before that. And for all of you who have similar histories... TDM will just not be fun for you on the long run. The game is not balanced with TDM in mind,  it's easy to cheese, and it's very VERY bare bones compared to the main game-mode. You can delete stealth from 2v2/3v3, it will solve nothing. People will find some other dumb thing to stack. Get on your engineer. 😛

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

Then theif would be forever trash since its entire style is built around ports and stealth

I would possibly make the class mechanic for theif that it could avoid the penalty.  As long as it was carefully balanced around.  And just for the theif class itself.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

31 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I know how to stack stealth in this game, but thank you the explanation regardless. I can explain how I would deal with that very scenario, but in less detail: both of you be tools holo, be spamming grenades.

Yup but I shouldn't have to play SPECIFICALLY only Engineer that spams grenades for Lock-On.

This is what I meant when I said: 

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

we can INB4 you tell me "Well then just play something that also can stealth"

Your response here is an alternative version of a copout response like this ^ where you are avoiding my main point, which is ill-design that forces an incredibly narrow meta where only 2 or 3 very specific build structures are even capable of seriously dealing with some overly abusive mechanic that shouldn't exist to begin with because it forces 75% or greater of the selectable classes/options in the game into a state of not only "not-viable" but actually completely dysfunctional and void any use at all.

A good example of classic Arenanet mistakes along these lines, is adding way way way too much anti-projectile into the game, where in higher tiered play, players very seriously have close to 80% to 90% anti-projectile uptime. Decisions like this don't just make a pistol or rifle or bow sort of not viable, but rather completely dysfunctional and no longer a part of the game, as they have been rendered obsolete in the face of melee, channels, instant no-travel-time spell effects, and ground targets.

Again, what I"m discussing here is going way way past usual discussions about intra-class balance "how powerful this is compared to how strong this is". I'm talking about keeping the mechanics of the game fun and reasonable.

To get away from the desensitization that people feel for their class in GW2, let me give you an alternative example of mechanics that would be dumb in a different game:

Imagine playing Street Fighter II where Only Ryu and Ken could make themselves stealth for 10 seconds. Ryu and Ken are also the only characters with an ability to throw grenades at the floor that can reveal things that are invisible. So only Ryu and Ken possess the ultra ability to go invisible and only Ryu and Ken can combat each other's invisibility. Clearly this results in situation where the only characters that were viable in serious competition, will be Ryu and Ken.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Bazsi.2734]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yup but I shouldn't have to play SPECIFICALLY only Engineer that spams grenades for Lock-On.

This is what I meant when I said: 

Your response here is an alternative version of a copout response like this ^ where you are avoiding my main point, which is ill-design that forces an incredibly narrow meta where only 2 or 3 very specific build structures are even capable of seriously dealing with some overly abusive mechanic that shouldn't exist to begin with because it forces 75% or greater of the selectable classes/options in the game into a state of not only "not-viable" but actually completely dysfunctional and void any use at all.

A good example of classic Arenanet mistakes along these lines, is adding way way way too much anti-projectile into the game, where in higher tiered play, players very seriously have close to 80% to 90% anti-projectile uptime. Decisions like this don't just make a pistol or rifle or bow sort of not viable, but rather completely dysfunctional and no longer a part of the game, as they have been rendered obsolete in the face of melee, channels, instant no-travel-time spell effects, and ground targets.

Again, what I"m discussing here is going way way past usual discussions about intra-class balance "how powerful this is compared to how strong this is". I'm talking about keeping the mechanics of the game fun and reasonable.

To get away from the desensitization that people feel for their class in GW2, let me give you an alternative example of mechanics that would be dumb in a different game:

Imagine playing Street Fighter II where Only Ryu and Ken could make themselves stealth for 10 seconds. Ryu and Ken are also the only characters with an ability to throw grenades at the floor that can reveal things that are invisible. So only Ryu and Ken possess the ultra ability to go invisible and only Ryu and Ken can combat each other's invisibility. Clearly this results in situation where the only characters that were viable in serious competition, will be Ryu and Ken.

I mean... if you want to roleplay your favorite class&build, my solution is not for you. This is like playing rock-paper-scissors, knowing what the enemy will play, and still losing. I'm doing that to make my nephews happy(the oldest one goes to school already), so I kind of understand... but why treat the enemy like they are 5 when you can just reroll and grind them to dust? This game is called Build Wars 2 for a reason. 
 

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

You wouldn't even need to do this if they remade all of the maps(yea I know that's asking a lot). The 2v2/3v3 maps are kinda kitten cause they are way too small. Courtyard 3v3 would actually be fun. 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

41 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

You wouldn't even need to do this if they remade all of the maps(yea I know that's asking a lot). The 2v2/3v3 maps are kinda kitten cause they are way too small. Courtyard 3v3 would actually be fun. 

 

And that was all that needed to be said.

Thread is done now.

[magickthief.6492]

9 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's the point though, ALL classes are dependent on this now for small arena openings. It's just kind of bad flavor. Every 2s or 3s match we are looking at the inevitable "who can stack more stealth to out-stealth the other team for the gank" and even in team fights in conquest it's kind of redundant after awhile as well, just who can out-stealth.

It isn't just thieves and mesmers anymore man. They added way way too much stealth access across the intra-class dynamic.

If you notice though, in the OP post, I am specifically talking about just 2s and 3s arenas. The dynamic is ****ing stale dude, when every round is just "who can stealth longer to create the instant 2v1".

I am not talking about class balance my dude. I'm talking about keeping the game fun in general.

Disable all aoe for the first 10 seconds after entering initial combat, including ranged cast aoe.

[Dr Meta.3158]

11 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Well, there is always the option to just go far. If it’s that predictable or has an influence in the match then ask your team to adjust. As annoying as it is to see, that’s all it is.

This person didn't read.

10 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Terrible idea. You want to disable a mechanic that some classes depends on, and one class CAN NOT choose not to. On the other hand, it would further ruin 2v2/3v3, and maybe a-net would finally take it out of the rotations so I could actually play conquest in ranked.
So...  this is a gOoD IdEA. Buff minions and make AoE-s in general pulse more conditions while you're at it. TDM needs to die.

Yeah this game isn't  well made for deathmatches of any size.  Though its not great for conquest either...

2 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

You wouldn't even need to do this if they remade all of the maps(yea I know that's asking a lot). The 2v2/3v3 maps are kinda kitten cause they are way too small. Courtyard 3v3 would actually be fun. 

 

Truth

[Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259]

9 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

However in 2s and 3s arenas, there are no nodes and no mechanics to keep ultra perma stealth from being seriously exploited and abused.

At the timer end, 2v2 and 3v3 mode does not allow stealth at all. This makes it easy to win if you are a bunker team against a stealth based team. If it is two teams without support trying to burst each other and the deciding factor is stealth then maybe one team should adapt given it gives you time between each round to do so. Stealth is fine. 

[Burnfall.9573]

15 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ thread title

There is way way way too much stealth potential in this game now to allow stealth open for every ***ing round of 2s and 3s. It turns the open of each round into a predictable "stealth check" to see who can wait out the other team who has less stealth to benefit the stealth open. It's dumb and predictable and hardly feels balanced.

It needs to stop. Just put a 10s reveal on everyone when the match first starts. I mean if you want god tier levels of stealth potential to stay in this game, something like this is going to need to be implemented into 2s and 3s.

 

This is another case of The Community wanting to reach a middle ground with Anet in resolving Stealth Mechanic. 

 

Even Thief Profession players; who are also part of our Community want to reach a middle ground with Anet in resolving Stealth Mechanic.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/128239-stealth-rework-idea-1562/page/2/#comment-1891883

 

Now who are the bad guys?

Edited May 9, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

So it takes over 10 years for average player to finally notice that unbalanced mechanic is in fact unbalanced? Wow, noted, 10 more years if this game will exist by that time we may see topics about boons and conditions.
Restrict stealth to 3s that can't be prolonged/stacked after which you get revealed for 3s. 
Problem solved.