Can we get challenge yet not dps check content please

[uberkingkong.8041]

Can we get challenge yet not dps check content please.

As in raids yet in the raids its not dps check fights and what not.

Instead it

includes, racing, having to race to the next event.

Includes jumping puzzle, like halloween one

Includes bell choir

Includes a dancing event.

 

A marathon raid doing all of that, mess up start all over again.

 

I feel like this game lacks difficult stuff but in terms of dps checks.

Soo-Wong meta event was really enjoyable when it was released and part of the enjoyment was difficulty and getting and closer and closer, and finally beating it. I would like more difficult but not in terms of dps checks and bigger hp boxes of the boss.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

DPS Checks are a player invented thing. ANet has no DPS meters in game. Third party developers made a DPS meter and some players who installed them are being an kitten over them.

Join a friendly group or raiding guild and you don't have to worry about getting offended over DPS meter readings.

 

Yes, some read bosses have timers and deadly events when the entire group is putting out low DPS. But this is far less of an issue now there has been quite some power creep since the release of the raids and now many players know the raid mechanics very well.

Stay away from CMs, join a friendly guild or group and you will be fine.

[Jedrik.3109]

A dps check is only formed if there is a timer on the encounter that triggers a fail state. 

First, how to define difficulty. Is something difficult if there is no fail state?

Second, convince the community that events failing is reasonable. What should be the win rate on events?

Third, only 3 maybe 4 raids/strikes have a dps check. The rest as long as you do the mechanics you will win. This is what you want, correct?

I'm not really sure what you are asking for and with the propensity of our community to react if things can fail due to challenge not sure if this is the right game for that.

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

DPS Checks are a player invented thing. ANet has no DPS meters in gam

As long as there are encounters with enrage timers or hard time limits then there are DPS checks. There does not need to be an official dps meter for there to be a minimum dps requirement for an encounter.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think the only real dps check in the game with current levels of powercreep is cosmic observatory challenge mote. everything else is more than doable if only half your squad is doing decent damage, including fractal and raid cm's, and bosses like dhuum have even been done with as few as four players.

 

sunqua peak, silent surf and cosmic observatory are just fake dps checks as well because they favor range and condition damage. if you go in there with a ranged condi build like condition virtuoso, you will find that your damage doubles or triples and gives you plenty of room to avoid mechanics. this has been called out as being bad design since the rest of the game favors melee power and support builds, but for some reason arenanet continues to make new encounters work like this.

 

i feel like the only new encounter we've had in years that doesn't favor this style of gameplay is temple of febe, but we have yet to see the challenge mote. if you have to spread every five seconds again then we'll be back to the same situation no doubt.

 

i think when players ask for the game to go back to focusing on mechanics and not damage (i'm one of them), what they're actually asking is for it to go back to the old encounter design that wasn't playing out like an episode of road runner and coyote. to put it simply, damage was always important, its just that you could always do damage before without relying on specific builds and class mechanics that not everyone has access to, or trained up.

Edited February 3 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Leger.3724]

Look at an optimal rotation on snow crow. If you want your problem that's it, right there. Nothing is as consequential as maintaining a decent rotation of your abilities. Does anyone deep down honestly believe that's a good game design? That the game is better served with a player remembering a 20 step rotation than making active decisions?

The answer to why this game's end game content and pvp has not and will never succeed comes down to this. There is literally nothing rewarding or engaging for a player. Nothing. You memorized the rotation or you did not. It's that simple. The only reason people do these game modes is for gear or because they want to feel like somebody and they failed to be a somebody in the games with bigger communities like pvp mobas or World of Warcraft raids.

The combat design in this game was so fundamentally flawed from day 1 and then their first expansion they quadrupled down on every bad decision from launch. The state of the game right now should surprise no one. The only thing people care about is open world pve where combat matters the least.

Until this basic reality is addressed (with a Guild Wars 3) expect to be making another post like this in the future.

Edited February 4 by Leger.3724

[Firebeard.1746]

4 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

DPS Checks are a player invented thing. ANet has no DPS meters in game. Third party developers made a DPS meter and some players who installed them are being an kitten over them.

Join a friendly group or raiding guild and you don't have to worry about getting offended over DPS meter readings.

 

Yes, some read bosses have timers and deadly events when the entire group is putting out low DPS. But this is far less of an issue now there has been quite some power creep since the release of the raids and now many players know the raid mechanics very well.

Stay away from CMs, join a friendly guild or group and you will be fine.

I mean soo won is essentially a dps check. Dps allows you to skip mechanics as well as being the reason a given group does or doesn't pass the encounter. Whether or not they provide a dps meter is irrelevant: any sort of enrage timer is essentially a dps check when you have builds that can literally do 0 damage or very close to it. 

Co cm is not hard in mechanics per se, but there's so many it's easy for someone to die and miss the enrage timer. 

[Barraind.7324]

I am convinced at this point you just troll every single MMO forum you can find. 

[Loctar.3987]

12 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

DPS Checks are a player invented thing. ANet has no DPS meters in game. Third party developers made a DPS meter and some players who installed them are being an kitten over them.

Join a friendly group or raiding guild and you don't have to worry about getting offended over DPS meter readings.

 

Yes, some read bosses have timers and deadly events when the entire group is putting out low DPS. But this is far less of an issue now there has been quite some power creep since the release of the raids and now many players know the raid mechanics very well.

Stay away from CMs, join a friendly guild or group and you will be fine.

what you write here is of course not true, when I tried raiding a long time ago I was questioned about my experience and since I didn't have LI to prove I was playing I had to pass a dps check. who didn't want to was kicked out, who didn't reach the minimum dps was kicked out. it's a long time ago but when I remember what happened recently when I got the urge to try again I know nothing has changed. The raid community is the worst kind of elitists I've ever known in any game. Luckily I'm not interested in raiding anymore, I got my legit gear through other modes. And just a final note, as too many people complain about wvw and people who won't let anyone in without a voice etc. kitten, I have to say it's a totally sunny community compared to raiders

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think the only real dps check in the game with current levels of powercreep is cosmic observatory challenge mote. everything else is more than doable if only half your squad is doing decent damage, including fractal and raid cm's, and bosses like dhuum have even been done with as few as four players.

Soo Won became doable on daily basis basically only through excluding majority of the population. At first by literally excluding them by forming highly controlled organized squads, and later by the sheer convenience of most of those players just no longer coming to the event at all.

DPS check does not need to be anywhere close to the benchmarks to stop most of this game's population. Not with the average player's damage hovering in the 4-6k range.

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

Look at an optimal rotation on snow crow. If you want your problem that's it, right there. Nothing is as consequential as maintaining a decent rotation of your abilities. Does anyone deep down honestly believe that's a good game design? That the game is better served with a player remembering a 20 step rotation than making active decisions?

The answer to why this game's end game content and pvp has not and will never succeed comes down to this. There is literally nothing rewarding or engaging for a player. Nothing. You memorized the rotation or you did not. It's that simple. The only reason people do these game modes is for gear or because they want to feel like somebody and they failed to be a somebody in the games with bigger communities like pvp mobas or World of Warcraft raids.

The combat design in this game was so fundamentally flawed from day 1 and then their first expansion they quadrupled down on every bad decision from launch. The state of the game right now should surprise no one. The only thing people care about is open world pve where combat matters the least.

Until this basic reality is addressed (with a Guild Wars 3) expect to be making another post like this in the future.

Games having literally 4 skills per character already have an "optimal combo" setups. If you think "rotation existing" is somehow an issue with game design, I'm not sure you understand what you're trying to talk about here. Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't.

 

38 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Soo Won became doable on daily basis basically only through excluding majority of the population. At first by literally excluding them by forming highly controlled organized squads, and later by the sheer convenience of most of those players just no longer coming to the event at all.

That's literally false.

Edited February 4 by Sobx.1758

[Leger.3724]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Games having literally 4 skills per character already have an "optimal combo" setups. If you think "rotation existing" is somehow an issue with game design, I'm not sure you understand what you're trying to talk about here. Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't.

 

That's literally false.

Yes, 4 skill games have "rotations" and combos. But players quickly move beyond that because it's not hard to remember 4 abilities and the handful of ways you can use them. The games become more about positioning, decision making and coordinating with others. That's why 150 million people play League of Legends each month and 150 play GW2 sPvP. Nobody wants an unintuitive game where you have to practice for hours and hours and hours so you're not absolutely trash on a DPS meter or boon meter. You and others can keep deluding yourself that there's some inherent skill to putting in countless hours learning dozens of different 15-25 step rotations and that is what makes a player skilled... but then there's reality. The reality that none of you matter in a game like League of Legends, none of you matter in the raids scene in World of Warcraft. If you were as good as you think, why couldn't you succeed in these games? Why is your only success in Guild Wars 2?

Soccer could add all sorts of stupid rules. You must hop on one foot without the ball, you must tie a hand behind your back. You need to clap 5 times before you take a shot. But they keep it simple. They keep it accessible. And despite being simple, soccer is extremely competitive and I'm nowhere near the level of Messi.

Arena Net needs to ask themselves - should we continue to cater to this extremely small group of self-deluding gamers or should we try to make a sustainable game and game modes?

Edited February 4 by Leger.3724

[QueenKeriti.5176]

What? I am so confused on what your point is, and especially how it relates to OP's point. I know I skimmed the thread because I think OP has missed that there are a ton of DPS checks in things like Dragon's End and other metas, but what?

I've yet to play an MMO that doesn't require some degree of rotation management to either maximize efficiency or make the class/profession/job/whatever actually viable in PvE/PvP. Shoot, there are other RPGs/FPS/etc that require some form of rotation/team resource management if you want to complete challenges.

LoL and GW2 in general, let alone LoL and GW2 sPvP, are two entirely different games catering to two entirely different playerbases/communities. GW2 sPvP is all but an afterthought to add something "MMO-y" to a largely PvE game (or PvPvE in WvW's case). LoL's entire game is BASED on PvP, and a specific type of PvP, at that.. It's a MOBA, not an MMO. MOBAs != MMOs, MMOs != MOBAs, and they don't even come close to having the exact same appeal to people. I hate MOBAs, I like MMOs. I play MMOs, not MOBAs, and I don't mind/care if people love MOBAs but hate MMOs. That's their business; people like different things. If I wanted to play LoL (MOBA), or something like Call of Duty (FPS), or something like Bioshock (singleplayer RPG), I'd play those. But I don't. I want to play an MMO with the features/style MMOs come with, so I play MMOs. I don't go to the LoL forums and ask for MMO things because I know they're completely different games.

You're comparing apples to couches. Comparing WoW to GW2 makes sense. Comparing GW2 to League doesn't. They're completely different. They cater to different demographics. Their styles are completely different. Their appeals are completely different. Their accessibility and time requirements are completely different.

I don't want to matter in LoL because I don't care about LoL or its playstyle. People here in GW2 have succeeded just fine in the raid scene in games like WoW and FFXIV and do fine here. I was decent in Aion and FFXIV; I just don't like raids in general anymore, let alone in GW2. You're making some wild assumptions about GW2 players, and I'm so confused where it's come from.

Mirror, man. Mirror. What do you consider sustainable vs what I consider sustainable? Are we playing the same game or have the same expectations/ideas for that game? 

[Sobx.1758]

47 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Yes, 4 skill games have "rotations" and combos. But players quickly move beyond that because it's not hard to remember 4 abilities and the handful of ways you can use them. The games become more about positioning, decision making and coordinating with others.

Not really, even in those games there are serious mechanical gaps -even specifically in terms of performing those combos/rotations- between the players. Your complaint doesn't make much sense, there's always some "better order of using skills" which is exactly how "rotations" and "combos" are and will be a thing. Not that you necessarily need to perfect or perform them -neither here nor in those games.

47 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Nobody wants an unintuitive game where you have to practice for hours and hours and hours so you're not absolutely trash on a DPS meter or boon meter.

And you don't need to because those rotations and performances are not what the game is balanced around. If you complain simply about "people being better than you because they practiced more" then you have no multiplayer game to play.

47 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

You and others can keep deluding yourself that there's some inherent skill to putting in countless hours learning dozens of different 15-25 step rotations and that is what makes a player skilled... but then there's reality. The reality that none of you matter in a game like League of Legends, none of you matter in the raids scene in World of Warcraft. If you were as good as you think, why couldn't you succeed in these games? Why is your only success in Guild Wars 2?

It's a bit funny because you visibly don't know what you're talking about and just try making these terrible blind shots like you just did above again.

Edited February 4 by Sobx.1758

[zeyeti.8347]

22 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Stay away from CMs, join a friendly guild or group and you will be fine.

Op is talking about challenge , and that's your answer ... i don't know if i have to laugh or to cry ... the problem if you add bosses with no timing or not a kind of dps check , ppl can just play safe with 4 healers , that's what we actually do in my guild on the first dhumm statue , this boss is a counter dps check and punish you for doing to much deeps , so we just play with 3-4 healers and this go fine without anybody messing up .

With all the powercreep the game has been trough dps checks on many old bosses are trivial now , it will only take in consideration if you run with some beginners who obviously will be more focused on the survivability and the mechanics of the boss than on the dps part , but with some dedicated players who can reach a decent dps bench it is pretty easy , no raiders whatsoever remind here how to do the Gorseval updraft , neither i , heck i know my guild and i will wipe if this happen and will be staring at each other like dead chickens like wth happened , didn't know gorseval did that ... ty powercreep !

Edited February 4 by zeyeti.8347

[Cuks.8241]

46 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Yes, 4 skill games have "rotations" and combos. But players quickly move beyond that because it's not hard to remember 4 abilities and the handful of ways you can use them. The games become more about positioning, decision making and coordinating with others. That's why 150 million people play League of Legends each month and 150 play GW2 sPvP. Nobody wants an unintuitive game where you have to practice for hours and hours and hours so you're not absolutely trash on a DPS meter or boon meter. You and others can keep deluding yourself that there's some inherent skill to putting in countless hours learning dozens of different 15-25 step rotations and that is what makes a player skilled... but then there's reality. The reality that none of you matter in a game like League of Legends, none of you matter in the raids scene in World of Warcraft. If you were as good as you think, why couldn't you succeed in these games? Why is your only success in Guild Wars 2?

Soccer could add all sorts of stupid rules. You must hop on one foot without the ball, you must tie a hand behind your back. You need to clap 5 times before you take a shot. But they keep it simple. They keep it accessible. And despite being simple, soccer is extremely competitive and I'm nowhere near the level of Messi.

Arena Net needs to ask themselves - should we continue to cater to this extremely small group of self-deluding gamers or should we try to make a sustainable game and game modes?

I think youre a bit too obsessed with games. Noone really cares about being accomplished in video games. And there is really nothing special about raiding in wow and here in gw2. Everyone including their grandmothers played wow at some point and probably cleared some raids. And gw2 raiding is not much different to wows.

And I dont know what rotations have to do with pvp. Pvp is mostly reactionary.

[Leger.3724]

15 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

What? I am so confused on what your point is, and especially how it relates to OP's point. I know I skimmed the thread because I think OP has missed that there are a ton of DPS checks in things like Dragon's End and other metas, but what?

That MMOs are designed around DPS checks and there's no changing that until you fundamentally change combat in MMOs. Of course that's not the only problem in MMOs but it's a big one.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

6 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

That MMOs are designed around DPS checks and there's no changing that until you fundamentally change combat in MMOs. Of course that's not the only problem in MMOs but it's a big one.

...and that's bad? 👀

Weird, of all my problems with MMOs, DPS checks isn't one of them. MMOs are also scarcely the only games with "DPS checks." Ever played RPGs with things like "turn limits"? Those are DPS checks. Turn DPS check to skill check, and you have the Civ games. Even action RPGs can have enrage timers on the bosses or time limits to achieve goals. What kind of changes are you looking for to make MMO combat "better"?

[Sobx.1758]

It's good that there are forms of dps checks in the games like this one, considering otherwise people can load up on defensive stats or set up a few spamming healers and basically afk the content. That's not the goal here though, right?

Edited February 4 by Sobx.1758

[QueenKeriti.5176]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's good that there are forms of dps checks in the games like this one, considering otherwise people can load up on defensive stats or set up a few spamming healers and basically afk the content. That's not the goal here though, right?

You mean the 45 minute KO strikes with 9 heal scourges + a soldier's gear core guardian?

[Astralporing.1957]

21 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

You mean the 45 minute KO strikes with 9 heal scourges + a soldier's gear core guardian?

It would take longer. I've done a few times KO where 6-7 people ended up dead before the first return to boss, and all those took over 20 minutes. Reduce dps to your example (and from the start, not from after first lower platform), and we're talking an hour maybe.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It would take longer. I've done a few times KO where 6-7 people ended up dead before the first return to boss, and all those took over 20 minutes. Reduce dps to your example (and from the start, not from after first lower platform), and we're talking an hour maybe.

True. I was trying to be generous. Maybe people would autoattack at minimum the entire time, since they could ignore mechanics.

[Ashantara.8731]

23 hours ago, uberkingkong.8041 said:

Soo-Wong meta event was really enjoyable when it was released and part of the enjoyment was difficulty and getting and closer and closer, and finally beating it.

The Dragon's End meta is a DPS check as well, as is every content that is on a timer. If you had low DPS, you couldn't succeed in time.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Op is talking about challenge , and that's your answer ... i don't know if i have to laugh or to cry ... the problem if you add bosses with no timing or not a kind of dps check , ppl can just play safe with 4 healers , that's what we actually do in my guild on the first dhumm statue , this boss is a counter dps check and punish you for doing to much deeps , so we just play with 3-4 healers and this go fine without anybody messing up .

I'm getting flashbacks to my 30 minute KO kill that only had 3 healers. 2 healers were second and third highest DPS.

The problem with the "DPS check" complaint in the game is that majority of the content is less than 50% of potential DPS, so, that's already not much. People complained that Mech could do like 20k DPS by just spamming 1 and having the Mech exist, and that's just one of many builds that take no effort to do well with.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I don't think DPS checks or rotations are the problem.  I think what people are saying when they point these out as issues is that they don't like the way many encounters feel static.  You just stack on the boss and belt out your rotation while your supports keep you supplied with stability, aegis, healing, etc. So you can just focus on DPS.

They have a point.  When you ask people what their favorite raid encounters are, I find twin largos reliably sits at or near the top responses.  Yet this is a DPS check.  So why do people like it?  I think its the focus on dodging, movement and positioning that often feels lacking in stack in a pile encounters.