Delete Ranger Downstate

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Or at least disable pet abilities. 3 ccs and a free rez is dumb af.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

They just need to fix the long standing bug where disabling the pet doesn't put the channel on cd. They just keep reviving after the cc expires, and they shouldn't.  Downstate shouldn't be just as combat effective as being up.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

You shouldn't have access to pet abilities when in down state. Your only supposed to have 4 skills right? So why have access to pet abilities giving down state for rangers more then 4 abilities. I swere this game is just riddled with stupidity and it's one major reason why it failed in the ESL. 

[Zyreva.1078]

34 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

They just need to fix the long standing bug where disabling the pet doesn't put the channel on cd. They just keep reviving after the cc expires, and they shouldn't.  Downstate shouldn't be just as combat effective as being up.

It's not a bug tho. Pet rez functions exactly like player rez - that one doesn't go on cd when interrupted either. So yea, nerf downstate and ressing - not just for ranger.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

50 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

They just need to fix the long standing bug where disabling the pet doesn't put the channel on cd. They just keep reviving after the cc expires, and they shouldn't.  Downstate shouldn't be just as combat effective as being up.

> kill the pet
> ranger presses 3
> pet start ressing and is also... invulnerable for 3s...? For some reason? So you can't stop the res anymore?

I'm not questioning the necessity for lick wounds to res the pet (I actually am, but let's pretend for a second). But... why the kitten should it be invulnerable?

Edited May 12, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Downstate needs to be normalized in competitive modes. Everyone should have the same health and skills. I'd vote for guardian since its got one of the more balanced downstates. The self rez is strong enough that you can rez yourself if left alone, but not op like pet rez that can literally rez through being cleaved.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

It's not a bug tho. Pet rez functions exactly like player rez - that one doesn't go on cd when interrupted either. So yea, nerf downstate and ressing - not just for ranger.

 

Its a bug as noted by the wiki. 

Also that comparison is silly. If you command a pet to do anything else, interrupting it puts the skill on cooldown. It should be the same for Lick Wounds. What would your justification be for otherwise?

I shouldn't have to point out that this is downstate. The ranger lost the engagement, but currently requires significantly more damage investment to prevent a rally than any other class despite arguably having as good or better upstate tools than its competitors.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[ventress.4879]

Lol Ranger downstate is far from being OP. You essentially have to kill the pet once they push 3, that is about it. 

You can also infinitly keep them from dying which could be looked at as an exploit of the pet resurrect. 

 

The reality is the Ranger downstate has almost no damage unlike some classes who can get a massive damage boost when going down, Thief/Mesmer for example. It's also incredibly easy to prevent there stun while other professions like Necro and Guardian have a much better CC. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by ventress.4879

[aymnad.9023]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Its a bug as noted by the wiki.

Wiki is updated by players so it does not answer the question. When was it decided that it was a bug? It looks like someone added it after PoF release without any explanation and I cannot remember if it worked differently or not before (I think it was the same but I could be wrong it was so long ago). Also making it just full stop would make it worse than a necromancer Life leech.

Edited May 13, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Stand The Wall.6987]

yeah dead pet res takes the cake as the dumbest down state mechanic in the game

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

. When was it decided that it was a bug?

 

The current functionality is a result of a patch that was intended to fix a bug in which ranger pets would merely return to, but not revive, rangers when they used Lick Wounds.  Theres no official statement that the current functionality is bugged, but it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that the functionality was changed to make the skill more reliable and that the fact that the pet perma channels is a result of the funtionality having some overreach. (See: underwater lick wounds continues to rev you even if the pet is defeated, and there has been no word on or fix for this either. )

2 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

 Also making it just full stop would make it worse than a necromancer Life leech.

Necros dont expect to rez off of life leech. You're supposed to be able to rez if you're left alone or kill something, and ranger has bandage and pet damage to make that happen for close fights. 

Lick Wounds still does too much for a lost fight. Nobody else gets a revival means that strong. I'd have a different opinion if rangers didn't also have a rock solid upstate but they do. It makes sense that it isn't on the radar since it only negatively affects the one game mode in a situation where the ranger likely dies anyway, but its still overtuned. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[aymnad.9023]

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

The current functionality is a result of a patch that was intended to fix a bug in which ranger pets would merely return to, but not revive, rangers when they used Lick Wounds. 

Wow… I probably was not paying attention at the time or was getting stomped before because I did not remember this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO_vstCSRtA

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Theres no official statement that the current functionality is bugged, but it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that the functionality was changed to make the skill more reliable and that the fact that the pet perma channels is a result of the funtionality having some overreach. (See: underwater lick wounds continues to rev you even if the pet is defeated, and there has been no word on or fix for this either. )

I feel like this does not really answer my question. I took me some time but I found this 2015 video (so before the functionality change you mentioned but I cannot find on the wiki). You might want to look at 18min30s. You can see the pet was already coming back after a push. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLvEEYg-_nY

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Necros dont expect to rez off of life leech. You're supposed to be able to rez if you're left alone or kill something, and ranger has bandage and pet damage to make that happen for close fights. 

Necro also has bandage or can deal damage while stabilizing on auto which has a way better cd / chance to go off in fights.

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Lick Wounds still does too much for a lost fight. Nobody else gets a revival means that strong. I'd have a different opinion if rangers didn't also have a rock solid upstate but they do. It makes sense that it isn't on the radar since it only negatively affects the one game mode in a situation where the ranger likely dies anyway, but its still overtuned. 

For me the worst case is backing up 2s before stomping if I have to wait for a cd and this can happen for other professions. Some profession have better damage, mobility, other have heals that cannot be stopped, so if they want to change it the new skill has to do something. (EDIT : and professions should not get downed skills according to up performances because this is not where the gameplay happens)

Edited May 13, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Zyreva.1078]

10 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Also that comparison is silly. If you command a pet to do anything else, interrupting it puts the skill on cooldown. It should be the same for Lick Wounds. What would your justification be for otherwise?

The skill "Lick Woulds" goes on cd when used, so that's not what you are interrupting when ccing the pet (it also goes on cd if the actual cast is interrupted btw). However once the pet is commanded to rez, it does exactly the same as a ressing player could do. The mechanics are the same.

I'm not saying that's how it should be btw, just that it's consistent with general downstate/rez mechanics and that i'd rather have the overall system reworked/toned down than just having a single class nerfed, that in practise doesn't cause any more issues than certain other downstate mechanics.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[SevlisBavles.3059]

Battle Standard is just as bad, if not even worse than pet rez

[Luthan.5236]

The main issue I see is the one (mentioned in the linked wiki article) where the pet resumes reviving after it gets interrupted by CC. A normal player can just press F again. But for special skills they are on cooldown after used.

And just interrupting it once should be possible for anyone. (Though there seem a lot of people that just in general ignore to use CD even when a team mate does rez they are not using their CC. Or they spam it and don't have one ready anmore.) Since I play engineer and like to use the invulnerability elixir - unless a player is rezzing hard and fast (or having a insta rez skill) I do not have problems with the ranger. When you know that they have that downed skill ... you can plan a bit ahead.

I think I barely know anything about the other classes besides my main (though I have one at level 80 for each - only played around with the core professions a bit though) but the downed skills are super important to know about. Can't waste my invulnerability elixir trying to safe stomp when I know the ele/thief/mesmer will just move away with the downed skill they have available early.

Ranger self-rez works best if their team mate knows what to do ... pressuring you so they get enough time to use that skill. If it would stop after an interrupt ... would be less of a problem for most - I guess.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[aymnad.9023]

30 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

The main issue I see is the one (mentioned in the linked wiki article) where the pet resumes reviving after it gets interrupted by CC. A normal player can just press F again. But for special skills they are on cooldown after used.

And just interrupting it once should be possible for anyone. (Though there seem a lot of people that just in general ignore to use CD even when a team mate does rez they are not using their CC. Or they spam it and don't have one ready anmore.) Since I play engineer and like to use the invulnerability elixir - unless a player is rezzing hard and fast (or having a insta rez skill) I do not have problems with the ranger. When you know that they have that downed skill ... you can plan a bit ahead.

I think I barely know anything about the other classes besides my main (though I have one at level 80 for each - only played around with the core professions a bit though) but the downed skills are super important to know about. Can't waste my invulnerability elixir trying to safe stomp when I know the ele/thief/mesmer will just move away with the downed skill they have available early.

Ranger self-rez works best if their team mate knows what to do ... pressuring you so they get enough time to use that skill. If it would stop after an interrupt ... would be less of a problem for most - I guess.

Once again what makes people (or made the person who updated the wiki and created this argument) think this is a bug? This was added by someone in 2017 without any explanation and I found a 2015 video where it was already happening. The pet stops healing you just like a player would if you cc him. It resumes after, just like a player could. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Luthan.5236]

Does the pet act like a player though? We don't know that. A player can attack a thief. Thief then going into stealth (player losing target) ... and the player then resuming the attack once the thief gets out of stealth.

Do pets resume the attack then? They might target another player and staying at that one ... until manually commaned to attack the other player. The pet could start to attack someone nearby instead. After an interrupt. Would make more sense. Or you add a timer to how long it can do the res. (Timer counting down while it is affected by the CC.) That way people could use CC to counter the ressurection. But it would not completely stop. It is a bit odd that it could be able to ressurect forever (if maybe you do dps on the downed player and the pet counters it with ressing and it takes a long time for one of both to "win").

The pet is not a player. So it should not act like a third player - for ressurection. (Where you'd have to constantly CC the player until you mange to kill the downed or killing the downed faster.)

Compared to the insta rez skills or downed - I think they have a higher CD though. Some are more annoying than annoying especially in 2 vs 2. So annoying that they almost seems mandatory. (Makes it annoying when both teams have a warrior and the one in your team does not seem to use battle standard.)

Edited May 13, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[JTGuevara.9018]

23 hours ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Or at least disable pet abilities. 3 ccs and a free rez is dumb af.

sigh...you're playing 2v2 aren't ya?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

delete tempest

[Balsa.3951]

i ask for a downstate balance for years

forum usually answers with L2p

[Balsa.3951]

11 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Once again what makes people (or made the person who updated the wiki and created this argument) think this is a bug? This was added by someone in 2017 without any explanation and I found a 2015 video where it was already happening. The pet stops healing you just like a player would if you cc him. It resumes after, just like a player could. 

not true

the pet get cc and ports back

nothing like a player

[bethekey.8314]

Guys, guys...cmon.

Sure, Rangers get double attacks while downed with their pet. And sure, they get a ranged, AoE daze to interrupt multiple targets trying to stomp. And sure, they can pet swap and add more CCs on top of that to prevent subsequent stomps right away. And sure, they get one of the best self-rez utilities built-in. And sure, their bows have an unspoken extra 300+ range. And sure, their pets are nigh-unkillable base with how pet swap works. And sure, their pets are more mobile, controllable, tanky, and require less sacrifice from the player compared to turrets, minions, and elementals.

But have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, they need those things to be on an even playing field with others? Equity, not equality. Rangers never win fights in upstate. If you lose to them, it's your fault, not your class. It's just different for Rangers, ok? Maybe you should pick yourself up by your bootstraps and L2P.

 

[Lighter.5631]

16 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

But have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, they need those things to be on an even playing field with others? 

 

 

are you trying to say ranger going in downstate is part of their gameplay rotation?

i thought the even playing field should be for when players are alive

a downed character has no business of being that busted unless it's part of their gameplay rotation, then you can consider it as part of ranger performance lol.

[aymnad.9023]

1 hour ago, Balsa.3951 said:

not true

the pet get cc and ports back

nothing like a player

I cannot tell if you do not know how it works or just described it poorly. It ports the pet on you when you use the skill (as described by the tooltip) then walks back if it has to move after getting hit by a cc (see video).

Edited May 13, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Balsa.3951]

7 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

I cannot tell if you do not know how it works or just described it poorly. It ports the pet on you when you use the skill (as described by the tooltip) then walks back if it gets hit by a cc.

not true. try it urself use a pushback on a pet they back immediately also did u ever push apet to fall down a platform?