So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Gop.8713]

Perhaps, perhaps not. We don't know. But either way the additional versatility is more than sufficient payoff . . .

[Kaleban.9834]

One thing ANet could do to alleviate concerns is after relics release, each character logging in gets the relic that corresponds to their currently equipped rune set. That way no loss of major build effectiveness, and future relics when acquired add to build diversity.

[The Boz.2038]

How are so many players so worried about losing stuff, yet they don't even bother to read up on the changes, is beyond me.

Sheesh.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How are so many players so worried about losing stuff, yet they don't even bother to read up on the changes, is beyond me.

Sheesh.

Perhaps they are worried because they bothered to read up on them.

[Bakeneko.5826]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How are so many players so worried about losing stuff, yet they don't even bother to read up on the changes, is beyond me.

Sheesh.

We read it (at least some of us), problem is, people like me, who have full leggy items sets, will loose QoL item with "compensation". Problem is, unless compensation is "legendary" QoL item, it is net loss over past items.

[Gop.8713]

5 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

We read it (at least some of us), problem is, people like me, who have full leggy items sets, will loose QoL item with "compensation". Problem is, unless compensation is "legendary" QoL item, it is net loss over past items.

It's actually not. If they gave you a legendary qol item, that would increase the utility of your current items to correspond with the increased versatility of the current system without your having to do the work for it. You want something for nothing . . .

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Gop.8713 said:

versatility is the compensation . . 

The versatility must be purchased separately so it cannot be compensation for removal of existing performance.

As described the relic system will, on release, reduce character performamce relative to PvE opposition. That performance must be re-purchased. This is not unlike a game that raises the level cap with its expansions except that in those games characters do not have their performance lowered relative to pre-expansion opposition.

[Zok.4956]

16 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

To celebrate the new system, we’ll distribute a relic selection box to all players at launch.

So, to celebrate the new system Anet takes something away (all relic functionality that players now use with 6 runes) and only gives one relic back?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to give a relic selection box, or at least the matching relic, for every 6 runes already owned or used on an account?

Or maybe, just maybe, even put the relic that matches the runes directly into the relic-slot? So players can continue to play after the update without looking/grinding/buying/whatever for relics (who knows if they will be cheap or expensive?)

[Zok.4956]

14 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

I mean, not having to spend 18 gold per toon to get say, a set of Scholar runes is a pretty nice change.

Consider that Scholar, Ogre, and Deadeye all have the same stat allocation, the only diffeerence between them is that final 6th tier bonus
the current price difference between those 3 sets of runes, 18G for Scholar,, 9G for Ogre, and 6G for Deadeye
without that bonus, theres no reason for runes to cost that much.

If you want the functionality that you now have with 6 scholar runes, it doesn't get cheaper. Maybe the runes will be cheaper, but then the relic will be more expensive.

AND: Because all players loose the bonus of the 6th rune with the update at the same time, nearly all players and their mom will try to get/buy/grind/craft relics ASAP and the relic prices will probably skyrocket after the update.

 

[Sylvyn.4750]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How are so many players so worried about losing stuff, yet they don't even bother to read up on the changes, is beyond me.

Sheesh.

Because in typical Anet fashion, lots of kitten has been left unsaid, leaving everyone to guess the outcome based on whether they are a glass-half-full or glass-half-empty personality...

[GalenWolffit.3842]

16 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

pretty sure this is also a way to make people who already crafted all legendaries to keep crafting legendaries. Next time is going to be the sigils then they'll find a way to force you to craft yet another legendary bauble to remplace some removed feature form armors then weapons, etc, etc.

Legendary aquabreather when?

Legendary infusions when?

Legendary glyphs when?

 

[Barraind.7324]

 

16 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

(which lets not kid our self , it will be Scholar runes once again  for the +5% increased damage) .

Scholar isnt even close to the best 6piece.  Its the best stat block + 6 piece for a lot of builds currently, but for just the 6 piece, theres a whole bunch you'd use over it, especially in group play where something is always going to be burning, things wont usually have boons, and you're always flanking against things that matter.   Berserker is also straight up always better than scholar at all times for everyone in terms of just the 6piece. 

 

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How are so many players so worried about losing stuff, yet they don't even bother to read up on the changes, is beyond me.

Sheesh.

That’s the thing now. Complaining without knowing. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

19 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   ...Your 6th rune will add stat progression and a new gear piece (Relics) would have to be grinded in order to re-gain the 6th bonus and not fell behind handicaped. Or you could buy gems, convert to gold and aleviate some of the grind for the recovering the convenience of something you already had.

Gems aren't the only source of gold or even the primary source of it.  You get gold from just playing the game.  So it's not pay to win.

It's not convenience you're losing.  It's power from the effect that's being lost.  In other words, it's a temporary nerf until the relic can be farmed or crafted and then it's a buff. 

[Cuks.8241]

3 hours ago, Altriba.8092 said:

Not even remotely good enough to compensate for the time, effort, stress, exhaustion, loss of functionality, and general hassle for repairing the damage to the effectiveness of the multiple builds and setups for those like me with 10 or more characters.

If we get a guarantee that the runes we have slotted into gear on the day this system goes live will at least give us those rune's relics to start with, then, and only then will i say its an actual potential improvement to the game.

So they shouldnt improve or add new features into the game because you cant be bothered to gear your characters any further?

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Cuks.8241 said:

So they shouldnt improve or add new features into the game because you cant be bothered to gear your characters any further?

"This thing I bought is now set in stone, ANet! You are not allowed to change it any further!"

Some of these guys rival the "I toiled for the Skyscale so you must, too!" people in.. well, being what they are.

[Luthan.5236]

A lot of stuff does not seem really true. I guess the base stuff will be obtainable not too hard with them maybe pushing the jeweler to 500 ... allowing for more advanced versions (better than the effects we have now). But we'll see.

The main interesting thing will be that we can get different combinations than now. Now the special bonus is usually tied to an existing set of stats and people that might want other stats could find some useful effect in runes where they would not use them cause of the stats.

The "taking away" thing ... we always have such complaints. Happens always - even when stuff gets cheaper and people just bought it more expensive directly before some change. Let's be honest: That's not really too different from other stuff. There also happen balance changes to builds getting nerfed. And stuff like that. (Which might force people to change gear.)

This would have been more annoying if there were a split + keeping the ties to the rune (allowing the thing that previously existed as 6th rune bonus only to be obtained for that rune / in combination with that rune). This is fully something new though were you can make different/other combinations. And the rune ... just nerfed.

[JTGuevara.9018]

17 hours ago, Epsilon Indi.2031 said:

So let me get this straight here to make sure I understand what Relics are.

They're a new item, object, buff, mastery or whatever that grant a 6th rune bonus. Runes will be losing their 6th bonus naturally.  This means people will have to farm relics for all the 6th rune bonuses they already had?

That's not even progression then. That's just Anet giving people the run-around!

[Sylvyn.4750]

13 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

A lot of stuff does not seem really true. I guess the base stuff will be obtainable not too hard with them maybe pushing the jeweler to 500 ... allowing for more advanced versions (better than the effects we have now). But we'll see.

The main interesting thing will be that we can get different combinations than now. Now the special bonus is usually tied to an existing set of stats and people that might want other stats could find some useful effect in runes where they would not use them cause of the stats.

The "taking away" thing ... we always have such complaints. Happens always - even when stuff gets cheaper and people just bought it more expensive directly before some change. Let's be honest: That's not really too different from other stuff. There also happen balance changes to builds getting nerfed. And stuff like that. (Which might force people to change gear.)

This would have been more annoying if there were a split + keeping the ties to the rune (allowing the thing that previously existed as 6th rune bonus only to be obtained for that rune / in combination with that rune). This is fully something new though were you can make different/other combinations. And the rune ... just nerfed.

We'll have to see how it plays out, but it could be on par with having Anet remove all your Ascended armor and giving you all Exotics in exchange, then giving you a few Ascended back in return, but not enough to cover all your builds, and you'll have to grind to get the rest of your Exotics upgraded back to Ascended in the stats you need.

[Astralporing.1957]

19 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

So they shouldnt improve or add new features into the game because you cant be bothered to gear your characters any further?

They can, but they should take care to improve features without taking stuff away if it's not absolutely necessary. And in this case it wasn't necessary. Unless the point was not to add QoL/functionality, but force people to regrind stuff, of course. 

In short, the split itself is not a problem. The problem is having to regrind/rebuy the 6th rune bonuses in new form. It's like hearing that the garage you bought alongside your house is now considered to be separate, and to keep using it you'd have to buy it again.

[Luthan.5236]

I don't think it would be like that. Since they mainly want to focus on the special bonus. Comparing it to ascended ... could be: Making your agony infusions useless and removing the infusion slots from the ascended gear and making another slot where you'd have to add different items (that you would have to obtain newly). [Keeping the expensive stuff ... the infusions for cosmetics.]

I think if we look at the list here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune
 ... seems like there are 6th slot boni that exclusively give something different. And some where the also increase stats. I guess the stats will now always fill up to the 6th slot (even in cases where they stopped at rune 5 and the 6 one only special bonus).

Special bonus = anything different from a +x in stats. Especially summons and stuff like that. Not sure how they +x duration and stuff like that is handled.  Some are in the earlier slots - for some runes. With last slot also having this. And there is damage reduction.

The give something when a certain condition is met (cooldown) I guess also will be a thing for the relics.

[Rose Solane.1027]

3 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

Perhaps, perhaps not. We don't know. But either way the additional versatility is more than sufficient payoff . . .

I don't need the additional versatility. I thought about the proper rune set for each of my six characters and got the runes. I don't need a change that removes the extra effect from the 6th rune for six characters if it only gives me back one relic. Six characters, six runes that will be less powerful and one relic to get back all the functionality for one character. That is a terrible payoff. I am just happy I never made legendary runes, because it looks like legendary runes will loose even more.

Now maybe I can buy the other 5 relics I need for my alts for 18G for each (18G is mentioned in an earlier comment in this thread, it is just an example of what a relic could cost). That would mean that I can buy back the functionality I had for 90G. Luckily I have so much gold 90G is only "some" gold for me. This still doesn't seem like a good change.

[Gibson.4036]

The “we don’t know enough to have an opinion” response ignores that at this point people have a history with this company and the things they often leave unsaid until launch day.

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They can, but they should take care to improve features without taking stuff away if it's not absolutely necessary. And in this case it wasn't necessary. Unless the point was not to add QoL/functionality, but force people to regrind stuff, of course. 

In short, the split itself is not a problem. The problem is having to regrind/rebuy the 6th rune bonuses in new form. It's like hearing that the garage you bought alongside your house is now considered to be separate, and to keep using it you'd have to buy it again.

Nothing is necessary, they could leave the game at vanilla state and call it a day. You would never need to grind for anything. 

I see this similar to new stat sets. A new set comes out with better stat distribution for a specific role. Would you rather it never comes out because now you need to grind for it? 

I see this as a great addition. Not even for min maxing but for actual fun. This opens options for so many fun relic effects withou need to design full rune sets. 

I see this crying as partialy strange, its a rpg game afterall, character building is a big part of it and additional options are usually welcome (and its also more or less horizontal). Also partially sad because some people are so self centric they would try to stiffle progress because it will cost them a few gold. 

I guess new weapon options are also bad because oh noes now players will need to buy them. 

[suialthor.7164]

22 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I see this crying as partialy strange, its a rpg game afterall, character building is a big part of it and additional options are usually welcome (and its also more or less horizontal). Also partially sad because some people are so self centric they would try to stiffle progress because it will cost them a few gold. 

Legendary gear gets new stat combinations whenever those are added to the game.  It in no way stifles progress.  If anything it provides an incentive to invest towards those items.  

For possibly the first time, they are separating what an item does.  I agree with the concept.  But they are taking away part of what we already have.  Offering 1 relic is bad for normal runes.  It is even worse for legendary runes that require drastically more time and gold