WvW roaming is on a terrible state

[Zekent.3652]

WvW has an important part of the GW2 playerbase. The roaming is an important part of WvW but seems that ANet doesn't cares because:

>Cele stats promotes boring and toxic gameplay.

>Stealth spam thieves still a thing. "but just go to a tower or sentry" no, i don't wanna hug a tower or sentry the whole time just because of this toxic gameplay.

>Boonstrips got ANOTHER general nerf, and now it's harder to counter Cele and boonballs.

>Because of the boonstrip nerf, smaller squads and roammer groups have a harder time to deal with massive boonballs.

>Outnumbered rewards were hard nerfed, there's no point on roaming/zergging on disadvantage, you're now just an outnumbered toy for the enemy server.

[Hotride.2187]

When you think about it, what about wvw isnt in a terrible state?

[oatsnjuices.1698]

On the part about small group game play, you just need a leader that stays away from the zergs. I follow some people, they only go near zergs sometimes. It's usually to defend the keep or take smc. Other than that we go to the enemy keep or take a camp over and over in ebg, which is the way to stimulate a fight. We are outnumbered allot, but that is the way my group likes it. We don't give up, if a zerg runs the leader over, we simply go to that keep and play there. Its kinda like a switch, don't flip it if you value your pugs or don't want to personally fight us. I am greatful to play with people like that, people that don't give up and thrive when challenged. I undoubtedly die the most, but allot of the time I go the deepest too. I am not trying to brag on my game play because I'm just a noob being carried, but I'm being carried the right way. That is what you and yours should strive for. Be challenged and kill everything until something fun comes out to play. And those pesky thieves, I am one of them most the time. I will say that good players have no problem dealing with me, I am not mainly stealth, but even so, I'm just after duels most the time, without the traditional bow and res. Attack those thieves until you can beat them. Everything counters thief in the right hands, and I mean everything. Have fun, and don't give up. Join the right crew and you will have tons more fun. Just don't complain when you gotta respawn. I sometimes die 5 or 6 times in 30 minutes, but I go back, grit my teeth, and enjoy the best game going.

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Outnumbered rewards were hard nerfed, there's no point on roaming/zergging on disadvantage, you're now just an outnumbered toy for the enemy server.

There were never any real "outnumbered" rewards, so that point is irrelevant for the current state of roaming.

And you forgot to mention one of the biggest detriments - mounts.

[Zekent.3652]

21 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And you forgot to mention one of the biggest detriments - mounts.

Oof, you're right, mounts were a mistake or just badly implemented.

[fuzzyp.6295]

Agreed.. roaming is in a pretty poor state. We really need more boon rips as opposed to nerfing. So many small guilds run 4 supports and a some cele harb/Willbender... Full groups of power can't break through all the defense. I have no issue with support being important but a group of 5 shouldn't be able to hold off 10+ power focuses players.

I really would love to see the Balance team play small scale but they don't. They balance WvW for zerg play... It feels like there really isn't a place for roamers anymore.

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

WvW has an important part of the GW2 playerbase. The roaming is an important part of WvW but seems that ANet doesn't cares because:

>Cele stats promotes boring and toxic gameplay.

>Stealth spam thieves still a thing. "but just go to a tower or sentry" no, i don't wanna hug a tower or sentry the whole time just because of this toxic gameplay.

>Boonstrips got ANOTHER general nerf, and now it's harder to counter Cele and boonballs.

>Because of the boonstrip nerf, smaller squads and roammer groups have a harder time to deal with massive boonballs.

>Outnumbered rewards were hard nerfed, there's no point on roaming/zergging on disadvantage, you're now just an outnumbered toy for the enemy server.

Roaming in the play style method and a roamer in the noun sense are a different. Since some of the above seem mixed, are you talking about one or another or both?

 

[Gorani.7205]

The problem has nothing to do with roaming. The problem is that WvW is either a very OP single player elite profession option (routed with marketing new expansions to players => power creep) or very large zergs that amplify the "one skill does so many things" problem (boon ball, FBs, passives etc.). The middle ground is gone. Clever and/or bold ideas of a small group on a map that has an impact to the situation on the map. Supply game is gone, defense so wonky, it has to be considered gone (because re-flipping is better all the time). Upgrade timing is gone, scouting and maintenance without being punished by no rewards is gone. And nothing on the horizon to change that.

[joneirikb.7506]

When was the last time roaming wasn't in a terrible state ?

[Gop.8713]

If you look at the wvw changes all the way back to the wall/gate nerfs, but esp this past year since eod, it's clear anet is moving wvw towards the ktrain/blob crowd where the goal is just to find smaller groups to roll over, or unoccupied maps to roll through if you are the smaller blob . . .

That's not my preferred playstyle, but I will say it's an improvement over the previous situation where wvw had no direction at all and we didn't have any idea what kind of mode they were going for. In the past if we complained about the state of roaming or havoc we didn't have any reason to be certain that wvw was intended to be balanced around that playstyle, now we have reason to be certain it is not. So if you like to roam, which I do, great, but understand that you are not anet's target audience for wvw so stop expecting things to be balanced around your playstyle . . .

Also, a semantic point, if you're not running solo, you're not roaming, you're havoc . . .

[Ferus.3165]

7 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

When was the last time roaming wasn't in a terrible state ?

before daredevil came out

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Roaming in the play style method and a roamer in the noun sense are a different. Since some of the above seem mixed, are you talking about one or another or both?

 

Nouns and verbs. 🙂 

lol, love the confused emojis. 🙂 So to clarify for the people that may just be passing thru the forums and/or may just enjoy Forums Wars2, roaming as an act and roaming as a playstyle may to some be considered different. Roaming as an action implies taking what actions that may come up and allows for targets of opportunities that might benefit your side. Roaming may include may different goals and its a flow is very fluid. We are scouting now, now attacking, now defending as a simple example. 

A roamer, can also be either single or multi-tasked. Example, they could be running a role of a scout, a ganker, supply denial , assault stager and nad many more. A roamer can also be roaming meaning their goals are open ended and its a matter of what targets they ID. But a roamer implies one player. Once a roamer gets a battlebuddy or up to 12 of them they move to a havoc. So again, a havoc can be roaming, but they are not a roamer. So a Warband and/or Zerg can be roaming, but they are not roamers.  Nouns and verbs can impact things. 

So sorry, to some this will be clear as mud. What concerns me is the devs defined all these various defined roles to sPvP but then didn't realize there is even more complexity in WvW where efficiency my not impact a 15 minute block, but can a 2 hour skirm let alone a full week long match if players put their mind to it.

From me in this match, to the roamers and havocs, was a fun weekend and it was a good time on all sides, win or lose. Good hunting and may all our bags be full by week end. I will see you, tomorrow. 🙂 Good gaming!

[TheGrimm.5624]

Side note: SIT! If we need leather nodes for all, because, wtw it's leather who wouldn't want leather nodes, and I am aiming to aid in that, you can't hit me with pup pups needing time and then with the Cheeseburger challenge card. Totally rekted motivation to take their bay as well. Especially when a 110 LB Sheppard is doing a blink blink blink what about outside. Just saying, not sure that was a fair ball. Still worked and Maken achieved the end goal but... now I have to pay the price. I have no buns and nothing to make burgers and pup pups gave me the side eye on where were their burgers. So sticking with the slacker call. Just sayin. 😉 Man when you don't get yourself e-killed count on your server and forum friends to do it. That said, still rate it 10 out of 10. 🙂 

[Zepoolpe.9217]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:49 PM, Hotride.2187 said:

When you think about it, what about wvw isnt in a terrible state?

Exactly.
All is said there, no need to go further.

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

before daredevil came out

Nah man thief was the root of all evil even before that.

[joneirikb.7506]

8 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

before daredevil came out

Which leads us full circle back to:

* 2015/03/16 - Stability Change
* 2015/06/23 - Hot Build change
* 2014 ANet stops balancing around sPvP, and starts preparing for balancing for Raids.

So, Roaming been terrible for 8 years ? (I mean, are we really going to say we've been playing this game with terrible roaming for 8 years? Why the kitten haven't we moved on yet?!)

Edited July 24, 2023 by joneirikb.7506

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Which leads us full circle back to:

* 2015/03/16 - Stability Change
* 2015/06/23 - Hot Build change
* 2014 ANet stops balancing around sPvP, and starts preparing for balancing for Raids.

So, Roaming been terrible for 8 years ? (I mean, are we really going to say we've been playing this game with terrible roaming for 8 years? Why the kitten haven't we moved on yet?!)

Exactly, its been terrible that we now see all sorts of roamers versus just three classes roaming. Been awful that we now have a wide variety of builds that we may have to face against. Joking aside, can't talk for others while roaming, but still seeing a wide variety of classes/elites so either the player base is more comfortable with their builds or more people are seeing their builds as viable to solo hunt on. 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Guess im a vocal minority here as honestly I have no major qualms with WvW roaming. Ive been solo/duo and small scaling roaming for years and I go into WvW, take stuff, kill stuff, and lose sometimes however im happy as is. Theres still fights (which is why im there to begin with) and its a good feeling when I take towers and such myself or in my group. Only way to improve imo is to remove down state as it favors larger groups (we can all dream lol). I dont even focus dailies as I naturally get them every week anyway.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/22/2023 at 2:17 PM, Zizekent.2398 said:

WvW has an important part of the GW2 playerbase. The roaming is an important part of WvW but seems that ANet doesn't cares because:

>Cele stats promotes boring and toxic gameplay.

>Stealth spam thieves still a thing. "but just go to a tower or sentry" no, i don't wanna hug a tower or sentry the whole time just because of this toxic gameplay.

>Boonstrips got ANOTHER general nerf, and now it's harder to counter Cele and boonballs.

>Because of the boonstrip nerf, smaller squads and roammer groups have a harder time to deal with massive boonballs.

>Outnumbered rewards were hard nerfed, there's no point on roaming/zergging on disadvantage, you're now just an outnumbered toy for the enemy server.

• Mirage buffs. Class is either invis, invul, or 1 shotting you. They are impossible to ever kill.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Guess im a vocal minority here as honestly I have no major qualms with WvW roaming. Ive been solo/duo and small scaling roaming for years and I go into WvW, take stuff, kill stuff, and lose sometimes however im happy as is. Theres still fights (which is why im there to begin with) and its a good feeling when I take towers and such myself or in my group. Only way to improve imo is to remove down state as it favors larger groups (we can all dream lol). I dont even focus dailies as I naturally get them every week anyway.

I like down state and I think it adds something to a fight, but full down should have to waypoint and no Rally. Downstate skills should just be something like a generic last ditch link to an ally for them to pull you slowly and a slow crawl or something. Enough to have a chance if the other side is sleeping on map awareness, but also having the chance to become bait for the rest of your squad to be lured with. 

To the original post. This isn't open world, and the maps have pretty clear lanes where stuff will gravitate towards and there are rules to win by with time limits. The character balancing kind of reflects player behavior and that's what people want to do. Come home after work with maybe an hour to play, you're probably going to roll right into the large fights because this isn't open world so that's what's going on. Not many people are going to spend that time on their way to the action and their friends playing will they won't they with roamers who are rolling deep enough to think about flexing on boon balls for reasons. 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

54 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I like down state and I think it adds something to a fight, but full down should have to waypoint and no Rally. Downstate skills should just be something like a generic last ditch link to an ally for them to pull you slowly and a slow crawl or something. Enough to have a chance if the other side is sleeping on map awareness, but also having the chance to become bait for the rest of your squad to be lured with. 

 

The fact you can be rezzed mid fight as long as the rezzer goes ooc still favors larger groups so they can be as cocky as they want, whereas no down means they gotta tread more lightly and use brains not brawns. Thats just the way I see it anyway, however there was 1 NDS week that I 8v1'd a group inside my hills (I was solo defending)

[solemn.9670]

Yep +1

[ArchonWing.9480]

11 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

So, Roaming been terrible for 8 years ? (I mean, are we really going to say we've been playing this game with terrible roaming for 8 years? Why the kitten haven't we moved on yet?!)

Lack of options. There's little competition for wvw.

And also other games often have unsavory things like gear treadmills or aggressive monetization. For all its faults, Gw2 doesn't sack your wallet too badly and it's easy to stay relevant.

[TheGrimm.5624]

10 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I like down state and I think it adds something to a fight, but full down should have to waypoint and no Rally.

Would love a test week of this. I think this change alone would hit a number of marks. One it would still give each side the feel of no downstate. It would balance size of play and give reasons for smaller groups to go for it against larger ones. It would keep downstate as a combat mechanic and it would leave it as a strategical one while in a fight. 'Do I try and get an ally back, or are they out of the fight till they can run back?'. So the deeper we are in the longer the run, choosing to fight versus get them up has a higher price attached to it in regards to how far we push. This adds a supply line mechanic in game.

It also remove momentum from an attacker and encourages defenders to try and whittle them down till they can reverse a tide of attackers. Which leads to more fights, and while outnumbered more players willing to try and burn down targets versus just avoid the fight since it will feed the larger side. Now defenders have more reasons to try and go it, if it means while they go to run back, they forced one from the other side to do the same.

There are various reasons people like downstate and various reasons people like no-downstate, I think in testing this there might be common ground between the two. A common ground in both sides is in creating an environment where to fight is the desired outcome. By just adjusting this part of mechanic, we might achieve multiple goals and meet the ideals of downstate and still encourage smaller groups to go for it as we see during no-downstate events.. 

[Dawdler.8521]

6 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

There are various reasons people like downstate and various reasons people like no-downstate, I think in testing this there might be common ground between the two. A common ground in both sides is in creating an environment where to fight is the desired outcome. By just adjusting this part of mechanic, we might achieve multiple goals and meet the ideals of downstate and still encourage smaller groups to go for it as we see during no-downstate events.. 

We already know the the "common ground" - no rally and 1:1 healing.

Zerglings get what they want - no rallybotting and no 5 peeps rubbing a downed but downstate still exist as a factor to combat (ie dont ignore downed).

Roamers/smallscalers get what they want - no hail mary 2x exponential gains in the fight as one guy rallied because one guy died, but the tactical urgency of caring for your downed mates is still there.

Of course I dont think that's something Anet will ever realize since they cant even fix a tiny invisible box shaped wall section.

And those that want to delete downstate dont accept any compromise or have any common ground anyway so its pointless to have a 1 sided argument.