Commanders who Private Squad

[Alaeacus.9635]

This may be an unpopular opinion but people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy.  It's always the Commanders who are in full legendary WvW gear, they literally don't care about getting extra pip rewards.  But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs.  The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

I have Commander tag, but I don't want to tag up because A) I don't think I can command yet, and B) Two tags on map splits our forces and just confuses people.  I suppose I can just start following that other tag around with my Tag, but have an open squad myself.  I asked this Commander why they were Private tagged and he replied "We're just Roaming bro."  So?  Do we not get more rewards while roaming too?  Is it some sort of Faux Pas to tag up with an open squad while Roaming?  Can you still be considered Roaming if you have 30+ unsquaded people following you?

Forgive me, I am relatively new to WvW so maybe I just don't know the culture well enough yet.  

Update:  I've learned that the group is NOT set of Private or the Tag would be invisible.  Even though When I right-click/Join the tag, the message I get says "Group is Private", the tag is actually set to Visible while Allow Join is set to Off.  My mistake.  This whole post is only referring to Commanders who command via Team Chat with a visible tag but don't allow joiners.  I have no issue with people who use invisible tags.  

Edited June 13, 2023 by Alaeacus.9635

[ManiacMika.9851]

This website takes all the parameters that influences the pips gain:
https://gw2.limitlessfx.com/wvw/pips.php
- Commitment (wooden chest previous week)
- Commander (of a squad of 5)
- Public Commander (of a squad of 10)
- World Placement (in the current skirmish)
- Personal Rank (wxp)

Getting inside a squad without being the commander will not influence how many pips you earn.
By following, you'll surely get some wxp from killing a player (or supporting with boons and heals an ally that killed a player) or capturing objectives, and those will keep your participation at Tier 6 for 10 minutes and more.

What you'll gain from being in a squad, is the boon priority, but if team composition is not optimized for it, then distance priority is good enough, which works if there's no squad.
Maybe the commander wanted to have a squad for his guild/friends and check their own stats without the logs being polluted by randoms.

[Zyreva.1078]

Private tags allow players to organise without having everyone on the map flock to them. Nothing scummy about that. Commanders don't owe anyone an open "everyone welcome" squad and if they prefer to play with friends, guildies, people on voice comms, limited numbers or whatever other grp of players they chose to invite that should be accepted. Just like it is your and everyone else's own decision to tag up or not and what kind of squad they want to form, if they do tag up. It's also fine to have multiple tags - visible or not - on the same map.

Private squads do not lower your own rewards - aside from this WvW isn't really supposed to be about reward farming anyway.

I don't consider 30+ players running together as "roaming" and visible tags don't make much sense for roaming squads for that reason. However sometimes players start following another grp regardless, not the (private) commander's fault.

Overall i don't really get what your problem is.

[Chaba.5410]

14 minutes ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy.

What?  Private sets the tag to invisible.  They aren't doing that to get a zerg to follow them.

[Alaeacus.9635]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What?  Private sets the tag to invisible.  They aren't doing that to get a zerg to follow them.

Everyone on map can see the tag and are following.  When we right click to join, it says "Group is Private".  The tag is not invisible.  He's talking to the whole zerg in Team chat calling out targets, so he's at least acting like a map commander.  I don't think any commander owes it to us to have an Open squad.  I just think it's dumb.  

Edited June 13, 2023 by Alaeacus.9635

[Chaba.5410]

1 minute ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

Everyone on map can see the tag and are following.  When we right click to join, it says "Group is Private".  The tag is not invisible.  

So it's a Public tag with "Allow uninvited players to join" set to No.  Be clear.  Maybe they require you to be on voice comms with them to join.  Maybe they don't want you to join and only have the tag visible for the benefit of another tag on the map.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad#/media/File:Squad_panel.jpg

Edited June 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Alaeacus.9635]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

So it's a Public tag with "Allow uninvited players to join" set to No.  Be clear.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad#/media/File:Squad_panel.jpg

If the message I get says the group is "Private", I'm going to say the group is Private.  Blame Anet for the confusion, not me.  

[oscuro.9720]

Just to be sure I’m understanding this correctly; you are complaining that someone playing the game mode for enjoyment is scummy because they are slowing down how quickly you can grind out rewards?

[Chaba.5410]

1 minute ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

If the message I get says the group is "Private", I'm going to say the group is Private.  Blame Anet for the confusion, not me.  

You can still be clear regardless of whether Anet causes the confusion or not.  That's why I asked.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Alaeacus.9635]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

You can still be clear regardless of whether Anet causes the confusion or not.

Again, I'm new and don't know the difference.  Is this semantics game necessary?  

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

tags run private because other guilds like to insult them in map/team chat about every decision since pug commanders aren't welcome anymore, whether they have a guild behind them or not. with a private tag you can turn map chat off and just pay attention to squad without players you don't know or trust joining and causing trouble, while still giving pugs something to follow.

Edited June 13, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Chaba.5410]

4 minutes ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

Again, I'm new and don't know the difference.  Is this semantics game necessary?  

It's just a question for clarification.  You write "Private" and that means something else to others.  Now you know the difference and aren't new to it anymore.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 minutes ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy.  It's always the Commanders who are in full legendary WvW gear, they literally don't care about getting extra pip rewards.  But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs.  The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

I have Commander tag, but I don't want to tag up because A) I don't think I can command yet, and B) Two tags on map splits our forces and just confuses people.  I suppose I can just start following that other tag around with my Tag, but have an open squad myself.  I asked this Commander why they were Private tagged and he replied "We're just Roaming bro."  So?  Do we not get more rewards while roaming too?  Is it some sort of Faux Pas to tag up with an open squad while Roaming?  Can you still be considered Roaming if you have 30+ unsquaded people following you?

Forgive me, I am relatively new to WvW so maybe I just don't know the culture well enough yet.  

People quite often want tags but then are quite quick to call out the tag for various reasons. Not saying right or wrong. Private tags give comms additional control criteria over who they take in or out of squad. Now I may not agree with that, but that is up to the individual tags to have their own reasons. Some I have seen are ones that are looking for group builds, some they want people in voice as a requirement, some are actually setting up groups to hopefully, if they move together correctly, could benefit by boon priorities ManiacMika pointed out. Some have fears of spies and some are really looking to run and not pull the map zerg. Should be noted a lot of havocs also run hidden for similar reasons as they don't want to draw people away from the public tag but still want a way to keep their group moving together.

Roaming as an action compared to the term of roamer meaning solo player. Yes a large group could be out roaming, translation they are not focusing on a single activity like capturing objectives but may be also just running around looking for fights and in that case they may not be tagged up since they don't to pull in more from your side since they aren't looking to capture things. 

Can private tags be an issue, yes. Would I want to go back to where we had 10 different tags showing up on map? Though it's funny when the entire map does it for fun some days, it is quite confusing as it was also before we had the private option. So would prefer tags have options for all the various reasons.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

19 minutes ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

Again, I'm new and don't know the difference.  Is this semantics game necessary?  

You're new and the first thing you do is complain and shift blame. Is this attitude necessary? See what I did there?

What you call semantics is a huge difference in regards to what a tag might have set as a goal. The most common reason to not go invisible as a tag is so other COMMANDERS know where you are. The fact that random players start deciding to follow is not the tags concern. This isn't PvE.

Try leading as a tag and see what people start expecting of you, not unlike how you are fast to set your own expectations of how OTHERS should suite your personal gaming needs. Private tags most often have reasons, some of which include (but are not limited to):

1. most often wanting voice participation for better organization (if it's a closed public tag)

2. want specific classes, most often meta classes which synergize well

3. might be a guild group running internally but are leaving their tag up so other commanders can see them

Welcome to WvW where most players are fast to tell you how they want to be in complete control of their gaming experience, play according to their terms and time frame yet expect their personal commander to create content for them. It aint work that way.

[Custodio.6134]

Teapot actually made quite a good statement, that also applies here. The core of it was: 

"everyone is allowed, and in fact, must have expectations in order to form a functioning group". This was mainly targeted a PvE and LFG, but absolutely applies to WvW as well. 

Commanders have expectations, and not every commander expects the same. But usually in a zerg-scenario, you are expected to match one or multiple of the following things: 

• bringing a viable build according to group-size, and especially one that the squad is currently lacking
• staying on-tag unless told otherwise
• joining voice-chat 

If a commander doesn´t specify the things they expect from their squad-members, everyone will expect a different thing from both, the commander and the squad. For example: people expect the commander take a fight, but the commander only wants to do PPT. Or, a worse case: the squad expects the commander to fight, the commander also wants to fight, but the squad he/she is commanding is not suitable (e.g. due to missing professions like supports, boonrip or DPS) for fighing. 

So, in order to achieve a squad, that meets the expectations of at least the majority of players, they set their "rules" beforehand, and those can be basically anything, but are usually the points i mentioned above. 

[babana.7521]

Question: "Why private tag?"
Answer: d "We're just Roaming bro." 

Question: Invite please?  << this should have been the next step. 

[Balsa.3951]

i think another thing is the issue. saw a few of those private squads. they are not successful. numbers matter in wvw and having less people most means less points.

so in a way they weaken the overall map strength. 

solution give guilds their own servers or maps for small scale pvp.

 

but then again ppl can play how ever they like

Edited June 14, 2023 by Balsa.3951

[Heibi.4251]

We run a open/private tag. All we require is for people to get in comms so they can follow directions during fights. Those who join are only required to listen so they don't need a mic. We have those who refuse to join comms so they don't get an invite. They can follow along if they want.  Though we have at times invited a scout without having them in comms and gave them participation if we aren't full.

About the only time we run an invisible tag is when there are known tag watchers sitting at spawn. You can blame unrestricted control of free accounts for commanders running closed invisible tags for the most part. There are some commanders who just want to run a squad of a finite size to get fights or to challenge bigger groups.

[cyberzombie.7348]

My only issue is that they often don't announce that they're going private. By all means though feel free to make one and I understand the reasonings behind it. But If I'm trying to defend an objective against a zerg its important to know whether we have the people to properly defend it, and not wondering why there's only several people responding to my tag until the last minute of a breach.

Same thing if I'm trying to cap an objective, so that way I can smartly plan out which and where to hit.

[Custodio.6134]

3 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

i think another thing is the issue. saw a few of those private squads. they are not successful. numbers matter in wvw and having less people most means less points.

so in a way they weaken the overall map strength. 

solution give guilds their own servers or maps for small scale pvp.

 

but then again ppl can play how ever they like

i think OP does not refer to guild-only squads, or squads of similar size (~25). And while yes: numbers matter, there is a suprisingly high impact that "quality" of the squad (or "average player-skill" of the squad) has here. 

A highly skilled, organized and optimized squad with a capable commander of the size of 20-25 skilled players, can EASILY obliterate a full 50-player public-squad . I´ve seen this a lot of times, and have done this with my own guild-mates myself already. 

Also: not every guild is a "GvG"-guild, in fact: guilds that only want to face other guilds are quite a minority here. Most guilds are doing a mix of everything, meaning: attacking objectives away from the squad (especially if there´s a bigger public also present) to force the enemy to split up their defensive forces, basically leading to one of the 2 objectives getting flipped; fighting alongside the zerg, especially if they can even out the numbers this way; and of course, fighting other guilds in a "1v1". (However: the latter scrims are, in the case of the "average" raiding guild, basically an exception, and don´t happen that often. They also usually don´t last that long, on average i would guess, somewhere between 5-10 fights after they part ways again). 

So giving guilds their own maps actually discourages guilds from playing at all. It would turn into full on GvG without any objectives involved. Which also massively weakens the rest of the squads, since guilds are already (and always have been) the backbone of every squad and community (since the majority of public commanders come from guilds, many guilds are organizing events for the server-communities, and also host training-events for the servers). 

[TheIceman.1039]

19 hours ago, Alaeacus.9635 said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but people who use the Commander Tag in WvW in order to get a zerg to follow them and capture keeps, but the Squad on Private, are kind of scummy.  It's always the Commanders who are in full legendary WvW gear, they literally don't care about getting extra pip rewards.  But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs.  The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

I have Commander tag, but I don't want to tag up because A) I don't think I can command yet, and B) Two tags on map splits our forces and just confuses people.  I suppose I can just start following that other tag around with my Tag, but have an open squad myself.  I asked this Commander why they were Private tagged and he replied "We're just Roaming bro."  So?  Do we not get more rewards while roaming too?  Is it some sort of Faux Pas to tag up with an open squad while Roaming?  Can you still be considered Roaming if you have 30+ unsquaded people following you?

 

Indeed, some commanders use a private closed tag, but at the same time it is visible to everyone. In other words, they want to control themselves who to invite to join, but at the same time they rely on the help of map pug cloud.. Since the game has created an opportunity for them to behave in this way, you have two choices. You either follow this closed squad but visible commander. Or you ignore him.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

i think another thing is the issue. saw a few of those private squads. they are not successful. numbers matter in wvw and having less people most means less points.

so in a way they weaken the overall map strength. 

solution give guilds their own servers or maps for small scale pvp.

 

but then again ppl can play how ever they like

For a map to be truly successful you want a main zerg, some havocs and some roamers/scouts. A side that has all their assets in one large zerg will be back capped by havocs and roamers. If winning mattered we would be back to the day when you would want 2-3 main warbands (20ish people)  that move in tandem and combine when needed but hit multiple targets all at one time with havocs supporting and roamers taking out other roamer scouts. Haven't seen that organization in a long time though, so best we see now is 1 main zerg and the support groups to help provide info or to decoy other zergs out of position and roamers to knockout the other sides supply, and to weaken objectives that are up to be hit or take them outright if they can. 

Plus if you put all your resources in one zerg it's much easier to pin snipe or focus the tag to the point that it impacts the tag's action. Example, pulling their tag off a wall and watch the rest of the zerg jump off with it thinking the tag meant to jump out.

 

[Riba.3271]

People just want to play the game.

Of course ideally you would run open squads, but lot of people are just babies at the battle field. You have to change their diapers and hold their hand so they don't get lost. It just ain't most commanders idea of fun.

Should squads promote proper builds and how to join squads or discord more? Yes. Add proper combat settings, movement and class roles, and it just becomes impossible to teach in couple of hours or even in a week.

Do I still run baby pampering squad? Yes, for whatever my current server is. Will I run it when alliances are out? Nah, those randoms ain't my server mates or sticking around and I don't have time for them to naturally realise the existance or importance of voice comms and proper builds. I just want to play the game.

Should there be more voiceless disorganised commanders for voiceless disorganised people? Yes. But balance doesn't allow it. You don't go swimming with a crocodile without a harpoon gun. Clueless commanders are the worst, so I don't understand why you think you deserve to stay clueless yourself.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Riba.3271

[blackgamma.1809]

Well Well mah dood. imma about to teach you the harsh reality of Private tags.

the main reason why tags run private. is because YOU, thats right, YOU or whatever pug that finds the private group. becomes a giant liability to the tag, a liability so bad, that it takes only 1-3 pugs, to complete kill its own friendly squad. just by YOU existing near them

and its not your fault for wanting to run with the private tag, its hella lame that your not invited into the private squad. its just the nature of the game mode. let me explain
private tag has a lots of 5 in each party, that party supports each other. when that party preforms well, and that pug doesn't. that pug will go into down state. enough random pugs that go into down state and becomes defeated become a giant issue for the private tag your trying  you being defeated creates huge momentum swings for the enemy zerg to rally back into the fight, therefore making that party waste its damage and time trying to kill the downs.

they're only way to combat the mechanic of enemies rallying off downs for them to push back onto the well organized zerg. to make sure pugs never find or follow them, therefore removing the problem of babysitting pugs that cripple and punish that tag doing its job.

But yeah again, not your fault, it sucks not being welcomed into the private tag. but thats just the nature of the game mode

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:36 AM, Alaeacus.9635 said:

But they still want to use a force of people to take down keeps and other zergs.  The rest of us in WvW trying to get as many rewards and participation as possible are now effectively earning less because you just want the Zerg without the squad.  

And what is the difference between you and them?

Your goal is to get as much rewards and participation as possible but don't want to take the initiative to lead, so you too want the zerg without the squad.

You're describing people as "scummy" because they won't alter their playstyle in order to maximize your own gain. It makes zero sense if you ask me. Your own rewards are your own responsibility, not anyone else's.

Edited June 15, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480