WvW are you supposed to just die???

[Jeydra.4386]

2 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Interesting read. Are you saying uplevels are safe in any group?

The original word wasn't "safe". It was "safer". You are safer in a large group than a small one. Doesn't mean you are safe, but you are safer. 

4 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

If you have ten, then you have a Havoc. A Havoc needs to choice the fight and not be run over. They need to define the engagement and draw what they want in. Zerg busting grows further and further away as boons and anti-boon drift apart so not sure if that is where you are going. 

So, your best bet is to run from them? What happened to "don't hit them head on, lure, flank, hit tail feathers" etc. as you wrote originally then?

It honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, so I'm done.

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You can't do the larger scale stuff if you don't know the basics of the classes,[...]. Start smaller. Go duel others and learn.

3 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Completely disagree. If you're new, start with large-scale stuff.

I don't think there is a universal answer to what is better for a new player. It mainly depends on what their goal is. Starting with zerging is for sure the easier route, but it teaches very little and keeps players forever reliant on others and those "others" might not always be there.

If someone actually wants to get better at the game/combat, there is no way arround small scale PvP and duels. Unfortunately (fair) small scale has been disincentivized more and more, it became harder and the duelling scene has been almost completely destroyed by awful balance. So learning PvP in WvW for a new player is indeed a nearly impossible task and the best way for them would be to go into sPvP (which is in a terrible state) for learning the combat, then transition into WvW later. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Anet might think that pushing players into boonball zergplay makes the game mode more accessible for new players, but the opposite is the case imo, especially for those that actually want to learn the game mode because they like it, instead of thsoe that are just there to casually farm some rewards (and then leave once they got what they want or they realize that PvE is more lucrative anyway).

Edited February 25 by Zyreva.1078

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Completely disagree. If you're new, start with large-scale stuff. After all, if you have 40 people and they have 30, you have a LOT more leeway to make mistakes. Comparatively if you are 1v1, you are toast against anyone who isn't new as well.

#1 priority is to get appropriate stats (I imagine most people start with their PvE gear, and therefore are fully glass).

That's fine if you want to disagree, but have you asked yourself what has the OP learned in 6 months of attempting large-scale stuff?  OP can't name the 12 AoEs trailing a guy, thinks that there's no evade frames when you dodge, and tries to 10v30 opponents.  Large-scale doesn't actually teach you much because it's too large for most players to be able to tell what even is going on, to "see" the fights.  It gets easier to identify what is going on large-scale when you actually take the time to learn the other class animations and effects.  And it isn't all the time someone is playing that they have the numbers on their own side for such fights.

Edited February 25 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Unfortunately (fair) small scale has been disincentivized more and more, it became harder and the duelling scene has been almost completely destroyed by awful balance. So learning PvP in WvW for a new player is indeed a nearly impossible task and the best way for them would be to go into sPvP (which is in a terrible state) for learning the combat, then transition into WvW later. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Good thing we've now got WvW ruleset in guild halls, eh?  The OP can try to hook up with some friends in a so-called safe environment and learn if they are really interested in it.  They should find their local allied roamer and ask them for teaching.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

So, your best bet is to run from them? What happened to "don't hit them head on, lure, flank, hit tail feathers" etc. as you wrote originally then?

Quote

This makes me think you've never tried fighting 10v40. Have you? Would be nice if you can post a before-and-after screenshot of a time when you have 10 players and they have 40, and you somehow kill them.

I think you're just slightly confused, because running is a nuanced topic in high level ZvZ/GVG, and you probably have one version of "running" in your head where as GVG people have different ideas of what running means. I'm going to explain the differences, and it will give you and others some insight into these tactics which will benefit everyone who reads this when they play ZvZ:

Context

The most optimal configuration in WvW is the Ball configuration. In order to maintain a ball configuration, requires synchronization of movement speed and support between players, and this synchronization makes the group slower to move in general. Good groups will be able to maintain high speeds, while staying in a ball configuration and i'll expand on that later. I'll also mention apriori that clouding =/= running. 

Full Retreating

The first thing is that running is almost always tantamount to full wiping because when you run away in full retreat you leave ball configuration and enter line configuration, which is probably the worst kind of configuration you can be in...the enemy will chase you and many of your people will die, and at a certain point there really is no "winning" the fight if you've lost too many people if you decide to fight back again. Line configuration occurs when 1) movement skills and support are staggered (by position) within the group, and 2) people respond to the commanders calls at different times, resulting in further staggering of player positions, and this accelerates the positional differences caused by point 1. 3) Finally folks are hit by a enemy players, keeps them in combat speed, rather than ooc speed, and then finally you are hit by a CC and eventually death as the zerg swallows you.

Fake Retreating

The idea of running away, creates a line configuration (a tail). But in a retreat, your zerg is not the only one that becomes a tail, so does the enemy. the nature of chasing is like the "inverse" version of retreating in that, "a chase" will turn the zerg from a ball to a line configuration for roughly the same reasons where 1) movement buffs, are staggered by position 2) people respond to the commanders calls at different times, leading to further staggering of positions, and further differentials of movement synchronization. organized groups will use this greed to do what's called a "reverse push" which is when the group fakes a retreat, and then reverses. Keep in mind that being in line configuration is equivalent to being in a choke, except worse, because at least in a choke, you can still be in a ball configuration to disperse damage, where as in a line you no longer have dispersal of damage with your team all spread out in this line. 

The way to tell the difference between a full retreat, and a fake retreat (which will inevitably be followed by a reverse push) is that a fake retreat will often not compromise their ball configuration, they will still be a tight ball while in "retreat." This mental game puts the other zerg into a position to enter line configuration, and when the enemy is spaghetti enough, boom reverse push and you collect your bags. 

That's why if you ever see a commander say "Don't chase" its usually for a darn good reason. Most pugs fail to listen to calls and its almost always 99% of the time followed by this reverse push and the wipe of said pugs. I honestly do get a huge laugh at this every time it happens because i will say it like 20 seconds before they do it because exp commanders and gvg players can tell the difference in behavior between an actual retreat and a fake retreat (as mentioned before, looking how balled up the group is running away, and observing how they might be funneling players into a confined choke area, with the so called "retreat").

The same "don't run" command is also for a pretty darn good reason too...like stated above, running away is the same as entering this line configuration which just leads to the death of everybody. A good tag will make the call to run away (full retreat) upon positioning themselves first to minimize the number of potential losses, and potential tail creation they might induce as a result...so for instance a commander that yells "run away" in the middle of the skirmish is a bad commander because most of the people in the fight are not going to immediately respond to the commanders call...it will create a tail and many people will die in that scenario. Where as a good commander will only yell a "run away" command after doing damage to a choke, zerg on the other side, to put as much distance between the zerg and them as possible, and telling your group to stick tight so that when you do full run, everybody is together and not staggered, here is a diagram example of that.

Lastly, if your commander is "too fast" compared to the group, your commander needs to slow down. i've seen this happen with some commanders...either just straight up running without stopping every now and again, or using leap skills and teleports, which is obviously bad because not every build is using a leap or movement skill. If your commander is playing in such a way that creates a tail all the time they will constantly lose, and its worth pointing this out to them. A good commander will take micro pauses every now and again.

Havoc

Havoc groups, take advantage of these tactics...naturally so, because they have less numbers than the enemy. Although Havocs don't have the numbers to reverse push, they can force zergs into greed mode for them to chase by "fake retreating"...allowing another force on the other side to eat their tail...or vise versa where the havoc eats the tail. This is definitely what Grimm is talking about in terms of playing mind games with the enemy to get them to behave in a way that disadvantages themselves, like entering line configuration. Keep in mind as well, that doing lots of AOE damage and preassure from a distance, is alsoa way to invoke commanders to take action and move...so HAVOC groups have many tools in the tool box to get zergs to react and behave in a way that can eventually lead to bags.

What Grimm is also alluding to here is that havoc and outnumbered fighting is a dying art because the game has made it harder and harder over time, for smaller groups of players to make large contributions to fights where small numbers can defeat larger numbers...that includes mounts (which makes it easier for new players to catch up to their zerg ooc), balance, target cap changes and the list goes on. 

Final Tip

How to chase without exposing a greed tail.

Usually a good commander, can read a fight a few moments before the next decision is made by the opposing zerg. If your commander runs forward (or just gives the command in coms) to run to an enemy portal or tower, he is preemptively compromising the escape route of the enemy zerg. When the zerg runs away, usually back to an objective that they own, the chase you would have done, has "already happened" and your tail, is ahead of the enemy zerg in some sense. Usually these commands will happen shortly after a sufficient amount of enemy downs are wiped out.

I hope this post was helpful in not just addressing this confusion you guys were having, but also in putting out generally good information about higher level tactics in the game mode. Feel free to add on to it. Cheers.

Edited February 25 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[XenesisII.1540]

12 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Completely disagree. If you're new, start with large-scale stuff. After all, if you have 40 people and they have 30, you have a LOT more leeway to make mistakes.

Only if you figure out what the mistakes are and bother to learn from them.

If you have a guild or commander that properly teaches you the ropes then sure it's fine to start in a zerg.

But most pugs don't know any better, they get told to stay on tag for instructions, or worst yet they just run along zergs without joining thinking they're safe and then get one pushed, there are many commanders that also make a lot of basic mistakes and don't learn from it, or don't get called out on it. There's a lot of bad guilds that zerg around in wvw, they carry 30-40 with them and still get one pushed because of very basic positional errors, no awareness, or bad timing. I've seen these guilds trying to do the chinese gvg and just sit in one spot to survive, let the boons and heals carry them, 9/10 times they die on that spot. They don't learn from mistakes, but at least they're giving joy to everyone else handing their bags over.

When you play in a zerg you're expected to play on a meta class in a certain way, while the commander moves for you, and everyone else provides the rest of the defenses you need. When you roam or small group you have to rely on yourself more and everything your class has to survive. The most important thing to do is learn your class and what it can do for all situations.

Yeah roaming can be get harsh these days with certain specs being op in that aspect, or roaming gank groups, but that has existed to some extent for the life of gw2, you still need to learn how to deal with that unless you plan on zerging 100% of your time in wvw.

 

11 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol. I have a number of replies here. I could ask others from the peanut gallery on whether this ever happens. I will save them this bias and hope they laugh with me and say yes I make bad calls on a regular basis.

Sometimes he solo jumps into 40, sometimes I pull the 40 to him. /throw popcorn at Grimmy. 🍿🤭

Edited February 25 by XenesisII.1540

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

The original word wasn't "safe". It was "safer". You are safer in a large group than a small one. Doesn't mean you are safe, but you are safer. 

A guild tag might use uplevels as bait, have seen that and experienced that. An uplevel group can stay near a tag but move on their own and reduce their risks though some will still target them. I post this since on the surface your answer does sound good on paper but I wouldn't want a new players that might be trying WvW as an uplevel not to know the risks and consider additional points and or tactics. No

7 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

So, your best bet is to run from them?

This comes down to context and situational issues. 

7 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

What happened to "don't hit them head on, lure, flank, hit tail feathers" etc. as you wrote originally then?

It honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, so I'm done.

The above action statement is for a group of max level players versus a larger group. If you have a Havoc versus a Warband or Zerg. If the Havoc isn't a comped group then you need to bait them around and spread them out to you so can hit them. You need to use guerrilla tactics. A tag that chases is going to be wasting time of its group so they are going to look to pin you down and take you out. Your job is to run them around till some of their members squirrel and chase while the tag keeps the rest focused and moving along and then you work on their numbers that broke off. So yes and yes, it is some running and then some chasing. Sorry I am bad at just giving yes or no answers since a lot of the time the answer is depends. And sometimes there are times to die if it means holding till backup can arrive. To the original OP smaller groups can impact larger ones but you need to be mindful on how to do that. If you are just defending smaller versus larger, again that is another situational issue and answers vary.  Do you have siege in place to try and hold? Should you just burn all the supply that is there to slow the momentum of the larger group?  In defense hitting the tailfeathers is quite often an option for a smaller group. So again mileage varies.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I don't think there is a universal answer to what is better for a new player. It mainly depends on what their goal is. Starting with zerging is for sure the easier route, but it teaches very little and keeps players forever reliant on others and those "others" might not always be there.

If someone actually wants to get better at the game/combat, there is no way arround small scale PvP and duels. Unfortunately (fair) small scale has been disincentivized more and more, it became harder and the duelling scene has been almost completely destroyed by awful balance. So learning PvP in WvW for a new player is indeed a nearly impossible task and the best way for them would be to go into sPvP (which is in a terrible state) for learning the combat, then transition into WvW later. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Anet might think that pushing players into boonball zergplay makes the game mode more accessible for new players, but the opposite is the case imo, especially for those that actually want to learn the game mode because they like it, instead of thsoe that are just there to casually farm some rewards (and then leave once they got what they want or they realize that PvE is more lucrative anyway).

Agree.

Dueling or at least sPvP will help new players in their rotations and get them used to 1v2, 1v3s and better awareness of when to stay and when to go. 

Zerging also leads to tag dependency. Tag dependency is made worse when a group isn't on voice together. But at least while in Comms new players might get more info on why something is being done so that they might have less tag dependency when not on tag since they know the why. Of course that depends if the tag is long winded and does explain the why of what they are doing as they go. Like the forums, I am a rambler personally. 

I recommend new players to use voice to get more out of learning the mode. Which some might find funny since I am usually not on a public voice if I do join another squad since I am already on my guild voice bantering with others in various games and found at two or more active voice channels can be an issues. "Deploy at west wall, three cats our zerg inc to bay open walls hills for them once they finish bay." "Wait what who is this we are at bay." "Ops sorry MT."

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Just wanting to point out that skills flashing on the hotbar but not going off is not an l2p issue, it is really annoying and I experience it in heavier fights. Also experienced it way back when the Karka invasion happened. The server can't keep up and your skill casts never materialize. Bit of a bummer when you're counting on evade frames.

[red.9862]

10 v 60 is very bad odds, however there are a few things you can do:

1. Join a WvW guild and inform them about the situation, they might come and help.
2. Use /team chat, there's many people that are just sitting in Bastion that can see those messages, not to mention other WvW maps. Always include who is attacking (red/green/blue), where and numbers (an aprox is good enough). If there's a commander in any other map you may be asked to pull EWP (Emergency Waypoint) to let people teleport instantly and defend.
3. Try to delay them as much as you can, build ballistas, disable their siege, build a catapult behind the door if they're using rams, if you push the people on the rams it delays them a little. Delaying them for 30s or more could save the point, every second they're outside counts.
4. Do not engage directly if you do not have the numbers.
5. Don't go kamikaze with golems against them, they'll just burn you down.
6. Avoid using arrow carts on huge groups, they will most likely not get any damage, unless it's a small group you can target and you know they have little sustain. For example, if you can target just the people manning the rams, you have a shot.
7. Shield generators are huge both when attacking and defending.
8. As last resort, if you know people are coming to help defend and you're out of options try delaying the enemy by repairing, might delay them a little. But this also means the point you're at will have less and less supply to build a proper defense, which can be counterproductive.
9. If there's no response from people, just leave, try to keep eyes on the zerg and keep your map informed.
10. Commanders prioritize higher tier captured points than "paper", so they might not defend paper if the enemy is attacking a tier 2 or 3 garrison or smc for example.

WvW is better when you have a team of people that are working together to capture and defend objectives, it's not intended for solo play unless you're roaming, killing other roamers, capturing camps, sentries, etc that might help your team by cutting their constant supply and upgrades.

Edited February 26 by red.9862

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, red.9862 said:

1.  
2.  
3.  
4.  
5.  
6. Avoid using arrow carts on huge groups, they will most likely not get any damage, unless it's a small group you can target and you know they have little sustain. For example, if you can target just the people manning the rams, you have a shot.

I think avoid is the wrong wording. It's useless if you're using like 1-2 acs on a huge boon ball group damage wise, maybe 3-4 might start to tickle them. But it still removes aegis from them at the very least, and it hits up to 50 targets. So using it while you have your own group(hopefully closer to their numbers) engaging them would be the useful difference. Just don't depend on it being the thing to scare off a group from an objective.

[red.9862]

8 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I think avoid is the wrong wording. It's useless if you're using like 1-2 acs on a huge boon ball group damage wise, maybe 3-4 might start to tickle them. But it still removes aegis from them at the very least, and it hits up to 50 targets. So using it while you have your own group(hopefully closer to their numbers) engaging them would be the useful difference. Just don't depend on it being the thing to scare off a group from an objective.

Yeah there are some cases where arrow carts are good, but not when it's 1-2 against a zerg, in the case of catas hitting walls if they're far enough and you can target them without being pulled i'd suggest a ballista instead, take out their siege and we good :> in some cases even mortar can do more against siege than arrow carts, but it also has its disadvantages, in the end everything is situational and the team has to adapt to what the enemy is throwing at them.

The most important thing to do when it's low numbers defending, is take down the attackers siege and then maybe cut their supply if possible (2nd small group). For example when people attack Bay or Hills, if you capture the camps you're delaying them for at least 4 minutes while RI is active.

Without supply, the enemy can't do much, but again, it all depends on the situation, but yes there are things people can do when they're outnumbered.

[Bunny.9834]

Answer: Yes. 

This has been the direction they want. Infinite CCs and boons. 

They've nerfed a lot of counterpart to blob control like certain damage (Meteor Shower, Sword of Justice, Null Field and other anti boon skills). 

 

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

-Fights a dude much bigger than him. 

-Gets put into the ground. 

-Blames not himself. 

A Classic. 

Edited February 26 by DanAlcedo.3281

[prototypedragon.1406]

In the old days years ago defending was a lot easier especially in southwest tower. On the alpine maps. If you have 7 or 8 people you could setup 6 guild arrowcarts and have 2 guardians run line of warding and sanctuary to hold back a entire zerg back then of 50 plus or more by creating a deathzone on the bottom of the stairs. Given back then there were no mounts and not as much access to stability. But zerglings complained about it since they wouldn't wait 10 seconds for the skills to end or to dodge through the arrowcarts fire ( or bait the use of the skills by doing a false push 🤷‍♂️) back then boons also were not a requirement for skill. More of a slight addition.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

In the old days years ago defending was a lot easier especially in southwest tower. On the alpine maps. If you have 7 or 8 people you could setup 6 guild arrowcarts and have 2 guardians run line of warding and sanctuary to hold back a entire zerg back then of 50 plus or more by creating a deathzone on the bottom of the stairs. Given back then there were no mounts and not as much access to stability. But zerglings complained about it since they wouldn't wait 10 seconds for the skills to end or to dodge through the arrowcarts fire ( or bait the use of the skills by doing a false push 🤷‍♂️) back then boons also were not a requirement for skill. More of a slight addition.

Yeah, now imagine when it was off prime and the people attacking the tower was less than 10 people instead yet defenders still built 6 arrowcarts . 

Fun gameplay. Surely we need it back again. And double the ram/cata cost while you are at it, zerglings have tons of supplies right?

[prototypedragon.1406]

19 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah, now imagine when it was off prime and the people attacking the tower was less than 10 people instead yet defenders still built 6 arrowcarts . 

Fun gameplay. Surely we need it back again. And double the ram/cata cost while you are at it, zerglings have tons of supplies right?

I mean they could just build a trebuchet to take out the arrowcarts right🤯? last I checked most towers have camps nearby to carry supply from?  Even quicker with the handy dandy warclaw🤔. And at least then there was a incentive to defend. And if a zerg dies to arrowcarts it's not on the zerg but the commander for making the decision to run into AOE without clearing siege? Isn't world versus world technically guild versus guild hence the name of the game? ( Granted wvw is split amongst various levels of game play zerging, roaming, scouting, havoc, f2p accounts pulling tactivators  on opposing teams side)Not to bash on roaming but I mean at least back then in terms of defending it has to be better then this boonball mess unless you counter boonball with equal boonball the roamers still shall get ran over anyway so it's not like it makes any difference still while against greater numbers your better off roleplaying a tower guard then actually fighting with no ability to counter or at least being able hold your ground for back up to arrive if it ever does?

[Jeydra.4386]

20 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I think you're just slightly confused, because running is a nuanced topic in high level ZvZ/GVG, and you probably have one version of "running" in your head where as GVG people have different ideas of what running means. I'm going to explain the differences, and it will give you and others some insight into these tactics which will benefit everyone who reads this when they play ZvZ

You might be in the wrong thread. High level ZvZ or GvG is not a factor, because OP specified "Me and about 10 other people are up against 45-60 people". 

 

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:14 AM, Andy.5981 said:

Take your group of 10 and attack a target held by an enemy on the opposite side of the map to the enemy Zerg. Don't bother defending, it isnt worth it. Don't worry about winning or losing since it has no consequence. Just go round and round the map in circles capturing stuff like everyone else does. That's what the game mode has become sadly.

Well there is another option when dealing with those odds.  The trick is to focus on killing their supplies and siege,  not the players.  A lot of times they'll just pull off if they can't siege. Though if they manage to breach anyway, stripping and denying them supplies can break their momentum. Buying time to up defenses elsewhere. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

You might be in the wrong thread. High level ZvZ or GvG is not a factor, because OP specified "Me and about 10 other people are up against 45-60 people". 

 

Naa... this is the right place bro. I was responding to you and Grimm specifically, not the OP. But OP can take the advise here and probably learn a lot from it.

Anyway, maybe this is one of those "you need to see it to believe it" kind of things. Back in the day, the scene would get off on how small their force needed to be to wipe out bigger forces. It's a clear show of skill in a game mode that's defined by numbers of people you get me?

The idea of running away just happened to get weaponized, and so now theirs a skill gap in terms of talking about what it means for a force to run away.

Watch the first clip here bro (but you can probably watch all of them and see common behavior)

I've ran with Indo a few times, fought VR back in the day, and ran with BOZ last night as a pug. VR was pretty well known for doing 10v80's way back, and their videos is what got me interested in gvg-level fighting tactics and joining fight guilds.

Anyway just notice the behaviour..."running away up this hill" looks all very innocent, nooby and enticing to a que blob for a chase. But its all ploy, to manipulate the enemy into roleplaying a string of spaghetti, so that when the reverse happens, its bag time.

Point is that "running away" is a nuanced topic, and the kind of running away you might be thinking of is "run away because you have no chance" which could be a logical thing for a pug...but Havoc groups and GVG players (just knowledgeable players familiar with organized tactics) see running away as a nuanced battle tactic and use it to their advantage. The OP is much better off understanding now, that running away in full retreat, of his own autonomy, especially while in a group where the commander tells you otherwise, is bad gameplay. 

Edited February 26 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

You might be in the wrong thread. High level ZvZ or GvG is not a factor, because OP specified "Me and about 10 other people are up against 45-60 people". 

 

What a spectacular way to completely miss the point of that informative post, as if the tactic of kiting is only reserved to GvG. I better not catch you "running" in WvW proper at all. No real WvW player "runs", just dive headlong into an enemy zerg, die, and don't bait anyone. /sarcasm

Edited February 26 by Chaba.5410

[Jeydra.4386]

22 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Naa... this is the right place bro. I was responding to you and Grimm specifically, not the OP. But OP can take the advise here and probably learn a lot from it.

Then this is derailing OP's thread, so I won't be responding further either.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

27 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Then this is derailing OP's thread, so I won't be responding further either.

You meant to say "i don't agree with you therefor you are derailing the thread"

sorry but i'm not gonna tell the OP to run away from the fight because there is nothing he can do, because 1) its simply not true. 2) running away is how you die most of the time anyway and 3) not to mention how you as a runner, force other people into dieing (cause although I didn't mention this explicitly, running away means you are taking away whatever support you were giving to someone that might have helped them fight, or run away too. This is the cause of the original issue of running away that I mentioned in my initial response about staggered movement and support.)

You asked whether Grimm ever did 10 v 60's. There are many people (specifically exp gvg groups, and havocs who specialize in it) who do and have done 10 v 60's (I've only ever really done 15 v 30, 40 max). So you asked, someone delivered.

Edited February 26 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Mabi black.1824]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:26 AM, Quasidivine.2591 said:

Lastly I have been doing WvW for about 6 months

That is the information I want to start with. First of all I want to say welcome to this game mode. And then I want to tell you what it was for me in the first few months of WVW. I was simply curious to see other players, able to stay in the fight for dozens and dozens of minutes kill the enemy and not die. players using crazy explosions , other infinite conditions ect ect. You just have to be curious and observe others and have patience to learn.

If others do it, it means you can do it too. I have tried and retried hundreds of constructions, and I continue to experiment to this day. You have to find your own buildings, your own classes, what makes you feel comfortable. Because we're all real players, so we're all different. The construction that works on me is not obvious that it works on you. Always look for the 'right' conditions for you, in relation to what you are looking for, what you are learning to what pique your interest. One day in a few years, you may deliberately look for 10vs40. but not today. WVW is a very nice mode, very interesting and I wish you a lot of fun.

P.S. Don't forget to find a good group of friends, the ones who play in relaxed mode were the best for me. They must not be missing in WVW.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You meant to say "i don't agree with you therefor you are derailing the thread"

I thought your post was well done and great information for new players like the OP. You even included links to images that illustrated the concept you were trying to teach.

Edited February 26 by Chaba.5410