Commanders who Private Squad

[Meva.8327]

There you have your answer.

Summarising all posts above me:

1. Commanders are elitists: a minimum level of committment is required to join their squad e.g. Know your meta builds, use Discord, obey without hesitating, etc
2. This is needed because the "meta" means optimal results: I do not like it but the meta exists because anything else is relatively suboptimal
3. It is up to you to either accept those 2 conditions (if you can fulfill them), follow the tag without joining, or wait for an open tag that is rookie-friendly to show up.

That said, I definitely understand why commanders are asking for a minimum level of expertise and dedication. By joining their squad, you tacitally agree with them.

Personally I never join squads, out of respect of the tag. I know I will not be contributing what it is expected, nor I will change my build or class for the sake of the comped squad. Squads are great, simply they are not my cup of tea.

 

 

[Alaeacus.9635]

14 minutes ago, Meva.8327 said:

There you have your answer.

Summarising all posts above me:

1. Commanders are elitists: a minimum level of committment is required to join their squad e.g. Know your meta builds, use Discord, obey without hesitating, etc
2. This is needed because the "meta" means optimal results: I do not like it but the meta exists because anything else is relatively suboptimal
3. It is up to you to either accept those 2 conditions (if you can fulfill them), follow the tag without joining, or wait for an open tag that is rookie-friendly to show up.

That said, I definitely understand why commanders are asking for a minimum level of expertise and dedication. By joining their squad, you tacitally agree with them.

Personally I never join squads, out of respect of the tag. I know I will not be contributing what it is expected, nor I will change my build or class for the sake of the comped squad. Squads are great, simply they are not my cup of tea.

 

 

Except this commander was running a tag with only him in it.  He most definitely wasn't "screening" for certain builds.  He literally said in team chat he doesn't want to group with anyone, just solo tag and lead the group to targets.  If he were screening for certain players or builds, I wouldn't have even questioned it.  Not sure why people brought this ancillary point up.  

But honestly, I'm not even losing sleep over it.  I thought it was dumb and asked if this was normal.  Half the responses here think I'm being selfish or idiotic for even questioning his way of playing.  I should have known I'd get bombarded with "You don't pay his sub bro" type comments.  I've been away from mmorpgs for a long time, but same old forumers never change.  

I appreciate the repliers who attempted to rationalise this commander's behavior without lacing their words with snideness.  

Edited June 15, 2023 by Alaeacus.9635

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

Except this commander was running a tag with only him in it.

How do you know if you weren't in his squad? Someone can be roaming with friends too.

The irony here, which you wouldn't know if you are new, is that for the first 2 years of the game no one joined squads. There wasn't the current squad UI or boon priority system. You could still join them but then no parties worked. Players followed tags still.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[vares.8457]

I prefer to run in private and invisible squads. Random (PvE) players that never join voice or squad are the worst in WvW. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by vares.8457

[ArchonWing.9480]

Merely joining a squad doesn't do much unless you get put into a good party. If you're not in comms this is highly unlikely.

Some  organized groups may guide you with symbols and text, but most are using voice to lead.

If you're not on comms and on some random build, it's very likely you get placed in some crappy party with no boon share or heals and the effect is little better than not being in the squad at all.

In fact in some cases it may actually be detrimental, if you get put in a party with a bad support so you think you'll get support that's not really there.

 

The best way to play WvW is to  be as flexible as possible. For example, I will adjust my builds depending on if I have support or not. As a result, I don't really care if I join the squad or not. If they let me in. Obviously I will be more effective in a proper squad than not, but I don't need the tag to be competent at all as long as they serve to be some kind of meat shield.

This way you don't have to be dependent on other players, and see having more players as a bonus. I'm usually the one refusing squad invites because most of the time I'd rather be in a party with 1-2 friends rather than just be another interchangeable cog in a squad that gets moved around all the time.

With that in mind, most problems will fix themselves. If the tag does dumb things or is rude or whatever, then I just ignore them. I don't need to waste any time analyzing their motives or skill or whatever. Irrelevant.

Though to be fair sometimes you get a bad link and your server doesn't want to play. But nobody can do anything about that, so whatever.

tl;dr getting squad access on its own, is extremely overrated. Even more so if you have any friends.

Edited June 15, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[TheGrimm.5624]

17 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Merely joining a squad doesn't do much unless you get put into a good party. If you're not in comms this is highly unlikely.

Some  organized groups may guide you with symbols and text, but most are using voice to lead.

If you're not on comms and on some random build, it's very likely you get placed in some crappy party with no boon share or heals and the effect is little better than not being in the squad at all.

In fact in some cases it may actually be detrimental, if you get put in a party with a bad support so you think you'll get support that's not really there.

 

The best way to play WvW is to  be as flexible as possible. For example, I will adjust my builds depending on if I have support or not. As a result, I don't really care if I join the squad or not. If they let me in. Obviously I will be more effective in a proper squad than not, but I don't need the tag to be competent at all as long as they serve to be some kind of meat shield.

This way you don't have to be dependent on other players, and see having more players as a bonus. I'm usually the one refusing squad invites because most of the time I'd rather be in a party with 1-2 friends rather than just be another interchangeable cog in a squad that gets moved around all the time.

With that in mind, most problems will fix themselves. If the tag does dumb things or is rude or whatever, then I just ignore them. I don't need to waste any time analyzing their motives or skill or whatever. Irrelevant.

Though to be fair sometimes you get a bad link and your server doesn't want to play. But nobody can do anything about that, so whatever.

tl;dr getting squad access on its own, is extremely overrated. Even more so if you have any friends.

Well put. If you can aid others, be in position to do so, be that in squad or just in range to lend aid and have it be less random of who gets it. If you are trying to be part of a boonball, join a squad and then move with them. Just joining a squad doesn't mean you are magical. Stick with your group and subgroup. It's a bit twisted I say this as a roamer/havoc, if you want to aid a larger group, stick tight. I do wish we had Warhammer's collision but if you are looking to aid any group then move in close so you have better odds of support. All that said as a Havoc/Roamer, bring on the collision. Let people bounce off each and block people from running thru each other and then positioning has more value. But admit, that will not happen. 

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

Except this commander was running a tag with only him in it.  He most definitely wasn't "screening" for certain builds.  He literally said in team chat he doesn't want to group with anyone, just solo tag and lead the group to targets.  If he were screening for certain players or builds, I wouldn't have even questioned it.  Not sure why people brought this ancillary point up.  

But honestly, I'm not even losing sleep over it.  I thought it was dumb and asked if this was normal.  Half the responses here think I'm being selfish or idiotic for even questioning his way of playing.  I should have known I'd get bombarded with "You don't pay his sub bro" type comments.  I've been away from mmorpgs for a long time, but same old forumers never change.  

I appreciate the repliers who attempted to rationalise this commander's behavior without lacing their words with snideness.  

Hah, thats usually what I do. Tag up and instantly lock the squad.

Why?

Because I'm not your kitten commander.

I do it to become visible for specific purposes on the map - cap a keep, cap a tower, do some havoc at a defended camp, whatever. Of course I could say in chat lets go cap that keep, but in reality people are kitten lazy. Do that and you get like... 1. Maybe 2 people coming. 5 minutes after you needed them. Even when you know there are people on the map.

Tag up even when not commanding and people crawl out from under every rock, suddenly appear from behind every tree just like magic. You have 20+ around you going "COM?", "COM!" like those seagulls in Nemo within minutes.

No need to think any harder than that on it.

But of course in the meta zerg enviroment this is highly taboo, only 50 man zergling squads are allowed or you might as well not play.

[Polar.8634]

people who tag have no responsibility to do anything specific, they can escort dolliaks if they want. Private or not, they create content, so they already do charity activity for others.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Hah, thats usually what I do. Tag up and instantly lock the squad.

Why?

Because I'm not your kitten commander.

I do it to become visible for specific purposes on the map - cap a keep, cap a tower, do some havoc at a defended camp, whatever. Of course I could say in chat lets go cap that keep, but in reality people are kitten lazy. Do that and you get like... 1. Maybe 2 people coming. 5 minutes after you needed them. Even when you know there are people on the map.

Tag up even when not commanding and people crawl out from under every rock, suddenly appear from behind every tree just like magic. You have 20+ around you going "COM?", "COM!" like those seagulls in Nemo within minutes.

No need to think any harder than that on it.

But of course in the meta zerg enviroment this is highly taboo, only 50 man zergling squads are allowed or you might as well not play.

lol. MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE!!! 🙂

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

Except this commander was running a tag with only him in it.  He most definitely wasn't "screening" for certain builds.  He literally said in team chat he doesn't want to group with anyone, just solo tag and lead the group to targets.  If he were screening for certain players or builds, I wouldn't have even questioned it.  Not sure why people brought this ancillary point up.  

Sorry, when you said private, took that as invisible since that is the flag you need to click on to vanish and not be seen on map but yet be seen by your own group. I have seen this a few times and no, I don't know their logic. Considering boon share doesn't require a group but does have a priority all I could guess at, is they wanted to give the map a focus, same as roamer/scouts do at times, to an action but didn't want the added issues of managing a squad. I have seen that at times, especially when linked to servers that are more cloud based/flashmob orientated where people are everywhere and focus in on a spot once a callout is made. Again squads can help organize but aren't required for boons. Being in a squad and voice with groups that are sorted for boon share and can keep together are the strongest. Builds...which I mentioned as well why a tag might run private, and not a main focus of your post is a more back and fourth conversation which would lead the thread further a field or OT so will leave out.

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Well put. If you can aid others, be in position to do so, be that in squad or just in range to lend aid and have it be less random of who gets it.

Yea I think there's a misconception that a "commander" tag has to lead in some capacity when in practice it is to provide info.

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Just joining a squad doesn't mean you are magical. S

Both commanders and players need to realize they're just players sometimes.

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Because I'm not your kitten commander.

But do you use the catmander tag?

4 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

they can escort dolliaks if they want

This would actually be pretty useful.

[Dawdler.8521]

42 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

But do you use the catmander tag?

Red catmander because I run a red haired Char usually dressed in red, of course.

[Knighthonor.4061]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:36 PM, Alaeacus.9635 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy.  It's always the Commanders who are in full legendary WvW gear, they literally don't care about getting extra pip rewards.  But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs.  The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

I have Commander tag, but I don't want to tag up because A) I don't think I can command yet, and B) Two tags on map splits our forces and just confuses people.  I suppose I can just start following that other tag around with my Tag, but have an open squad myself.  I asked this Commander why they were Private tagged and he replied "We're just Roaming bro."  So?  Do we not get more rewards while roaming too?  Is it some sort of Faux Pas to tag up with an open squad while Roaming?  Can you still be considered Roaming if you have 30+ unsquaded people following you?

Forgive me, I am relatively new to WvW so maybe I just don't know the culture well enough yet.  

Update:  I've learned that the group is NOT set of Private or the Tag would be invisible.  Even though When I right-click/Join the tag, the message I get says "Group is Private", the tag is actually set to Visible while Allow Join is set to Off.  My mistake.  This whole post is only referring to Commanders who command via Team Chat with a visible tag but don't allow joiners.  I have no issue with people who use invisible tags.  

OP its just a poor game design decision by the developers thats been grandfathered from the early days when they were getting the tag and squad stuff together. The developers just never looks at it since. Just yet another poor game design decision for WvW. We have pointed this out for years now. 

[LCL.6259]

On 6/15/2023 at 4:20 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Hah, thats usually what I do. Tag up and instantly lock the squad.

Why?

Because I'm not your kitten commander.

I do it to become visible for specific purposes on the map - cap a keep, cap a tower, do some havoc at a defended camp, whatever. Of course I could say in chat lets go cap that keep, but in reality people are kitten lazy. Do that and you get like... 1. Maybe 2 people coming. 5 minutes after you needed them. Even when you know there are people on the map.

 

Maybe they don't have their warclaw, don't have a squad to join, and are still trying to participate? Do you think the random player who joins WvW is going to stick around, while everyone is zipping past them in discord?? Of course they're going to be five minutes late if they have to leg the entire map to react to a non-proactive call. They probably legged those five minutes because it's the only whiff of content they've seen yet.

Private squads are fine for what they are but public squads are completely dead, and there is zero onboarding for new players outside of discord. The average player is going to afk farm their GoB and then leave. Now you have people returning to the game and wasting slots of queue to afk farm because they gave up on the mode already. Those slots could have gone to an eleeet wvw player but instead they're being wasted, and it's not the fault of the afk. 

[Dawdler.8521]

10 minutes ago, LCL.6259 said:

Maybe they don't have their warclaw, don't have a squad to join, and are still trying to participate? Do you think the random player who joins WvW is going to stick around, while everyone is zipping past them in discord?? Of course they're going to be five minutes late if they have to leg the entire map to react to a non-proactive call. They probably legged those five minutes because it's the only whiff of content they've seen yet.

That's the reason warclaw have AoE speed... warclaw is a major "divider" in terms of strength in WvW true - not to mention elites - but you might as well say that if a new F2P player see a level 80 zip past them heading for a 10 man hardcore PvE raid or T4 Fractal run, what's the point of even playing when they cant instantly join them? It doesnt work like that, does it? If people really want to participate, they're going to have to put effort in and spend time. It's an MMO where you spend thousands of hours, not a 15h single player adventure game.

Maybe players stick around, maybe they dont. Maybe they join a guild so they can go hardcore in discord, maybe they dont. Either way it has nothing to do with world restructure.

 

17 minutes ago, LCL.6259 said:

Private squads are fine for what they are but public squads are completely dead, and there is zero onboarding for new players outside of discord. The average player is going to afk farm their GoB and then leave. Now you have people returning to the game and wasting slots of queue to afk farm because they gave up on the mode already. Those slots could have gone to an eleeet wvw player but instead they're being wasted, and it's not the fault of the afk. 

My own experience is that I've seen more non-discord pug commanders than ever last week and these few days, probably just because alliances are not implement yet hence few communities will bother to share their public discords for the beta.

Also the rather vocal complaints have been being constantly outnumbered, your argument doesnt really line up if there is no queue, lol. If it's on the other side of that well... not like they are hurting for more players then, are they?

[LCL.6259]

1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

That's the reason warclaw have AoE speed... warclaw is a major "divider" in terms of strength in WvW true - not to mention elites - but you might as well say that if a new F2P player see a level 80 zip past them heading for a 10 man hardcore PvE raid or T4 Fractal run, what's the point of even playing when they cant instantly join them? It doesnt work like that, does it? If people really want to participate, they're going to have to put effort in and spend time. It's an MMO where you spend thousands of hours, not a 15h single player adventure game.

Maybe players stick around, maybe they dont. Maybe they join a guild so they can go hardcore in discord, maybe they dont. Either way it has nothing to do with world restructure.

 

My own experience is that I've seen more non-discord pug commanders than ever last week and these few days, probably just because alliances are not implement yet hence few communities will bother to share their public discords for the beta.

Also the rather vocal complaints have been being constantly outnumbered, your argument doesnt really line up if there is no queue, lol. If it's on the other side of that well... not like they are hurting for more players then, are they?

Both Fractals and Raids have people advertising groups for new players constantly every day. I've been playing for a week and already have two guilds putting me in raid, and I didn't even actively seek them out. WvW has been the complete opposite experience. There is borderline zero communication in map outside of extremely late "come here" calls that nobody on foot would ever make it to, and people memeing about feet and nonsense. When you screw up a fractal, you will know; they will absolutely tell you that you messed up, in excruciating detail. WvW is radio silence outside of discord. 

Warclaw aoe has no impact on what I said about crossing the map without a squad.

Your restructure comment confuses me, idk how it even relates to what we're talking about, outside of speculative forecasts on future player conduct.

Pugs are a liability, while at the same time more players = instant win according to the forums. How do these two things reconcile? You can pretend like retention has no impact on your experience but that's obviously not true, based on the tone of your original post alone. It's obviously colored by a disdain for the average *clueless* WvW playerbase. You know what they say about when everyone you encounter is an kitten???

 

 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:36 PM, Alaeacus.9635 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy.  It's always the Commanders who are in full legendary WvW gear, they literally don't care about getting extra pip rewards.  But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs.  The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

I have Commander tag, but I don't want to tag up because A) I don't think I can command yet, and B) Two tags on map splits our forces and just confuses people.  I suppose I can just start following that other tag around with my Tag, but have an open squad myself.  I asked this Commander why they were Private tagged and he replied "We're just Roaming bro."  So?  Do we not get more rewards while roaming too?  Is it some sort of Faux Pas to tag up with an open squad while Roaming?  Can you still be considered Roaming if you have 30+ unsquaded people following you?

Forgive me, I am relatively new to WvW so maybe I just don't know the culture well enough yet.  

Update:  I've learned that the group is NOT set of Private or the Tag would be invisible.  Even though When I right-click/Join the tag, the message I get says "Group is Private", the tag is actually set to Visible while Allow Join is set to Off.  My mistake.  This whole post is only referring to Commanders who command via Team Chat with a visible tag but don't allow joiners.  I have no issue with people who use invisible tags.  

First of all if you are ''relatively new'' we welcome you to this crazy mode. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun. Maybe you have already answered, but I'll add my thoughts anyway. When you see a tag and can't join, it doesn't mean they're sleazy or they're excluding you regardless. It's usually because they're asking you for requirements, such as getting into voice communication. or more. They are usually passionate players. You should not be offended, and do not be afraid to write and ask in the ciat of the map. I am sure they will answer you and explain to you. It could also turn into a great gaming experience for you. It's like life out here. Those who resemble each other are caught, says the proverb. If you are kind to others, you will find yourself surrounded only by other kind players. ✌️

 

[Chaba.5410]

8 hours ago, LCL.6259 said:

Both Fractals and Raids have people advertising groups for new players constantly every day. I've been playing for a week and already have two guilds putting me in raid, and I didn't even actively seek them out. WvW has been the complete opposite experience. There is borderline zero communication in map outside of extremely late "come here" calls that nobody on foot would ever make it to, and people memeing about feet and nonsense. When you screw up a fractal, you will know; they will absolutely tell you that you messed up, in excruciating detail. WvW is radio silence outside of discord. 

Warclaw aoe has no impact on what I said about crossing the map without a squad.

Your restructure comment confuses me, idk how it even relates to what we're talking about, outside of speculative forecasts on future player conduct.

Pugs are a liability, while at the same time more players = instant win according to the forums. How do these two things reconcile? You can pretend like retention has no impact on your experience but that's obviously not true, based on the tone of your original post alone. It's obviously colored by a disdain for the average *clueless* WvW playerbase. You know what they say about when everyone you encounter is an kitten???

 

 

You wanna compare WvW with different game modes where players have far more agency over who they play with?  OK, let's go there.

In raids, the squad leader can kick players.
In fractals, parties can vote to kick players.
In WvW, you're stuck with whoever just happens to be on your team and logged in.

In WvW, you can ask them to do x, y, and z.  They don't have to do squat.
In fractals and raids though, you can ask them and there are consequences if they don't.

Like you wrote, you will absolutely know if you screw up in excruciating detail because others have that hold over you if you want to do that content.  No one has that hold over you in WvW.  You can come and go freely.

Why is anyone going to put time and effort to telling the new random player anything when they mess up?  Then people get called TOXIC for doing that in map chat (fractals and raids do have complaints of elitism and toxicity also).  Every single server community meeting in the past devolved into the "train the pugs" meme.  Guess what?  The pugs don't want to be trained.  They don't want to put any more effort in.  Anyone who gets through queue can be on a map.

So you can write about how WvW vets are somehow not on-boarding without realizing vets have always on-boarded new players. In WvW you only on-board players who actively seek you out and ask questions, not players like yourself who admit to doing raids only because a guild sought you out.  WvW vets want players who are going to put in the effort to learn.  The new players who remain silent are not putting in the effort.  If you don't know something because you're new, ASK QUESTIONS like a normal interested person.  Stop expecting everyone else to hold your hand or telling others how you think something should be.

Memery and nonsense and Maguuma's infamous toxicity in mapchat serves a purpose in separating the wheat from the chaff in a game mode where players have extremely limited agency over the quality of their teammates.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[KeyOrion.9506]

There are two types of commanders.  One's that only seek battle and are always seeking Swords or Orange Swords (OJ's) on the map.  They are always checking the map after a battle for swords or areas where combat can be found or created.  Those commanders are only interested in battle/combat or "farming" as many bags from enemy kills.  I usually find this to be boring especially if you outclass or outgun your opponents by a sizeable skill level.

The other commanders are the ones that try to take territory, or PPT.  Participating in keeping the tick up or gain score for that week.  This commander does not seek combat, but if combat is available during the Capture the Flag mechanics they may choose to participate in that combat.

Both types of commanders still usually will lead their "Core" group or those that follow and keep an organized formation while on the move or within combat.  The Core of their group is mostly those within their guild and are doing WvW as a group to do something eventful for the guild.  This can take an hour or more before they decide to move onto other Guild events, in order to keep their members interested in the game.

Of course, the commander's option's come in twos.  "Open Squad", or "Closed Squad".  Open squad, they're just looking to commit to an objective or include as many people as possible on the server to commit or complete their objectives.   Closed Squad are usually commanders who just want to keep things tight and close to the chest.  Those commanders who keep their objectives secret, do so for varying reasons.  Whether to keep their plans hidden as part of completing their objective, or they find those not within their organization as a nuisance at best, or detriment at worst, when they maybe called to engage in combat.

Over a period of 10 years of WvW, I've had discussions with commanders for their reasoning of why they do, of what they do.  Some reasonings I can agree with.  Very few I do not agree with.  But it's the commander's choice of what their objectives are, and how they will complete it whether you agree with them or not.  It's your choice whether to follow.  If you tag up, some will follow, some will not.  Majority of players have "gut" feelings of who they will follow, depending on how well you complete the objectives you set forth for yourself and others.  Failure to complete objectives, those that follow you, may take a morale hit.  Enough failures and some will refuse to follow over time.  An ability to complete or capture objectives, you may get a reputation with everyone clambering to join and follow you, even waiting in a que for hours just to follow you specifically.  There are some commanders still who have mixed results on completing or failing their objectives who have a command style that will instill confidence in those that follow, even if they fail.

Base of the problem for commanders and followers is trust.  If you trust the group you lead, you can accomplish some if not all your objectives.  If you follow, it's up to you to trust or not, if your commander is committing to decisions that will lead to victory.  

Now at the final end, one thing that can literally tear up a group is one word.  "Fun."  Fun is subjective.  A commander's fun, might not be the same as all the people that follow's idea of fun.  You can literally bore your group with what you believe is fun, or your commitment to "I don't care as long as it's fun", can literally destroy the morale of those that follow.  You can win 50% of the time, and still have fun.  But you lose 95% of the time, that's not fun.  Smashing your head into a wall with no change to the outcome, is not fun.  This is where I see too many failures in command style.  Sometimes it's best to walk away and find a new objective in order to keep the group cohesiveness intact.  You may not care, but that attitude does not include every member of your team, some of whom do care.  Now, if you cannot come to this realization that's a personality problem, not a command problem.

As the song says, know when to hold them.  Know when to fold them.  Know when to walk away.  Know when to run.  

Edited June 19, 2023 by KeyOrion.9506

[Xenesis.6389]

Who cares.

Mind your own biziness.

Do your own biziness.

People can tag or not tag for their own reasons.

People can run their groups however they want.

If you don't like something, do it yourself.

WvW gives everyone the freedom to play however they want (yes even those groups that want to sit in lords farming for 30mins 😏).

If you really need someone to yell at you, then join whatever server Monkey is on these days.

🤷‍♂️🍦

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:36 AM, Alaeacus.9635 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy. 

?? Huh

It's always the Commanders who are in full legendary WvW gear,

I don't have any legendary gear. Already have all ascended on my toons..  Look like you are talking out of your kitten.

they literally don't care about getting extra pip rewards.  But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs. 

That is WvW. 

The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

I have Commander tag, but I don't want to tag up because A) I don't think I can command yet, and B) Two tags on map splits our forces and just confuses people.  I suppose I can just start following that other tag around with my Tag, but have an open squad myself.  I asked this Commander why they were Private tagged and he replied "We're just Roaming bro."  So?  Do we not get more rewards while roaming too?  Is it some sort of Faux Pas to tag up with an open squad while Roaming?  Can you still be considered Roaming if you have 30+ unsquaded people following you?

Forgive me, I am relatively new to WvW so maybe I just don't know the culture well enough yet.  

Update:  I've learned that the group is NOT set of Private or the Tag would be invisible.  Even though When I right-click/Join the tag, the message I get says "Group is Private", the tag is actually set to Visible while Allow Join is set to Off.  My mistake.  This whole post is only referring to Commanders who command via Team Chat with a visible tag but don't allow joiners.  I have no issue with people who use invisible tags.  

Falling asleep listening to the whining and wondering where my cheese is.

[LCL.6259]

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You wanna compare WvW with different game modes where players have far more agency over who they play with?  OK, let's go there.

In raids, the squad leader can kick players.
In fractals, parties can vote to kick players.
In WvW, you're stuck with whoever just happens to be on your team and logged in.

In WvW, you can ask them to do x, y, and z.  They don't have to do squat.
In fractals and raids though, you can ask them and there are consequences if they don't.

Like you wrote, you will absolutely know if you screw up in excruciating detail because others have that hold over you if you want to do that content.  No one has that hold over you in WvW.  You can come and go freely.

Why is anyone going to put time and effort to telling the new random player anything when they mess up?  Then people get called TOXIC for doing that in map chat (fractals and raids do have complaints of elitism and toxicity also).  Every single server community meeting in the past devolved into the "train the pugs" meme.  Guess what?  The pugs don't want to be trained.  They don't want to put any more effort in.  Anyone who gets through queue can be on a map.

So you can write about how WvW vets are somehow not on-boarding without realizing vets have always on-boarded new players. In WvW you only on-board players who actively seek you out and ask questions, not players like yourself who admit to doing raids only because a guild sought you out.  WvW vets want players who are going to put in the effort to learn.  The new players who remain silent are not putting in the effort.  If you don't know something because you're new, ASK QUESTIONS like a normal interested person.  Stop expecting everyone else to hold your hand or telling others how you think something should be.

Memery and nonsense and Maguuma's infamous toxicity in mapchat serves a purpose in separating the wheat from the chaff in a game mode where players have extremely limited agency over the quality of their teammates.

I never blamed it on the community, you are misinterpreting what I said. The fault is with the game itself but you have a self perpetuating cycle that the community seems to pretend they play no part in. I replied directly to the confusion over players not showing up on time, and gave a valid reason for it. 

When I ask questions in fractal I get answers. When I ask basic questions in team chat I get memed on and kitten. Why would anyone continue to ask questions, rather than just trying to fall in with a group? "Separating the wheat from the chaff" is exactly what I'm talking about. There seems to be a direct dissonance between this philosophy and the actual results it produces, as opposed to the perceived results. You assume I make no effort to understand the game, while you know absolutely nothing about me or the way I play. You tell me to ask questions while openly knowing that map chat is full of kittens. Not even denying that it's blatant gatekeeping, you state it as an intended purpose. That is a problem.

If, "don't be an kitten to people asking questions" feels like me micromanaging too hard, then maybe there is a deeper issue going on. These results are simply cause and effect at play. You can go ahead and point out the part where I demanded to be trained by the "ten year vets of WvW". Might have to twist the words a little bit. I didn't ask the community to point out everyone's little mistakes, it's just a difference that I'm calling attention to. A difference you were obviously already aware of, (convenient for me I guess?). I don't know why you assume this air of me demanding to be handed everything on a plate, when my only point is that being an kitten to new players doesn't make them want to learn anything. I don't think that is a very controversial idea.

These differences are inherent, and baked into the modes; nobody needs to explain that to me. I was giving the perspective of what somebody new to the mode has to deal with, only because the first poster seemed clearly confused on why certain people were behaving in a certain way. There are friendly people in the mode, just like in the rest of the game but they are drowned out by massive clownery and jaded attitudes. Reading through these posts its not hard to understand why people are so snarky and bitter but I don't think its really doing any favors for anyone. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by LCL.6259

[Junkpile.7439]

Always funny follow private tag when they try to stealth. 👺

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

If you really need someone to yell at you, then join whatever server Monkey is on these days.

You know, that player is enough of a cult of personality in their own right I now think of them not just as Monkey, but the Monkey King since re-links have given more people time to experience the experience of that.

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, LCL.6259 said:

Maybe they don't have their warclaw, don't have a squad to join, and are still trying to participate? Do you think the random player who joins WvW is going to stick around, while everyone is zipping past them in discord?? Of course they're going to be five minutes late if they have to leg the entire map to react to a non-proactive call. They probably legged those five minutes because it's the only whiff of content they've seen yet.

Private squads are fine for what they are but public squads are completely dead, and there is zero onboarding for new players outside of discord. The average player is going to afk farm their GoB and then leave. Now you have people returning to the game and wasting slots of queue to afk farm because they gave up on the mode already. Those slots could have gone to an eleeet wvw player but instead they're being wasted, and it's not the fault of the afk. 

tl;dr version: Public tags may or may not offer feedback, again for a lot of reasons. WvW is about figuring it out, there a lot of things to do in a lot of different ways that will vary if you run with a tag or without and/or the size of the group you have. During this beta saw some really impressive flashmobs that actually did better without a tag then they did when they got one. If looking for feedback and idea, it's best to connect with a guild or find people that will provide feedback even if it's a why are we doing this versus that kind of question. Granted you will also find some of us nutters that have weird rules like rule #1 don't use the front exit, rule#2, always attack the side that holds SMC.

The Warclaw, or clam in some threads, is an open issue that people can and should still request. We do need a Warclaw rental service in WvW or make it part of base on entry that is available. Having recently helped a new guildmate get one, after they did their first comment was, why is this thing so slow? Which we had joked them about it would seem to be once they got it.

The Warclaw does have an ability to share their run-speed with nearby players so the points made about its AoE was that Warclaw Blessing (may need to verify the buff name) allows players on foot to keep up. So while on foot if new, getting some battle buddies can help get you around the map to the fights.

To be fair to the OP their use of private was not the private flag that is an option in the squad UI that makes a tag vanish from the map and makes it only visible by people in the group. So will be skipping that bit.

As far as not having public tags, since we are in a beta test during this post your mileage will vary if its due to the test or the fact that some tags who would normally public tag are not doing so since it's a two week beta. New players joining just in the last two weeks, I would recommend they wait and see what their server normally looks like.

You are right, WvW offers very little in what do I do here kind of guidance. Even the NPCs that advertise for it disdain about people entering it, which has its own irony. Best thing if new is try and connect with people and find people you can ask questions to. Sure you might get comments in chat but you will also find people that will be happy to help. And it doesn't need to be a zerg, there are havocs and even roamers that will hunt with people. 

Not that you were doing so, but when people pop on the forums and ask what the what and ask for info on WvW, one thing I would post is the following that may make more sense after some initial confusion: 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World

Still run into a lot of people in map chat that ask what did that mean and I still recommend the wiki page. As always thank you you whacky wiki peeps for all the time you spend, +1 from me. 

Again a little OT but to cover for others that might have similar questions following the thread might lend a hand.

Either way, Forum Wars are always open and welcome to all, but when you are in WvW, good hunting to you! May your bags be full!