Weapon skill bar for second weapon set useable at all times

[Spucknapf.5178]

Has this ever been tested? What are the reasons for the current system where weapons have to be swapped for the second weapon skill set to be available? And wouldnt it be better to have it available at all times similar to how scourge has all of its shroud skill available? I find it rather clunky to swap weapons and have the swap on cooldown instead of being just a quick cast skill similar to how most other mmos work. What do you think about this?

[Pifil.5193]

27 minutes ago, Spucknapf.5178 said:

Has this ever been tested? What are the reasons for the current system where weapons have to be swapped for the second weapon skill set to be available? And wouldnt it be better to have it available at all times similar to how scourge has all of its shroud skill available? I find it rather clunky to swap weapons and have the swap on cooldown instead of being just a quick cast skill similar to how most other mmos work. What do you think about this?

It's a key component of the combat system. You character has two arms and can wield two weapons at a time (or one two handed weapon). Your second set has a cool down to make swapping to it a decision with consequences. Same with Elementalist attunements.

[Spucknapf.5178]

5 hours ago, Pifil.5193 said:

It's a key component of the combat system. You character has two arms and can wield two weapons at a time (or one two handed weapon). Your second set has a cool down to make swapping to it a decision with consequences. Same with Elementalist attunements.

It a component only used by 5% of the community which adds nothing to the game and only obscures information which could become interesting and critical to the gameplay if it was layed out in a transparent manner aka something akin to the f skills of the scourge.

[Sigmoid.7082]

8 minutes ago, Spucknapf.5178 said:

It a component only used by 5% of the community which adds nothing to the game

Hard disagree it adds nothing to the game. Besides you have absolutely no way of backing up that only 5% of the community engage with the weapon swap mechanic..

[Endaris.1452]

GW2 has competitive game modes, a completely free weaponswap would be terrific for gameplay interaction between players as it removes a big part of predictability of what the other person can do at any given moment.

How most other MMOs work is that they have a global cooldown to prevent excessive skillspam and enable counterplay. Imo the lack of it makes GW2 smoother and more fun to play and weaponswap cooldown is part of what enables this.

[jason.1083]

It will simply overtune everything, the weapon swap is there to void access to too many skills at once, the foundations of combat revolve around that. It's not just PvP that will get flipped on it's head with a change like that. The entire game will, and that would be a balance hell, some weapon skill combos will be too strong either because they'll yield ridiculous damage, or provide perma CC, or excessive sustain. Especially since soon we'll have access to all Elite spec weapons with weapon master training the combinations would throw any sense of balance out the window. 

[Spucknapf.5178]

7 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

It will simply overtune everything, the weapon swap is there to void access to too many skills at once, the foundations of combat revolve around that. It's not just PvP that will get flipped on it's head with a change like that. The entire game will, and that would be a balance hell, some weapon skill combos will be too strong either because they'll yield ridiculous damage, or provide perma CC, or excessive sustain. Especially since soon we'll have access to all Elite spec weapons with weapon master training the combinations would throw any sense of balance out the window. 

You mean how we already have the access to many different skills at a time on different classes which was/is totally fine but if we add 4 weapon skills instead of the garbage system we have now it will be totally unbalanced?

[jason.1083]

10 minutes ago, Spucknapf.5178 said:

You mean how we already have the access to many different skills at a time on different classes which was/is totally fine but if we add 4 weapon skills instead of the garbage system we have now it will be totally unbalanced?

Let me rephrase then, having 2 weapon skill bars available simultaneously will allow for an excess of combos, either combo fields/finishers or just skills that synergize well won't be good for balance. You'll start seeing builds either be effectively immortal in small fights or top DPS builds will go through the roof and the new norm will 100k dps or something. That's why it will be unbalanced. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by jason.1083

[Gop.8713]

It's bc the existing system is better than the one you propose . . .

[Zaraki.5784]

We don't have Djinn as playable race yet, so no. It's literally impossible.

[Gibson.4036]

Are you proposing elementalists would be able to cast from all four attunements at once, too?

And engies will have access to all kit skills for the kits they have slotted?

Edited July 31, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Linken.6345]

12 hours ago, Pifil.5193 said:

It's a key component of the combat system. You character has two arms and can wield two weapons at a time (or one two handed weapon). Your second set has a cool down to make swapping to it a decision with consequences. Same with Elementalist attunements.

Well there was that 1 guy with 4 arms in the SotO preview was it a Seer?

They should be able to have 2 weapon sets at once right?

[Spucknapf.5178]

10 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

Let me rephrase then, having 2 weapon skill bars available simultaneously will allow for an excess of combos, either combo fields/finishers or just skills that synergize well won't be good for balance. You'll start seeing builds either be effectively immortal in small fights or top DPS builds will go through the roof and the new norm will 100k dps or something. That's why it will be unbalanced. 

makes sense, by no means is it an easy implementation, but neither is allowing all weapons being available to all specs, so not completely off the table. Maybe, make the second weapon set have a cooldown of at least 9 seconds to go along with the current limitation? The opening burst will be the same as casting set 1 and set 2 skills when entering a fight, but as fight goes on the damage should stay the same. That way we would be able to see which skills are on cooldown without the need to swap weapons off cooldown. Correct me if im wrong, i have limited understanding of combo fields since most classes i play dont utilize it extensively. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

13 hours ago, Spucknapf.5178 said:

It a component only used by 5% of the community which adds nothing to the game and only obscures information which could become interesting and critical to the gameplay if it was layed out in a transparent manner aka something akin to the f skills of the scourge.

Ok. Your idea is implemented. 

You just powercreeped the entire game to high heavens. 

Nothing is even remotely balanced anymore. 

You have a meeting at 3pm. Your job is to explain how to fix this mess. 

Go. 

[jason.1083]

2 hours ago, Spucknapf.5178 said:

makes sense, by no means is it an easy implementation, but neither is allowing all weapons being available to all specs, so not completely off the table. Maybe, make the second weapon set have a cooldown of at least 9 seconds to go along with the current limitation? The opening burst will be the same as casting set 1 and set 2 skills when entering a fight, but as fight goes on the damage should stay the same. That way we would be able to see which skills are on cooldown without the need to swap weapons off cooldown. Correct me if im wrong, i have limited understanding of combo fields since most classes i play dont utilize it extensively. 

Ok, if the issue is that you don't see your cooldowns on your second weapon set until you swap to it (triggering the weapon swap cooldown). This can completely change direction by just proposing a way to have a visual indication of those cooldowns instead. There's a similar thread about internal cooldowns of engineer kits, I don't think anyone would say no to that. 

Putting both skill bars on screen simultaneously will make it a bit crowded though. 

And about combos, essentially what will happen if you could use both weapon sets at the same time is that if someone or yourself drops a combo field 1 person will be able to get a lot out of it before it expires, this can happen a lot with water fields and leaps/blasts to do AoE heals, or fire fields and blast finishers to reach might cap on a whole party etc. I'm not gonna list all the effects, if you want you can check the wiki on combos. 

But again if you're issue is the hidden cooldowns and you'd be fine with adding a cooldown to the second weapon set on top of this, then why not just add a visual indication of said cooldowns to the game as it is. I'm thinking about replacing the icon on the weapon swap skill with 5 small boxes indicating the cooldowns of your other weapon set, so we don't take any extra space in the UI and we get to see our hidden cooldowns. And if pressing a button to swap to another set is the problem, then do what I do and map it to your mouse for example, as a holosmith main I map my F5 to my mouse 5 instead and "swap weapons" that way. And since my finger is always on that button when I play I merely have to press my thumb in and I weapon swap. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by jason.1083

[Spucknapf.5178]

3 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

Ok, if the issue is that you don't see your cooldowns on your second weapon set until you swap to it (triggering the weapon swap cooldown). This can completely change direction by just proposing a way to have a visual indication of those cooldowns instead. There's a similar thread about internal cooldowns of engineer kits, I don't think anyone would say no to that. 

Putting both skill bars on screen simultaneously will make it a bit crowded though. 

And about combos, essentially what will happen if you could use both weapon sets at the same time is that if someone or yourself drops a combo field 1 person will be able to get a lot out of it before it expires, this can happen a lot with water fields and leaps/blasts to do AoE heals, or fire fields and blast finishers to reach might cap on a whole party etc. I'm not gonna list all the effects, if you want you can check the wiki on combos. 

But again if you're issue is the hidden cooldowns and you'd be fine with adding a cooldown to the second weapon set on top of this, then why not just add a visual indication of said cooldowns to the game as it is. I'm thinking about replacing the icon on the weapon swap skill with 5 small boxes indicating the cooldowns of your other weapon set, so we don't take any extra space in the UI and we get to see our hidden cooldowns. And if pressing a button to swap to another set is the problem, then do what I do and map it to your mouse for example, as a holosmith main I map my F5 to my mouse 5 instead and "swap weapons" that way. And since my finger is always on that button when I play I merely have to press my thumb in and I weapon swap. 

Yeah i see what you mean with the combo field issue, i guess there is no non hacky way around it in the system i proposed, how frustrating. Thanks for entertaining my thoughts but i think this is the end for this thread. Cheers

[captrowdy.9561]

One thing I liked about ESO was the no cooldown on weapon swap. I understand that changing that up this late in the game would nuke balance. One of the reasons I play warrior so much is for the 5sec cooldown. Would be cool if all weapon swaps where 5 instead of 10 

[Cuks.8241]

Its the best system I have seen in mmorpgs. It adds strategy and intetesting interactions like on swap sigils. 

Also I dont see the point of no cd swaps. It removes all the interesting parts of the mechanic and just leaves you with a uselesly complicated skill modifier key. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:40 AM, captrowdy.9561 said:

One thing I liked about ESO was the no cooldown on weapon swap. I understand that changing that up this late in the game would nuke balance. One of the reasons I play warrior so much is for the 5sec cooldown. Would be cool if all weapon swaps where 5 instead of 10 

Well each weapon only really has two attacks in ESO, and it's entirely controlled by the left mouse button (with right mouse being block by default, if I'm remembering right). Even with zero swap CD you have fewer weapon abilities than you do on a single weapon set in GW2.

It's a far, far cry from 10 skills requiring ~10 buttons (or less if you use some unholy shift/ctrl additions). 

Edited August 1, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[XSevSpreeX.2143]

40 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Well each weapon only really has two attacks in ESO, and it's entirely controlled by the left mouse button (with right mouse being block by default, if I'm remembering right). Even with zero swap CD you have fewer weapon abilities than you do on a single weapon set in GW2.

It's a far, far cry from 10 skills requiring ~10 buttons (or less if you use some unholy shift/ctrl additions). 

You're forgetting that each weapon type has its own skill line, consisting of 5 or 6 skills (I forget how many) plus one elite. Granted, it's inefficient to load a skill bar with all weapon skills.

Edited August 1, 2023 by XSevSpreeX.2143

[voltaicbore.8012]

3 hours ago, XSevSpreeX.2143 said:

You're forgetting that each weapon type has its own skill line, consisting of 5 or 6 skills (I forget how many) plus one elite. Granted, it's inefficient to load a skill bar with all weapon skills.

Yeah I remembered those, but decided not to muddy the analogy any further. If I'm remembering right, the weapon swap in ESO also swaps the entire 6 slot skill bar, no? So it's basically fewer skill slots than GW2, and weapon skills compete with utility skills for the same 5 (swappable) slots. I stuck with the light/heavy attack breakdown as those are the "always on" skills when you have a weapon out.

Either way, I feel like too much of the balance in GW2 has accounted for a weapon swap with CD, and I don't think the ESO analogy holds up in terms of combat/build style. It might all be a moot point anyways, since OP seemingly abandoned the idea a few posts back.