Boonball meta is bad

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

A easy way fix would be Anet change skills that dont boon strip to focus con certain boons like we had on gw1 skill that targeted shouts, chants, boons, and others.

An interesting idea.  Wouldn't that introduce further balancing complexity though?

[zengara.8301]

I am personally happy for PoF meta xD

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

An interesting idea.  Wouldn't that introduce further balancing complexity though?

Depends which boons get targeted and which skills are doing it and how they work on the targets, every class has perma boon spam which makes the game in need of pocket zones where boons are being stressed out, something that does not exist in wvw for quite many years, alacrity and quickness are very strong boons that allows the spam and those boons should be the ones targeted although i believe not all classes and specs should do it being spellbreaker and chronos the classes where i would recommend this role, and maybe necromancer to some extent in a well that could nullify alacrity.

Also in adition would  recomend to make skill types have more impact in game since skill type kinda lost it's identity in GW2 (like guilds that became chatrooms yet anet branded them guilds), for example guardian shouts need to loose the boons or just give one or another boon, or even even better remove all boons from all shouts in game to direct affect and result, while make skills that nullify casting of shouts  this way affects would not stack nor overlap each other.

Game needs more than everything boons.

PS: a A Mantra looks in the mirror what does it see? a shout with ammunition!

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Chaba.5410]

32 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Depends which boons get targeted and which skills are doing it and how they work on the targets, every class has perma boon spam which makes the game in need of pocket zones where boons are being stressed out, something that does not exist in wvw for quite many years, alacrity and quickness are very strong boons that allows the spam and those boons should be the ones targeted although i believe not all classes and specs should do it being spellbreaker and chronos the classes where i would recommend this role, and maybe necromancer to some extent in a well that could nullify alacrity.

Also in adition would  recomend to make skill types have more impact in game since skill type kinda lost it's identity in GW2 (like guilds that became chatrooms yet anet branded them guilds), for example guardian shouts need to loose the boons or just give one or another boon, or even even better remove all boons from all shouts in game to direct affect and result, while make skills that nullify casting of shouts  this way affects would not stack nor overlap each other.

Game needs more than everything boons.

PS: a A Mantra looks in the mirror what does it see? a shout with ammunition!

 

Your answer didn't really address my question.  Your suggestion sounds like an increased complexity of the combat system where instead of just boon/anti-boon, now the game has to consider which skill types provided/remove those boons.

How do you see your suggestion as an "easy fix" for balancing?  To me it looks like just another thing needing to be addressed for balance that doesn't necessarily lead to the outcome of better boon/anti-boon balance.

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Your answer didn't really address my question.  Your suggestion sounds like an increased complexity of the combat system where instead of just boon/anti-boon, now the game has to consider which skill types provided/remove those boons.

How do you see your suggestion as an "easy fix" for balancing?  To me it looks like just another thing needing to be addressed for balance that doesn't necessarily lead to the outcome of better boon/anti-boon balance.

I interpreted the question with other meanings never mind me... 1 year of 0 english practicioned, 3 years stuck at home working remotely im officially nuts.

Still less boons do address is a good thing :} (less boons more coffee)

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

An interesting idea.  Wouldn't that introduce further balancing complexity though?

I dont think so (at least i dont see it that way),  all anti boon will rip boons by the whatever order they are in the target wich imo is the same as RNG   removal for the caster, and some boons are far to strong when permanent more than the other and those m8 be all covered by all the boon spam not because its a strategie controled by the player, which makes anti-boon mechanics weaker and far less efficient compared with the boons being produced which is a problem but it works both ways if anti boon becomes stronger is also a problem.

And at the contrary of the every utils that serves to the stack of boons this targeted anti-boon would came from controlled gameplay on  very specific classes and skills, it would be something that should not be giving to all classes which was exactly the problem with boons where every class has every boon that stacks with each other.

let me ask u something, isnt CC already an extra layer of balance towards stability boon since it can also be affected by anti-boon and cc itself and where all other boons are only afected by the anti-boon?

Adding another layer towards problematic boons would be far less intrusive than how Anet made CC to work.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[XenesisII.1540]

Boons need an apocalypse like damage and cc had back in feb 2020, but we all know that ain't happening, the organized groups don't want you to mess with their security blanket. There's just no point discussing boon spam and counters anymore, it's too far gone.

Sit back with some 🍿 and watch the fight over quickness/alacrity spam in the profession forums.

[lovemghool.7613]

No one likes invincible 50 man boonball, so what does Anet do? Gut boon removal and also boon corrupts. As if AoE cleanse and AoE condition to boon conversions were not already flying left and right in force right? We didnt need a buff to boonballs and cleanses.  Clueless Anet balance team manages to make the game even more unenjoyable whenever possible yet again.

[Gehenna.3625]

9 minutes ago, lovemghool.7613 said:

No one likes invincible 50 man boonball, so what does Anet do? Gut boon removal and also boon corrupts. As if AoE cleanse and AoE condition to boon conversions were not already flying left and right in force right? We didnt need a buff to boonballs and cleanses.  Clueless Anet balance team manages to make the game even more unenjoyable whenever possible yet again.

I think too many people focus on that number 50. A boonball of 20 can rip through an unorganized group of 40 quite easily.

The main problem is that in WvW you have organized and not so organized groups to the point of random pugs and the difference between organized and non-organized is SO huge that you don't even need a boonball of 50 to dominate. If the max on a side is 50 players you can rip them apart with a boonball of 20-25 if the other side is not as organized as you are.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Gehenna.3625

[TheGrimm.5624]

We do need to give the changes some time to see if they do what they thought which was to encourage more melee in each others' faces to play out. Their thought being to encourage a melee to dive in is they need more boons. While on melee toons its not the lack of boons that discourage diving in its all the red rings and then all the boons on the other side waiting to receive the melee player. That alone doesn't even address one side being packed with support players versus the other side being all attacked focused nor of differing sized groups. More boons just imbalance those equations. 

Mind you this is just a 2 minute idea while typing so will have reconsider this idea myself thinking back to the Hammer meta, so might hit myself with a forehead slap later tonight during reset. If that doesn't move the ranged versus melee range, consider changing the caps. Run some test weeks, reduce the number of boon targets to 2-3, reduce ranged AoE targets down to 2-3, increase melee targets to 5. Leave the heal targets alone. See how that impacts play. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
missing line

[blp.3489]

Only half joking: the simplest solution might be to give everyone some of the boons, maybe might, quickness, alacrity.  Once everyone has them they become irrelevant and can quietly be deleted from the skills and builds.  The game will be sped up which should satisfy the elite skill people as us noobies would be unable to mash the buttons fast enough to keep up and can quietly play our assigned role as components in pug zergs thus providing the fodder that small groups of skilled players take such pleasure and satisfaction and pride in mowing down.

Really we aren't too far from there so why not take the last logical step?  Maybe you could test it out in WvW, it should be pretty simple to just give everyone permanent boons when they enter the WvW maps.  Maybe make it a test week.  Hopefully the support players that provide these boons can find some other role for themselves.

Edited June 30, 2023 by blp.3489
Typo

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Still less boons do address is a good thing :}

So why not just this, shaving down the ease of boon access/durations/stacks/etc., instead of adding another layer of effects and countereffects?

Edited July 1, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

let me ask u something, isnt CC already an extra layer of balance towards stability boon since it can also be affected by anti-boon and cc itself and where all other boons are only afected by the anti-boon?

You mean hard cc?  Because so-called soft cc is a condition and stability does nothing for it.

We talk about boon/anti-boon yet really it's a system of effects and countereffects.  It's perhaps a better way to describe the complexity I'm referring to.  Throwing in skill type consideration means you're designing an effect based on skill types and there has to be counters for those effects.

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:38 PM, Crazy.6029 said:

Here is the thing, where is the counter play and balance to this boonball abomination? Are we supposed to bring 25 necros and another 15 warrs and maybe 10 mesmers for a total of 50 in squad just to boon corrupt or rip this mess? Of course not, or you would see it as a counter right now. The only counter is boon ball up to the max with higher numbers. That is it, that is all, just stack boons and then run back and forth over each other in 2-3 giant groups until someone stands in red circles for too long and dies. That is not counter play, that is not balance. The boons should be a CD basis not permanent so that aegis and vigor and regen and res and everything else is always up, so no worries about death, just make sure boon is up, don't even dodge, you won't need it.

The boons need to be able to be stripped or corrupted, right now there is WAY too much output of boons compared to boon removal. Give us please more removal so once that happens the big boon ball has to use their brains and move, dodge, pop damage mitigators or escapes, you know, whatever they want but at least it is back and forth, as in COUNTERPLAY, But that WON'T happen with this perma boon ball meta. What the hec is everyone thinking? Is it just let's all pretend that we are awesome and just PVE boss rush everything? 

Please Anet look at your balance approach, this is just insulting to anyone that actually enjoys COUNTERPLAY, not mindless zerg carry me BOONSBALL meta with no counterplay but more of the same.

 

That's just it, Anet doesn't want you fighting the boonball.  They want you in your own boonball doing the same thing the enemy one is doing...PvE on WvW maps.  You're supposed to fight doors, and NPC's and map hop if an enemy accidentally rotates on to your map.  You are free to kill randoms and pugs with your full squad, but your not supposed to be defending.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Ubi.4136

[Aeolus.3615]

9 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You mean hard cc?  Because so-called soft cc is a condition and stability does nothing for it.

We talk about boon/anti-boon yet really it's a system of effects and countereffects.  It's perhaps a better way to describe the complexity I'm referring to.  Throwing in skill type consideration means you're designing an effect based on skill types and there has to be counters for those effects.

Yes hard CC., and what i talked about designing an effect based on skill types  it is just another option that requires more work only, it is not complex just requires more work, i think i failed to separate those 2 statements  and when u read it felt like it was all the same and yes it would require counters to those effects like we had in gw1, but would sanitize the gameplay, if u remember in gw1 we have skill that even disalow gain of adrenaline classes towards warrior and paragon :) adrenaline here in gw2 is free it is basicly just a delay and it is quite easy to gain it lol... it is what i call a fake mechanic.

For the simpler solution and fast response with less work and keep the current spam i still keep with adding targeted boon rip to few skills and just that, Anet needs to add more boon ripping and IF Anet thinks the late boon rip system was to much, reason they nerfed quite some at the point it has becomes kind of unbalanced towards boon rip in favour of the boon spam, the best way to balance those counter effects is focus on the most problematic boons at the minimum focusing on quickness and alacrity towards making skills boon rip targeted boon.

This would still be based on  a system of effects and countereffects, just that some skills will target a boon rather the 1st boon whatever boon.

 

But one thing is for sure Anet is since 2012 to 2023 trying  balance the mess of boon spam and yet they never figured out a good balance (imo they have made the combat quite disgusting), imo this tells that the current design of everything is a boon is completely awful while the dev's keep enforcing something that has ruined the game.

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[blp.3489]

Is casting what the boon would be if it were corrupted a significant source of counterplay?  It has the disadvantage of possibly getting cleansed or having shorter duration than the boon so it isn't nearly as useful as a strip or a corrupt and I'm not sure how much of it is as readily available as boons are.

[Dadnir.5038]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:59 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

A necro wells that nullify Alacrity usage.

You realize that Chill exist and that one of Chill's 2 effects is to increase CDs. So from a certain point of view, Well of darkness already do what you're suggesting (Elementalist's frozen ground, weaver's monsoon, ranger's frost trap, Engineer's endothermic shell and chronomancer's well of senility also does the trick). Boon removal and condition cleanse complete the "balance" of these effects.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You realize that Chill exist and that one of Chill's 2 effects is to increase CDs. So from a certain point of view, Well of darkness already do what you're suggesting (Elementalist's frozen ground, weaver's monsoon, ranger's frost trap, Engineer's endothermic shell and chronomancer's well of senility also does the trick). Boon removal and condition cleanse complete the "balance" of these effects.

But whereas the game is moving in the direction of all classes can provide all boons, boon removal/corruption is restricted to very few classes. For me the solution therefore lies in reducing the effects of boons in output and/or duration. In the end this back and forth between boon generation and removal is never going to be resolved, so the only solution imo is that boons need to be weaker because they are ridiculously overpowered. In that way it's still worth it to use boons but not as devastating to a group of randoms aka they actually have a chance of doing something against a boonball with somewhat higher numbers.

I'm not saying that a group of 20 randoms should be as powerful as a boonball of 20 but right now, you need at least double the amount of random players to be able to have a chance against a boonball. That just seems out of whack to me. Mind you because of the max amount of people per map, say 60, a boonball of 30+ can hold a map hostage even when the opponent has 60 people there. Not all servers are as organized after all.

That's not taking into account boon removal of course, which can change a lot but mostly random groups don't tend to have that. And Anet seems to be concerned with boonballs of roughly equal size rather than the reality of WvW where you have very unequal groups fighting each other (unequal in number and organization). Sure, boonball vs boonball happens as well but often times they fight ignoring the objectives. It's like GvG more than WvW and I feel that boonball vs random/less organized groups happens a lot more especially when capping objectives.

[God.2708]

Boon removal isn't the counter to boons

Boon Removal Isn't The Counter To Boons

BOON REMOVAL ISN'T THE COUNTER TO BOONS.

Say it again.

You have offensive boons, you have defensive boons. When playing pvp things are in a state of balance so long as boon applications are similar. Anet has stuffed every boon everywhere so really the only reason you shouldn't have boons up, and therefore can match your enemy, is because you're some edgelord main character syndrome solo player who wants to play on a team of 60+ other solo players. Which. Is. Weird. Seriously right click one of those Cele catalysts or something people are complaining about and stay near them. You have boons too. Don't even have to talk to them! Though I've heard that communication makes any team better.

Boon rip exists, rather, to facilitate CC (hard and soft via removal of resist and stab) to pull apart groups to separate squishies from the support. Not because of the boons they provide (though that's a bonus, sure) but rather the green numbers and cleanses.

People need to stop conflating boon balls and boon removal with the existence and 'brokenness' of boons, and recognize the balance issues and tug of war that lies in what their actual purpose is, CC application and chaining. People make topics all the time about CC needing diminishing returns. No doubt one of these 'boon balls' has CCed you for 10s and made it feel like you may as well take your hands off the keyboard and go make a cup of tea. Why would you think the fun solution to that is make sure no one gets to play if CC spam is thrown around. That doesn't sound fun at all. No playing thief or WB and stunbreaking then burning 3k range in dashes to reset isn't a solution or 'high skill' answer to that problem.

[joneirikb.7506]

Curious, should Boon removal only target Stability and Resistance then ? And make it a tool specifically for that, and ignore all other boons? Or alternatively only defensive boons?

Edited July 6, 2023 by joneirikb.7506
minor typo

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

boon removal/corruption is restricted to very few classes.

Engineer, Mesmer, necromancer, ranger (Untamed), revenant, thief, warrior (spellbreaker). From my point of view, it's not "very few", it's definitively a majority.

You also have the an universal way to remove boon which is a sigil (sigil of revocation in sPvP, sigil of nullification/sigil of absorption in WvW/PvE).

Edit: I'm amazed to see that some peoples manage to be confused by some plain facts.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Remove target cap from certain skills. Make WoD great again.

[God.2708]

25 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Curious, should Boon removal only target Stability and Resistance then ? And make it a tool specifically for that, and ignore all other boons? Or alternatively only defensive boons?

I think a change like that would cause far reaching balances issues in small scale wvw and in pvp. My primary point was things are balanced when both sides have boons. At a small controlled level boon rip exists to create imbalance.

The issue is these topics come up and talk about large groups/boonballs and complain about lack of boon rips as they assume what works at this small level should work at this large level without realizing the purpose behind the skills have changed. You aren't suppose to remove all the boons from a large group of people focused on supporting each other. That would make the game horrendous at all levels. That'd make their CCs on clouds even stronger than they already are cuz you bet they are going to take advantage of these new OP boon rips. People act like boon rip king scourge wasn't 50% of zergs at the start of PoF.

The point of boon rip at that scale is meant to work with CCs to pull the group apart because the edge you are trying to get isn't about the number boons each player has, but rather the number of players itself. Targeted removal of stab already exists, it's called CC. Ironically (maybe?) this does beget the question of why resists doesn't have stacks and work like stab now that it only applies to soft CCs and not all condis.

[Jski.6180]

Well i am hopping that they add in a lot of wvw only aimed relics (the new 6th rune utility effect) that aims at the boon ball boons of stab and resistances. Say an effect where you strip one added stack of stab or if your target has stab or resistances you do more dmg to them and or apply more condis. There space for wvw only relics that you can only get from playing wvw (sadly they never added in runes or sigils that where like this but here an real changes anet can add in.)

There an bit of an ideal if the target you hit has stab or resistances strip an boon that boon can be stab or resistances but it can not be no icd.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Jski.6180
Random added ideal.

[Aeolus.3615]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You realize that Chill exist and that one of Chill's 2 effects is to increase CDs. So from a certain point of view, Well of darkness already do what you're suggesting (Elementalist's frozen ground, weaver's monsoon, ranger's frost trap, Engineer's endothermic shell and chronomancer's well of senility also does the trick). Boon removal and condition cleanse complete the "balance" of these effects.

should still remove alacrity or at least deny more alacrity on enemies that are being affected by the well.

 

I tend to forgot players QQ if theres no perma all boons and QQ even harder if something breaks their spam chain and still dont care about those lamers, so yeah i will always talk about possible addition of  strong debuffs which is IMO what necro should excell.

Also game lacks clever and well designed debuffs.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[joneirikb.7506]

If ANet is making sure we can upkeep boons with near 100% uptime, and remove most ways to remove boons. Why not just roll all the boons bonuses into stats baseline, and remove boons? At this point, would it really make much of a difference ? (Obviously not all boons like Aegis/Stability can do that)