Are thieves a problem?

[Deadmoose.6594]

How do you counter a thief? They can just go invis and run, then heal and come back. If you get one that skirts terrain, they're impossible to kill. I only play mes so I don't know what its like from the perspective of other classes, and I know thief is anti-mes basically. Just kind of tired of a thief having nearly unlimited success in pvp.

[Nightcore.5621]

Thiefs them self is not a problem but builds that give u 90% stealth uptime is a problem. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Nightcore.5621

[Khalisto.5780]

Thieves were always unfun to play against. A good thief will never die 1v1 unless they throw. 

From what i know they countet mesmer, i can see why, everything in mesmer is target, plus being elusive that is one of mesmer's strenght, thief is just better at this game.

[Hotride.2187]

My experience with games against a good thief (as a sidenode) is, you sit between home node and mid, hoping to play the game but not actually playing it. Cause if you go mid to help, the thief goes home and decaps. Then you gotta go home and cap, and they have extra time cause it takes less to decap than to cap. And if you stay at the node, the thief goes mid and your team is 4v5.

So the match is spent in mind games, where will the thief go, will the thief commit to mid, will the thief go for decap? And its kinda hard to tell with their stealth uptime.

Best you can do is waste their time at home node, if they for some reason try to duel you. Some thieves are like that. That they run away to reengage is actually a good thing, because you are wasting their time. If its a good thief it wont die, of course.

Dunno about mesmer specifically, I've read some time back that thief just kills mesmer and thats that. Dunno if that has changed.

Fighting the thief itself is not a problem, they are pretty toothless in spvp. In wvw they are killing machines, but in spvp you should be winning against one in a 1v1 (on a sidenode build). And by winning I mean, make them run away while you keep the node.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Downstate.4697]

You counter thief by going on dates with their dad until he falls in love. You get married and then you ground the thief player from electronics for saying racial slurs online.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

My experience with games against a good thief (as a sidenode) is, you sit between home node and mid, hoping to play the game but not actually playing it. Cause if you go mid to help, the thief goes home and decaps. Then you gotta go home and cap, and they have extra time cause it takes less to decap than to cap. And if you stay at the node, the thief goes mid and your team is 4v5.

So the match is spent in mind games, where will the thief go, will the thief commit to mid, will the thief go for decap? And its kinda hard to tell with their stealth uptime.

Best you can do is waste their time at home node, if they for some reason try to duel you. Some thieves are like that. That they run away to reengage is actually a good thing, because you are wasting their time. If its a good thief it wont die, of course.

Dunno about mesmer specifically, I've read some time back that thief just kills mesmer and thats that. Dunno if that has changed.

Fighting the thief itself is not a problem, they are pretty toothless in spvp. In wvw they are killing machines, but in spvp you should be winning against one in a 1v1 (on a sidenode build). And by winning I mean, make them run away while you keep the node.

This is pretty much it. Most thieves aren't a huge combat threat, it's just the constant resets, decaps, and the ability to keep those up all day. It forces you to make sub-optimal decisions that the thief can then exploit.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Being able to leave combat and regain life and a restart while stealth, all the while ur enemy is crippled and unable to reset is unfair. 

There are no negative effects of invisibility, and the devs refuse to balance it out like all other games have done.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Burnfall.9573]

Thief Profession have been a problem since Guild Wars 2 beta. So much a problem that Anet continued to make them more of a problem by equipping them with a version of Mesmer Profession 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Portal

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portal_Entre

than mocked The Community concerns by stealing and hijacking Necromancer Profession shroud with the release of  Thief Profession: Elite-  Spectar

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Specter

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shroud

Throughout the year including now, the joke is on The Community, while Anet continues to laugh at our faces.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I think Thieves are okay in PvP, because they have limited space to retreat. However in WvW they're a nuisance since they can basically run across the entire map. I've never once felt like stealth was the problem, but rather their ability to disengage and then re-engage you over and over and over again.

 

Stealth has its own problems, but they're far from being specific to Thieves.

Edited May 20, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[senftube.6081]

57 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I think Thieves are okay in PvP, because they have limited space to retreat. However in WvW they're a nuisance since they can basically run across the entire map. I've never once felt like stealth was the problem, but rather their ability to disengage and then re-engage you over and over and over again.

 

Stealth has its own problems, but they're far from being specific to Thieves.

Thief has to do this it is called kiting and ooc. And this is because thief as one of the lowest HP pools, is squishy has heck, has not that much boons, has no invuls, medium armor and subbar "on point" fight abilities and it is a rogue class at the end. For me thief is in a good spot and it is only fair that this class is good in roaming because it is pretty trashy in zerging and that since rls.

 

In PvP thief is pretty good balanced atm. But it is a joke that they can't give this class more roles to fill. Roamer since rls becomes pretty boring and specter is big trash atm. Also this class has a pretty high skillcap and roaming role is one of the hardest roles in pvp. So that means that often those thief players are A masochists or B skilled players.

Edited May 20, 2023 by senftube.6081

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

*Clash of Clans laugh*

Every time someone gets mildly annoyed by a thief I get a crumb of dopamine. 

Quote

thief players are A masochists or B skilled players.

Its both

Edited May 20, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

19 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Every time someone gets mildly annoyed by a thief I get a crumb of dopamine. 

You are very very welcome!

[Bazsi.2734]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:24 PM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

How do you counter a thief? They can just go invis and run, then heal and come back. If you get one that skirts terrain, they're impossible to kill. I only play mes so I don't know what its like from the perspective of other classes, and I know thief is anti-mes basically. Just kind of tired of a thief having nearly unlimited success in pvp.

Mesmer was originally hardcountered by thief. Unless you utilise the kits of chrono/virt to make an unkillable bunker, a thief will always beat you by design. Offensively built mesmer is pretty much the only thing a thief can reliably beat.
Thief over the years was pushed further and further into the "fastest but weakest duelist" role, which means it will always have a place in conquest, and good players will gravitate towards playing the role. To really be effective on thief you have to dance on a razors edge. Being offensive makes you vulnerable, and you have to judge accurately how much you can get away with. This is why new players just die in 2 hits, and experienced veterans are unkillable "gods". You can mitigate their impact by focusing them as soon as they engage, chasing them off - but killing them is just not realistic in most scenarios.

[Greyrat.2378]

What you are describing as issue is stealth as mechanic, which does not apply only for thieves but in general how stealth is implemented in this game without any major drawbacks as opposed to other games where stealth has it's own limitations.

Considering that this has been discussed many times over the years of GW2 yet the problem still persists, I believe that this is something you will just have to make your peace with if you want to have some fun in PvP/WvW.

 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Stealth is a bit of a problem, but I usually don't waste my time on chasing invisible players and go do something productive instead.

But most problems I had with thieves have been addressed by nerfing DeadEye and buffing the Elementalist a bit. Issues I had when DeadEye was new are a thing of the past now.

2017

[Dadnir.5038]

Thiefs aren't a problem, stealth design is.

[Burnfall.9573]

On 5/22/2023 at 1:43 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Thiefs aren't a problem, stealth design is.

Thief Profession design also is the problem.

-This is why the Pioneers of Guild Wars refused to design a Toxic design Profession like Thief Profession in Guild Wars 2 for Guild Wars Assassin Profession. Not to exclude, also refusing to incorporate Stealth Mechanic in their game; Guild Wars 1.

Stealth Mechanic was already in the marketplace long before Guild Wars release with also having many versions of Guild Wars 2-Thief Profession in the marketplace, long before Guild Wars.

The Pioneers of Guild Wars had many options, choices and decisions on the table while designing Assassin Profession.  

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles

They instead, chose to incorporate Healthy, Competitive Design to their Philosophy and Vision to not only the Assassin Profession but to all the Professions in Guild Wars.

The Pioneers of Guild Wars were strong leaders, inspirers, unique, true at heart and were purpose driven, they were not followers as the others in the gaming industry, they were different. 

In the end, it paid off. 

Guild Wars was a Great Success in the gaming industry. Attracting, Promoting and Incorporating a healthy competitive experience and skillful experience for all type of players in the gaming industry. 

So much of success in Guild Wars; there were also not found, any shot design or intended exploit and abuse in Assassin Profession design 

Whereas, Thief Profession remains and continues to one shot since Guild Wars 2 beta with incorporating more intentional Toxic add-ons to freely exploit and abuse its mechanic by design for 11 years+

Therefore, If Anet Thief Profession problem was only in its Stealth design, what are its success in promoting the gaming industry?, including its affect in its promoting all type of players to Guild Wars 2?

---One thing I would say for sure, if the Pioneers of Guild Wars 2 were giving a chance to step into the future to witness the development of Guild Wars ....they would all resign before the design of Guild Wars 2----

 

"If your actions inspires other to dream more, learn more, and become more. You Are A Leader"

Guild Wars

Edited May 24, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[eXruina.4956]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:24 AM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

How do you counter a thief?

normally, you don't, unless they do something that lets you.

 

knowing when and how they're engaging and disengaging, how much initiative they potentially have left, keeping tabs on their defensive cooldowns, and some other details, all help.

but ultimately a thief that knows how to manage their resources will never be at risk if they don't want to be.

 

honestly they don't even have to be that skilled, just skilled enough to understand and abuse basic thief mechanics.

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Thief Profession design also is the problem.

-snip-

I think you don't quite understand why I say "stealth design is the problem".

What I mean is that the absolute invisibility with 0 drawback that stealth is in GW2 is the problem (which ultimately is the reason why trapper runes have been, and still are, so controversial). Personally I've never seen another game with a stealth mechanic that have as little drawback as GW2's (movement not slowed in stealth, incoming damage don't break stealth, ability to enter stealth even while in front of a foe, undetectable, total invisibility, outgoing damage blocked or evaded don't break stealth... etc.).

On another hand, thief's design itself is fine. The idea of being strengthen when entering/exiting a state isn't bad. Consuming a "buff" to use a skill (stealth attack) is "ok". Using ressource in order to use skills is a standard design in the industry... etc.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think you don't quite understand why I say "stealth design is the problem".

What I mean is that the absolute invisibility with 0 drawback that stealth is in GW2 is the problem (which ultimately is the reason why trapper runes have been, and still are, so controversial). Personally I've never seen another game with a stealth mechanic that have as little drawback as GW2's (movement not slowed in stealth, incoming damage don't break stealth, ability to enter stealth even while in front of a foe, undetectable, total invisibility, outgoing damage blocked or evaded don't break stealth... etc.).

I completely understand the challenges the mechanic faces, but I'm firmly of the opinion that it would be easier for players to adapt to the behaviors associated with stealth to fight the thief, than it would be to rework the profession and every class that can potentially have access to stealth.

 

3 hours ago, eXruina.4956 said:

normally, you don't, unless they do something that lets you.

knowing when and how they're engaging and disengaging, how much initiative they potentially have left, keeping tabs on their defensive cooldowns, and some other details, all help.

but ultimately a thief that knows how to manage their resources will never be at risk if they don't want to be.

honestly they don't even have to be that skilled, just skilled enough to understand and abuse basic thief mechanics.

Half of this is right, half of this is wrong.

Bolded is correct.  Knowing how a thief works and being able to draw conclusions on the thiefs playstyle based on the weapons they engage you with, and adapt your playstyle to interfere with their engage advantage are important for dealing with them. 

Its very doable though. I win engagements constantly vs them on power zerker because I also play one and have a blueprint for how they tend to want to behave in stealth. Since I know all their weaponsets, I can adapt how I respond to each one. Some of the engagements I have a hard time winning, but those builds have weaknesses I specifically didnt build for. 

They pull out a rifle or pistols? Line of sight.

 running dagger pistol? Save cleanse for port+dagger 3 and pressure them when they have no init.

Dagger pistol? Dodge towards any shadow shots, they're still visible even when the thief isnt. Attack the area immediately around you to punish any ports. If they're power, they want to land backstab, so they'll be in range 3 seconds from their last stealth if they have enough hp to feel aggressive.

Thieves need to be skilled to not immediately die vs a competent player.  If you don't believe me, try it for yourself.  If you're having difficulty vs a thief, chances are that thief read thier book and yours, and you will need to have done the same to not be beaten up. 

 

[Zekent.3652]

To OP, i don't know, but the class feels really annoying to deal with, and for some reason only (most of) the (forum) thieves mains defends the toxic stealth spam mechanic.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Zizekent.2398

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

You hold the node and waste their time, that's the counter

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

27 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

To OP, i don't know, but the class feels really annoying to deal with, and for some reason only (most of) the (forum) thieves mains defends the toxic stealth spam mechanic.

It's because (most of) the (forum) players decided thief damage was too much, then stealth, then blind uptime, then mobility, then stealth again, then vigor/acro/sword, then staff, then init costs, and now we're back on debating stealth for like the third time after a slew of nerfs made the niche of thief usability in pvp content very, very narrow but surprisingly didn't stop people from losing to them, with nobody reaching the conclusion that perhaps there's a skill issue and at this point you're gonna have to fight that specific group you mentioned like rabid cornered coyotes in the street if you have anything to say.

If you think fighting it is annoying, try playing it but every time you beat someone they go "nah unfair" and your skill floor gets higher.

I -know- you play warrior. You should be familiar with that situation. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Swagg.9236]

The GW2 Thief's design problem has always fundamentally been the reality that a bunch of marketing airheads wanted to add the WoW Rogue to attract that crowd to GW2; however, they couldn't just call it that because legal issues maybe or something.  Therefore, they more or less made a marketing gimmick rather than a class; and that gimmick hinges entirely on a very low-information interaction skewed in the extreme toward passivity and time-wasting rather than active engagement and gamesense judgement.  Thief isn't a class; it's a marketing tool.  That's why it's not fun to play against it, and why power creep has left it in the dust.  It has no real role; it is just a very leaky container for what is likely the most busted gimmick in the game.  "Steal" is not it's "class mechanic." Stealth is; and stealth is not fun.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Swagg.9236 said:

 Thief isn't a class; it's a marketing tool.

😭 Oh kitten me

I didn't know you felt so strongly about this