I'm lost - what do people want from GW2?

[Hesione.9412]

25 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Some people on these forums like to tell new players that GW2 has almost no grind at all. 

That has never been me, so not sure why you replied to me.

[Linken.6345]

39 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Some people on these forums like to tell new players that GW2 has almost no grind at all. 

You missed a important word there mate it have no mandatory grind.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes with smaller maps like we had before spotted like ticks with wps mounts was not needed.

So they made bigger maps and few waypoints to make mounts needed.

They could have made bigger maps with same waypoint desity as old maps and mounts could have been left out of the game entierly.

So yea they made problems to then introduce mounts to solve those problems.

No, they very clearly made mounts first, and then solved the problem of their increased map coverage by making the maps larger and with less waypoints.  All of the mounts moved too fast for the old map designs to work.  This is a lot of words to say: don't manufacture evil when there clearly was none. 

[Lucy.3728]

On 9/22/2023 at 2:08 AM, Drizzly.4562 said:

Amazing.  I didn't even offer a criticism and someone came in to white knight the game.  Thou doth protest too much.

You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. It's not the game I'm defending, but the players I'm criticizing.

Still amazing?

[starlinvf.1358]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:47 PM, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

Thats your opinion. I took a 7 year break from wow so i have 3 expansions of skins i could get. And the best thing is. If i buy last xpack and lvl to 70 i am strong enough to solo most of those 3 expansions. Sure guildwars 2 has some nice skins. Like reqium if i spelled it right. And there is no math needed because everyone have different tastes of skins they like. 
 

sure rng can be bad. I farmed black temple back then for shaman tier 6 reskin for hunter. Took me 17 runs (17 weeks) while on warrior i got it but was useless. 
 

(Challange) now name a guildwars 2 meta where can drop a nice looking skin. Already got the back pack from echoval wilds. Or whats named. 3nd zone of EoD. 

Invisible shoes in Dragon’s Reach. Triple bonus because its also the ultimate RNG drop in the game.   And new game ++, since its made for mesmers. 

[thorrand.6548]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:44 AM, Hesione.9412 said:

I just don't get the people who don't want to play, but want stuff.

Almost like different people want different things. I would hate to be forced into a mode I don't enjoy for a collection I'm interested in. WvW is boring and getting two shot by perma stealth thieves doesn't feel good. Strikes are fun but the rewards are weekly for some reason. Fractals are amazingly fun but I feel I've missed when they were common content. To get into raiding and CM's I'd have to dive down a rabbit hole to figure out how to get the exact stats I need, then grind the materials for it out. What you're seeing is people seeing the real grind behind this game and how to get something it requires jumping through so many hoops it's extremely demotivating. 

EG: Today for giggles I decided to do my fix-r-up collection to grab a stat selectable hammer. While doing that the game threw another collection at me I had to do to complete it. So I did that collection as well and finally got my hammer. Turns out I could only select between three different stat combos and the Diviner I wanted wasn't one of em. No problem as I can just swap stats in the mystic forge (Which nothing in the game told me was possible which is a gigantic issue with GW2. Obscure indeed. Mandatory wiki open all the time). Figured I'd get the insignias and inscriptions off the market. 

Nope. Turns out those are bound to account so they're not actually sold, so I had to look up how to get the recipes to craft them which is counter to most of the other prefixes for reasons I guess. It's overly complicated and a "quit moment" if you will because the game doesn't even adhere to its own rules it establishes. This was for one piece of gear on one character. I have 12. It's basically eve online's spreadsheet simulator at this point. 

[Drizzly.4562]

10 hours ago, Lucy.3728 said:

You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. It's not the game I'm defending, but the players I'm criticizing.

Still amazing?

My comment was describing what I wanted from GW2.  You told me to make my own game.

You didn't even stop for a second to consider if I thought my very limited wants were already being met.

Yes, it's still amazing, thank you for asking.

[Hesione.9412]

4 hours ago, thorrand.6548 said:

Almost like different people want different things. I would hate to be forced into a mode I don't enjoy for a collection I'm interested in. WvW is boring and getting two shot by perma stealth thieves doesn't feel good. Strikes are fun but the rewards are weekly for some reason. Fractals are amazingly fun but I feel I've missed when they were common content. To get into raiding and CM's I'd have to dive down a rabbit hole to figure out how to get the exact stats I need, then grind the materials for it out. What you're seeing is people seeing the real grind behind this game and how to get something it requires jumping through so many hoops it's extremely demotivating.

What do you want Anet to do? Give players a quiz as to what parts of the game they don't like and then change all achievements for that player to only the game modes they enjoy?

As I keep saying all MMOs have a large grind inherent to them. It's the MMO model. What am I reading is a bunch of people who apparently don't like MMOs.

Want to know what grinding is? Here are 2 examples:

Do a small number of specific daily tasks to shift reputation with a faction from neutral to revered or exalted, with diminishing faction reputation points the higher you go. So it takes weeks to get exalted with that one faction. To get the one ring that is best-in-slot. And there are other factions for which you need to rep grind if you want to do raids. Then the next expansion comes out, the ring is now too low level, but there are new factions that you can rep grind with.

Spend 6 months doing dungeons and raids repeatedly to get materials that are random drops, and other players also want them, to get your shiny chest piece, only to have the second quest in the expansion offer a better chest piece as a reward for the quest completion.

Nothing that Anet has implemented is anything like that. And I never went to the forums to complain about the grinding. I wanted the ring, so I reputation ground. I wanted the chest piece, so I did all the activities that I needed for it.

Those were choices.

[Gravitron.7982]

1 hour ago, Hesione.9412 said:

What do you want Anet to do? Give players a quiz as to what parts of the game they don't like and then change all achievements for that player to only the game modes they enjoy?

As I keep saying all MMOs have a large grind inherent to them. It's the MMO model. What am I reading is a bunch of people who apparently don't like MMOs.

Want to know what grinding is? Here are 2 examples:

Do a small number of specific daily tasks to shift reputation with a faction from neutral to revered or exalted, with diminishing faction reputation points the higher you go. So it takes weeks to get exalted with that one faction. To get the one ring that is best-in-slot. And there are other factions for which you need to rep grind if you want to do raids. Then the next expansion comes out, the ring is now too low level, but there are new factions that you can rep grind with.

Spend 6 months doing dungeons and raids repeatedly to get materials that are random drops, and other players also want them, to get your shiny chest piece, only to have the second quest in the expansion offer a better chest piece as a reward for the quest completion.

Nothing that Anet has implemented is anything like that. And I never went to the forums to complain about the grinding. I wanted the ring, so I reputation ground. I wanted the chest piece, so I did all the activities that I needed for it.

Those were choices.

Yup the game is "Pick Your Grind, either way, ur gonna grind"

[Curennos.9307]

4 hours ago, thorrand.6548 said:

Almost like different people want different things. I would hate to be forced into a mode I don't enjoy for a collection I'm interested in. WvW is boring and getting two shot by perma stealth thieves doesn't feel good. Strikes are fun but the rewards are weekly for some reason. Fractals are amazingly fun but I feel I've missed when they were common content. To get into raiding and CM's I'd have to dive down a rabbit hole to figure out how to get the exact stats I need, then grind the materials for it out. What you're seeing is people seeing the real grind behind this game and how to get something it requires jumping through so many hoops it's extremely demotivating. 

EG: Today for giggles I decided to do my fix-r-up collection to grab a stat selectable hammer. While doing that the game threw another collection at me I had to do to complete it. So I did that collection as well and finally got my hammer. Turns out I could only select between three different stat combos and the Diviner I wanted wasn't one of em. No problem as I can just swap stats in the mystic forge (Which nothing in the game told me was possible which is a gigantic issue with GW2. Obscure indeed. Mandatory wiki open all the time). Figured I'd get the insignias and inscriptions off the market. 

Nope. Turns out those are bound to account so they're not actually sold, so I had to look up how to get the recipes to craft them which is counter to most of the other prefixes for reasons I guess. It's overly complicated and a "quit moment" if you will because the game doesn't even adhere to its own rules it establishes. This was for one piece of gear on one character. I have 12. It's basically eve online's spreadsheet simulator at this point. 

'That was for one piece of gear on one character' - That was for a hammer that will have the maximum possible stats and be BiS for as long as the game exists and can be used on any character, and be switched to any stat combo if you have the exotic insignia. You won't be forced to re-grind for that hammer every 3/6/12 months because the current copy is suddenly worthless. The hammer isn't suddenly going to be nerfed so that you don't have what you originally worked for. There are, of course, exceptions to what I'm saying here as anet does do stat-combo tuning every so often, but by and large that is the standard. Heck, you can get exotic gear and be set for life, albeit that is character-bound - I still have some exotic gear pieces I still use that are years old.

People will come to GW2 expecting its systems to be the same or very similar to other games and that's just not the case - and be shocked when that isn't the case. Now, don't get me wrong - GW2 has a **HUGE** issue with onboarding new players and its tutorials are absolutely atrocious, and I do think things are currently soulbound that should be sellable (*grinds teeth* I don't really want to complete PoF hearts for a plague doctor insignia but eh, it would take maybe a leisurely day or two) But you can go to the auction house right now and pay 13g 99s for a divinier's pearl crusher and unless you're running with elitists or doing fractals, you're set for life. Collections are more about the weapon skin than the actual quality of the item - they're just one way to get an ascended item, and there are multiple ways to do it. 

The game really doesn't tell people that you can go to the wiki here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/Equipment_query?title=Special%3ARunQuery%2FEquipment_query&Equipment_query=rarity%3DAscended%26supertype%3DWeapon%26type%3DHammer%26class%3D%26prefix%3DDiviner%26exclude%2Bselectable%3DExclude%2Bselectable%26offset%3D&_run=&pfRunQueryFormName=Equipment+query&wpRunQuery=&pf_free_text=&Equipment+query[rarity]=Ascended&Equipment+query[supertype]=Weapon&Equipment+query[type]=Hammer&Equipment+query[class]=&Equipment+query[prefix]=Diviner&Equipment+query[exclude+selectable]=Include+selectable&Equipment+query[offset]=&wpRunQuery=&pf_free_text= and search whatever you want. It's a little lacking in the ease of UI use department but it'll tell you where things can come from. I do think GW2 could do a much better job giving the player information, and plugging the wiki where necessary, such as pointing to particularly useful pages like the one above.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 9/20/2023 at 2:44 AM, Hesione.9412 said:

Reading the forums, it's:

1. The Gift of Battle is too much effort.
2. The new SotO legendary armour is too much effort.
3. The warclaw is too much effort.

All MMOs are basically a grind game. In GW2 it's different because you decide what your end-game is, unlike other games where the end-game is high-end raids. This means that you're not on a progression treadmill because you're not going to miss out. The legendary armour is always going to be there. The mount you want is always going to be there. But there is always something to work towards that takes time, because that's an MMO.

I'm lost as to why people are playing an MMO if they don't appear to want to play an MMO.

If you want to win at fashion wars, e.g., you don't need to do any grind other than getting the pieces you want for your wardrobe, and your dyes. If you want to RP, there's guilds and fellow players that want to RP with you as well -  your grind is organising your scripts (and maybe your wardrobe). If you're Choco, it's working out how to entertain us the next time the chocos appear (and I'm looking forward to the choco efforts for Halloween).

I just don't get the people who don't want to play, but want stuff.

When you consistently fail at everything, and refuse to seek another path, the only way to deal with it is to cope and make up your own version of the game.

So the excuses roll in. WvW/pvp are invalid game modes, because they only pve. But they suck at instanced content, so that's not pve. And this, well, OW armor is almost here, but I guess the copium is running thin so what to blame now?

Note that I am 100% in favor of OW legendary armor because OW is the premier content for Gw2. However, it's not going to help those types of player because they weren't exactly fans of OW, it just happened to be a convenient excuse

That doesn't mean requirements can be reevaluated, of course. Is all grind expected to be horrifically dull? Things can always be improved.

And yea, I've skinned my legendary armor with sub 80 skins because it looked better before. You don't really stand out when a bunch of other people have the same setup of legendaries and you just follow them.  But people have turned down their character settings so it doesn't even matter.

Honestly, I think it's just 1st world problems. In fact it may actually be good if players have the time to worry about trivial matters because that means the game as a whole is pretty good.

Edited September 24, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[thorrand.6548]

3 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

'That was for a hammer that will have the maximum possible stats and be BiS for as long as the game exists and can be used on any character, and be switched to any stat combo if you have the exotic insignia. You won't be forced to re-grind for that hammer every 3/6/12 months because the current copy is suddenly worthless. The hammer isn't suddenly going to be nerfed so that you don't have what you originally worked for. There are, of course, exceptions to what I'm saying here as anet does do stat-combo tuning every so often, but by and large that is the standard. Heck, you can get exotic gear and be set for life, albeit that is character-bound - I still have some exotic gear pieces I still use that are years old.

No gear treadmill where you have to refarm the same piece but from where I'm sitting expansions and balance passes fulfill the same roll as the gear treadmill you think I'm obviously comparing the system to. I'm not. What if a balance pass simply makes the hammer not fun to play? As for exotics, I just couldn't for the life of me figure out where to slot the infusions... Unsure exactly how that's set for life when you lock yourself out of content by only using exotics. 

Quote

People will come to GW2 expecting its systems to be the same or very similar to other games and that's just not the case - and be shocked when that isn't the case.

It's stated it wasn't the case. A big selling point was that this game lacked the holy trinity yet fell into that trap over time. I'm not comparing this game to any other. I'm comparing this game to this game. I gave you my experience with the system and how much of a headache it was. I already have full ascended I was just trying to get a second hammer for a different spec. Grind within grind and having to go outside of the game to figure out why obtaining that particular stat selection was so much more convoluted than others I had stat swapped before. 

Quote

The game really doesn't tell people that you can go to the wiki here:

I clearly did go to the wiki to figure it out. I don't want the game to tell me I need to go to a third party site to work out its systems. I want the game itself to explain it. What's difficult about that to understand? it's terrible for the new player experience to have your inventory crammed with items you have no idea what they're used for and if it's worth sacrificing their limited space for. I've put in my time and worked this out.  Because it's how it is doesn't make it good game design. 

Edit: at this point a gear treadmill game just involves leveling and regearing. This game the treadmill is trying to work out the rules the game itself lays out as how things work until it's not how it works anymore like account bound exotic insignias but only for some prefixes. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by thorrand.6548
gear treadmill isn't better or worse than gw2's idea of horizontal progression

[ShadowKatt.6740]

10 hours ago, thorrand.6548 said:

. 

 

10 hours ago, thorrand.6548 said:

No problem as I can just swap stats in the mystic forge (Which nothing in the game told me was possible which is a gigantic issue with GW2. Obscure indeed. Mandatory wiki open all the time). Figured I'd get the insignias and inscriptions off the market. 

You can change stats on equipment? ANY equipment?

Edited September 24, 2023 by ShadowKatt.6740

[Drizzly.4562]

2 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

 

You can change stats on equipment? ANY equipment?

You can change stats on ascended weapons and armor with a mystic forge recipe. 
A few specific ascended trinkets can stat swap with basically a "reset" item that makes it so you can select the stats again, but usually it's better to just get another trinket.

Legendary items can have their stats selected freely, and it rules.

[DeanBB.4268]

3 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

 

You can change stats on equipment? ANY equipment?

Ascended weapons and armor can have their stats changed in the mystic forge. This essentially destroys the existing item and creates a new one, so remove any valuable upgrades first. Details are on the wiki.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Just now, Drizzly.4562 said:

You can change stats on ascended weapons and armor with a mystic forge recipe. 
A few specific ascended trinkets can stat swap with basically a "reset" item that makes it so you can select the stats again, but usually it's better to just get another trinket.

Legendary items can have their stats selected freely, and it rules.

If FEEL like I should be been told this a some point. I have been here for ELEVEN YEARS!

I know legendary can change stats. I just don't have any brcause, well, I hate grinding.

[Lucy.3728]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

If FEEL like I should be been told this a some point. I have been here for ELEVEN YEARS!

Bro I hear you. I played for 3 years until someone told me that I can just spam-right-click those wiggling reward chests at the corner of the screen to immediately open them without its pop-up menu. (And wvw has A LOT of those, that even right-click-spam is a chore xD)

And there are other examples too that I need to complain about in front of my guild or friends until they told me what's possible.

Switching stats on ascended items is nice but costs the fitting inscription/insignia and 5 ectos (rest is cheap). So if you need to switch an entire armor set it may be costy depending on the insignia. Berserker, for example, is about 6g atm, each.

And for the trinkets with reset item, go for the bloodstone ones. https://www.peuresearchcenter.com/resources/living-story-trinkets.php

Edited September 24, 2023 by Lucy.3728

[Dibit.6259]

13 hours ago, thorrand.6548 said:

Almost like different people want different things. I would hate to be forced into a mode I don't enjoy for a collection I'm interested in. WvW is boring and getting two shot by perma stealth thieves doesn't feel good. Strikes are fun but the rewards are weekly for some reason. Fractals are amazingly fun but I feel I've missed when they were common content. To get into raiding and CM's I'd have to dive down a rabbit hole to figure out how to get the exact stats I need, then grind the materials for it out. What you're seeing is people seeing the real grind behind this game and how to get something it requires jumping through so many hoops it's extremely demotivating. 

EG: Today for giggles I decided to do my fix-r-up collection to grab a stat selectable hammer. While doing that the game threw another collection at me I had to do to complete it. So I did that collection as well and finally got my hammer. Turns out I could only select between three different stat combos and the Diviner I wanted wasn't one of em. No problem as I can just swap stats in the mystic forge (Which nothing in the game told me was possible which is a gigantic issue with GW2. Obscure indeed. Mandatory wiki open all the time). Figured I'd get the insignias and inscriptions off the market. 

Nope. Turns out those are bound to account so they're not actually sold, so I had to look up how to get the recipes to craft them which is counter to most of the other prefixes for reasons I guess. It's overly complicated and a "quit moment" if you will because the game doesn't even adhere to its own rules it establishes. This was for one piece of gear on one character. I have 12. It's basically eve online's spreadsheet simulator at this point. 

Hi, just some information that might be of some use to you in regards to getting the ascended hammer you wanted/need.

Since you enjoy strikes, and providing you have POF & EOD minimum, there's the vendor Zazzl in Arborstone that you can buy stat selectable Living Water Hammer with 500 blue prophet shards and 15gd.  If you don't have enough blue prophet shards you can also get them by doing Ibs strikes daily. A little bit of a grind but it's at least with content you find fun.

 

Hope this helps

[thorrand.6548]

31 minutes ago, Dibit.6259 said:

Hi, just some information that might be of some use to you in regards to getting the ascended hammer you wanted/need.

Since you enjoy strikes, and providing you have POF & EOD minimum, there's the vendor Zazzl in Arborstone that you can buy stat selectable Living Water Hammer with 500 blue prophet shards and 15gd.  If you don't have enough blue prophet shards you can also get them by doing Ibs strikes daily. A little bit of a grind but it's at least with content you find fun.

 

Hope this helps

That is helpful. Issue with that isn't the grind and I have plenty of shards, it's the not knowing what stats you'd be able to select for such an investment. There's nothing in game that answers that question for me so without having to resort to asking other players or being forced to look it up on the wiki. Then you have people complaining that players are poorly geared or not pulling enough dps because the game teaches you the absolute bare minimum. The wiki is a crutch for poor game design that relies on being cryptic and expecting you to remember what random vendor sells what random gear with the stats you need are. They overly complicate systems and expect the wiki to do the heavy lifting for them and I've seen first hand the effect that has on new players who don't have the time to commit that much energy in a game they hypothetically are playing for fun.

The skill floor and ceiling are the widest I've ever seen in an mmo. while those that have put thousands of hours into the content just know this kind of stuff while new players are bombarded with people telling them to go down the wiki rabbit hole to progress after a certain point. Then you get a couple of camps of people, the ones who are geared for the meta and flavor of the month complain the game is too easy while a lot of newer players are put off doing anything other than playing dress up. Yes the game is easy, once you get to understand how stats work, what they mean, how to get the stats you need without gimping your character or wasting all of your currencies in the process, understanding the wind ups and tells of bosses and enemies, what the timing of the bosses aoe's are and which ones you can cheese, what other classes and boon support and roles you need to do said content. 

It's a lot to expect and the game not easing that process with in game information is detrimental to the overall  experience. That's my take on it. Still love the game it just really irks me when I see people complaining about the game being too easy when they have plenty of the only things that matter in horizontal progression. Knowledge of the games systems the game doesn't want to explain in any sort of in depth capacity, time invested in the game, and experience of repeatedly doing that same content until it becomes rote while waiting months upon months for something else to do in the game. 

edit: For whoever immediately reacts with a confused emote, we're on a forum. It's ok to use your words and actually say what about the post confuses you. Or is it simply a reddit style dislike? 🤣🤣

Edited September 24, 2023 by thorrand.6548
instant confusion

[DreamyAbaddon.3265]

1 hour ago, thorrand.6548 said:

That is helpful. Issue with that isn't the grind and I have plenty of shards, it's the not knowing what stats you'd be able to select for such an investment. There's nothing in game that answers that question for me so without having to resort to asking other players or being forced to look it up on the wiki. Then you have people complaining that players are poorly geared or not pulling enough dps because the game teaches you the absolute bare minimum. The wiki is a crutch for poor game design that relies on being cryptic and expecting you to remember what random vendor sells what random gear with the stats you need are. They overly complicate systems and expect the wiki to do the heavy lifting for them and I've seen first hand the effect that has on new players who don't have the time to commit that much energy in a game they hypothetically are playing for fun.

The skill floor and ceiling are the widest I've ever seen in an mmo. while those that have put thousands of hours into the content just know this kind of stuff while new players are bombarded with people telling them to go down the wiki rabbit hole to progress after a certain point. Then you get a couple of camps of people, the ones who are geared for the meta and flavor of the month complain the game is too easy while a lot of newer players are put off doing anything other than playing dress up. Yes the game is easy, once you get to understand how stats work, what they mean, how to get the stats you need without gimping your character or wasting all of your currencies in the process, understanding the wind ups and tells of bosses and enemies, what the timing of the bosses aoe's are and which ones you can cheese, what other classes and boon support and roles you need to do said content. 

It's a lot to expect and the game not easing that process with in game information is detrimental to the overall  experience. That's my take on it. Still love the game it just really irks me when I see people complaining about the game being too easy when they have plenty of the only things that matter in horizontal progression. Knowledge of the games systems the game doesn't want to explain in any sort of in depth capacity, time invested in the game, and experience of repeatedly doing that same content until it becomes rote while waiting months upon months for something else to do in the game. 

edit: For whoever immediately reacts with a confused emote, we're on a forum. It's ok to use your words and actually say what about the post confuses you. Or is it simply a reddit style dislike? 🤣🤣

reddit style dislike

[Drizzly.4562]

Like reddit dislikes, you'll quickly learn basically no one pays attention to them except a small handful of people who really, really pay attention to them.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Yup the game is "Pick Your Grind, either way, ur gonna grind"

GW2 players when they don't get a high end item in 5 minutes: "GW2 is extremely grindy!!!"

[kharmin.7683]

9 hours ago, thorrand.6548 said:

 

A big selling point was that this game lacked the holy trinity yet fell into that trap over time.

 

I blame raids for this.  Until raids arrived, there really wasn't a need for a trinity system.  /shrug

[Bladestrom.6425]

46 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

GW2 players when they don't get a high end item in 5 minutes: "GW2 is extremely grindy!!!"

 Players who know and love GW1 and 2 understand collections is at the heart of the games philosophy and always has been, its people who join GW2 and have been weened on instant gratification and self entitlement that don't get it, they actually think its a problem lol!  In their head 'grind' is a label they apply to a long term objective to justify why they should get the item at just the time they want to get it.

Edited September 24, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Bladestrom.6425]

4 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I blame raids for this.  Until raids arrived, there really wasn't a need for a trinity system.  /shrug

You are right, 99% of the content in the game is designed to give players freedom to do what they want and does not need the trinity at all.

Edit, ^^ and people coming from trinity games that cant adapt.

Edited September 24, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563