WvW are you supposed to just die???

[Quasidivine.2591]

So i am trying WvW, and certainly NOT for the first time. Me and about  10 other people are up against 45-60 people. Against these odds there is very little we can do except try and hold on. During our defense I naturally go to defend. Except nothing works. I try to heal, and I get cancelled before I can heal. I try to dodge, vindicator style, and I get hit before i can get off the ground. On the few times I do get off the ground I get hit midair and my move is cancelled. I really want to go out there and defend i do...but nothing works. AOE's dot the land, I see one guy trail aoe's behind him...12 in all. Which then brings up another point I have made earlier. AOES are too OP. They get stacked 30 strong and there is 0 defense. We need aoe counters. Without them we do not stand a chance. None of my moves will work because the dmg is so intense I am dead before any of them go off.  I want to fight I really do, but how can I when none of my moves work? Players need something to fight back with. Lastly I have been doing WvW for about 6 months now..My team has never won. Not once. It always seems to be the same people swarming our bases. I mean do you have some kind of ranking system so newer players are not completely overwhelmed by expert assassin style old players? I get you stay with a group, you try and zerg hit and run style tactics. But that doesn't work when A) its all aoe's or B) you out numbered 3:1. At the very least gives us that movement when we dodge that gives a moment of invincibility. Thieves and other teleporters get it when they use their moves. so why don't the manual dodgers? Now if people have some friendly wisdom and insight, I would love to hear it. If you are the same 6 people that trash all my other posts you can kindly find yourself  in Kamodo's Dungeon thank you very much. I know it will be tempting for some of you to just accuse me of lying or whining or whatever story you want to tell yourselves, but I ask that you resist that urge and resort to useful, helpful advice instead. I would prefer a positive feedback and if you can't manage that, kindly move along.

[Ariurotl.3718]

Positive feedback: you're not really describing any bugs.

[Quasidivine.2591]

My dodge not working is a bug. It seems that it would be quite useful to have but as I said, I get taken out of my dodge. In addition my healing doesn't work. I push the button to heal. It makes like it is going to be used, then nothing happens...I can push the button 4 or 5 times before it kicks in, IF it kicks in at all.

 

Edited February 24 by Quasidivine.2591
More details

[Parasite.5389]

Skill issues are not bugs

i don't mean that in a negative way, but everything you've described is a case of player skill, and not a fundimental fault with the games code that needs to be fixed

Edit: post was moved from Bug reports

Edited February 24 by Parasite.5389

[Andy.5981]

2 hours ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

but I ask that you resist that urge and resort to useful, helpful advice instead. I would prefer a positive feedback and if you can't manage that, kindly move along.

Don't put 10 people up against 45-60. It's just not worth it. Irrespective of your skill levels you will all die due to the bigger group having more boons and damage spells.

Take your group of 10 and attack a target held by an enemy on the opposite side of the map to the enemy Zerg. Don't bother defending, it isnt worth it. Don't worry about winning or losing since it has no consequence. Just go round and round the map in circles capturing stuff like everyone else does. That's what the game mode has become sadly.

Edited February 24 by Andy.5981

[Teknomancer.4895]

2 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

Take your group of 10 and attack a target held by an enemy on the opposite side of the map to the enemy Zerg. Don't bother defending, it isnt worth it. Don't worry about winning or losing since it has no consequence.

OP, this right here is the answer. Defending is a fool's errand; you get nothing for it therefore no one does it. Try-hard winning and holding objectives is largely pointless; you get participation for fighting enemy players/NPCs and only from fighting enemy players/NPCs. If you're doing literally anything else in WvW it's a waste of time, effort and probably supply.

Sounds like you got smacked around because you didn't have any stability or stunbreaks handy, and at this point in the meta if you don't have a source of stability don't even bother entering the Mists.

[Chaba.5410]

Know your class
Know what the skills and traits do (find some players to duel in a friendly manner)
Learn the other classes and what their skills do (most players do this by playing that other class)
Learn the animations (what 12 AoEs trailing someone does)
Learn to read your buff bar and target's buff bar
Stay out of the red circles
Watch your mini-map and don't get outnumbered

Edited February 24 by Chaba.5410

[devastoscz.9851]

10 v 45+ is a fool's errand. You're the one putting yourself in that position. Even the best fighting groups that have played together for years cannot win those odds, so you getting your 10 man in there is just... nonsensical. You will get stripped, you will get CC'd and you will die. Doesn't matter how many times you press your buttons.

Tips for surviving in a 10 man group against unfavorable (not impossible) odds
• Have a proper comp, with dedicated builds for support, stability and dps.
• Learn to position your group to lure enemies into chokes or difficult terrain
• Learn to lure enemy damage and have their skills go on cooldown
• Identify proper time windows of attack and COORDINATE your damage.

Obviously, this is easier said than done, and it tends to require experienced leadership and disciplined group members.

Don't take this the wrong way, but at 6 months in WvW, you're the equivalent of a toddler at best. Pick your fights better. With enough playtime you'll learn which groups you can fight evenly and outnumbered and which groups you can't in comparison to your group's skill level.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

Edit: post was moved from Bug reports

 

10 hours ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

So i am trying WvW, and certainly NOT for the first time. Me and about  10 other people are up against 45-60 people. Against these odds there is very little we can do except try and hold on. During our defense I naturally go to defend. Except nothing works. I try to heal, and I get cancelled before I can heal. I try to dodge, vindicator style, and I get hit before i can get off the ground. On the few times I do get off the ground I get hit midair and my move is cancelled. I really want to go out there and defend i do...but nothing works. AOE's dot the land, I see one guy trail aoe's behind him...12 in all. Which then brings up another point I have made earlier. AOES are too OP. They get stacked 30 strong and there is 0 defense. We need aoe counters. Without them we do not stand a chance. None of my moves will work because the dmg is so intense I am dead before any of them go off.  I want to fight I really do, but how can I when none of my moves work? Players need something to fight back with. Lastly I have been doing WvW for about 6 months now..My team has never won. Not once. It always seems to be the same people swarming our bases. I mean do you have some kind of ranking system so newer players are not completely overwhelmed by expert assassin style old players? I get you stay with a group, you try and zerg hit and run style tactics. But that doesn't work when A) its all aoe's or B) you out numbered 3:1. At the very least gives us that movement when we dodge that gives a moment of invincibility. Thieves and other teleporters get it when they use their moves. so why don't the manual dodgers? Now if people have some friendly wisdom and insight, I would love to hear it. If you are the same 6 people that trash all my other posts you can kindly find yourself  in Kamodo's Dungeon thank you very much. I know it will be tempting for some of you to just accuse me of lying or whining or whatever story you want to tell yourselves, but I ask that you resist that urge and resort to useful, helpful advice instead. I would prefer a positive feedback and if you can't manage that, kindly move along.

Did you post this in bugs subforum originally?

[XenesisII.1540]

12 hours ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

So i am trying WvW, and certainly NOT for the first time. Me and about  10 other people are up against 45-60 people. Against these odds there is very little we can do except try and hold on.

During our defense I naturally go to defend. Except nothing works. I try to heal, and I get cancelled before I can heal. I try to dodge, vindicator style, and I get hit before i can get off the ground. On the few times I do get off the ground I get hit midair and my move is cancelled. I really want to go out there and defend i do...but nothing works. AOE's dot the land, I see one guy trail aoe's behind him...12 in all.

Which then brings up another point I have made earlier. AOES are too OP. They get stacked 30 strong and there is 0 defense. We need aoe counters. Without them we do not stand a chance. None of my moves will work because the dmg is so intense I am dead before any of them go off.  I want to fight I really do, but how can I when none of my moves work? Players need something to fight back with.

Lastly I have been doing WvW for about 6 months now..My team has never won. Not once. It always seems to be the same people swarming our bases. I mean do you have some kind of ranking system so newer players are not completely overwhelmed by expert assassin style old players? I get you stay with a group, you try and zerg hit and run style tactics. But that doesn't work when A) its all aoe's or B) you out numbered 3:1. At the very least gives us that movement when we dodge that gives a moment of invincibility. Thieves and other teleporters get it when they use their moves. so why don't the manual dodgers?

Now if people have some friendly wisdom and insight, I would love to hear it. If you are the same 6 people that trash all my other posts you can kindly find yourself  in Kamodo's Dungeon thank you very much. I know it will be tempting for some of you to just accuse me of lying or whining or whatever story you want to tell yourselves, but I ask that you resist that urge and resort to useful, helpful advice instead. I would prefer a positive feedback and if you can't manage that, kindly move along.

1. Don't try to 10v45-60, especially an organized ball, you have no shot, avoid them and do something else on your current map, or move to a quieter map. The game favors bigger numbers and double teams, avoid it when you can if you don't have equal numbers. Especially if you're on a melee build unless you enjoy kamikaze game style.

2. Get stability. If you are not running in a group that provides it through a guardian of some sort then run your own which you have with dwarf inspiring reinforcement.

3. Don't stand in aoes, if you can't avoid it try not to stand in the middle of them as the damage is pulsed from the middle to the outer edges, so it hits middle targets first, so if you're running through a choke of aoes, don't just run down the middle of it willynilly, unless you're running as a blob too so others soak up the damage. Avoid, dodge, protection, stability, healing, these are the counters to aoes. Don't stand in front of the train running at you, positioning is important, watch the group and where they are heading and move. If you are clouding them then be at the sides or back of that blob, not in front where they offload their aoes. If you are on an organized tag then you have no choice but to be on them, you can blame them for the bad positioning then.

4. There is no ranking system for players, this isn't spvp, you get thrown in with the sharks from day one, it's on you to learn a proper build and how to use it for any given situation, a lot of it comes down to learning from experiencing. The only ranks are of your servers weekly performance, if you're losing all the time that means you're stuck in the last tier, if you're face a same team every time that means it's the 2nd place team, you both can't beat the other team that's rotating tiers above you. You will just have to push on until the next relink, (which is next week), and hope you get a better link for better performance the next four weeks.

You need to learn what you can take on and what to avoid, run in groups if you need to, and always have certain skills on hand, stun break, stability, and mobility, if you can. Learn to use the defensive side of your build until it's muscle memory, when you get caught in CC that you need to get out of immediately, know what your instant go to number 1 or 2 stun breaks are at the very least. Have a solo roam build, and a zerg build on hand, the solo roam build would be to help you get from point a to point b on your own load it with defenses to avoid combat, or a capable build to 1v1 with.

Wvw can be a harsh place to play in, but it gets easier when you learn the ins and outs of situations and combat and better preparation.

Edited February 24 by XenesisII.1540

[Kate.3679]

They have 60 people and you have 10. If you don't die instantly then there's something overpowered about your build.

[ArchonWing.9480]

In general , the dodge function is used to avoid the red circles, not to go into them.

And nothing can really compensate for the experience gap. A few months is nothing when people have been playing the game for years, so you just have to try and learn.

And sometimes you don't know stuff even after years. Recently I picked Rev up again and I didn't remember what the stunbreaks were. So like three people would be like ganking me and I would be reading the tooltips to see which one was my stunbreak, and I eventually found it to survive. That's not a problem with the game. The problem is none of us knew what we were doing. (both me and the enemy)

Also yea you shouldn't fight 60 people head on. You mentioned the hit and run tactics, but you should also note the run part.

Edited February 24 by ArchonWing.9480

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Quote

We need aoe counters

Long time ago, retaliation was an AOE counter mechanic. It's no longer in the game.

Then again retaliation wasn't super healthy...because it self-counters itself when it comes to fighting zergs. You see, you need to kill the other zerg, with AOE damage. If everyone has old retaliation, and everyone is getting punished for using AOE's, then it gets harder to kill zergs. I still think a mechanic like it should exist, but it needs to be slightly better designed. They turned Retaliation into something more streamlined called Resolution 2 years ago; the same effect as Protection but for conditions. 

Quote

None of my moves will work because the dmg is so intense I am dead before any of them go off.  I want to fight I really do, but how can I when none of my moves work?

Could be one of three things:

1) Skill lag

2) Immobilization or stun

3) You just got clapped by 60 people in a time frame faster than (the server or brain) can respond. 

In order to understand the nature of the problem you might be experiencing, you'd have to share a video for us to see what happened. 

 

Edited February 24 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Quasidivine.2591]

Thank you everyone for your informative posts. I can agree with not charging headlong, but it as many of you have pointed out,  it makes defending pointless. If there is no need to defend it really defeats the point of WvW and has turned this into capture the flag keg toss edition. I think an Aoe counter is a good idea, but it wouldn't work on your own team..that is silly. Also I am picturing something like the vindicator dodge removing a single Aoe, with help from others it would be more effective. Lastly I have  played street fighter for decades now. Most people think to get good you go up against the hardest difficulty and learn the hard way. I can tell you the opposite is true. Playing on the easiest difficulty give you time to learn and master and observe. Walking out and getting insta killed teaches you that you died. The learning curve is soo steep that it really isn't worth it.  If they wanted to reach a wider audience to play WvW, they have really missed the mark. That said, I was the first to see that 6 months is not a lot compared to 12 year players, nor would I expect it to be, that said not having ranked combat makes for a style of game play where only the best of the best win, get a lot of rewards and everyone else can pretty much eff off? Like the title says, Areanet pretty much just tells you DIE when it comes to WvW and being new.

[voltaicbore.8012]

14 minutes ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

The learning curve is soo steep that it really isn't worth it.

GW2's competitive modes suffer deeply from this, yes. Ironically WvW was supposed to be the "safer" competitive mode, because unlike 5v5 in sPvP, there was supposed to be less individual pressure when you run in a massive WvW group. But if you happen to be outnumbered (which of course happens all the time, especially to a new player), there's precious little to learn from getting curbstomped. 

Only lessons: don't defend, and run from any uneven matchup.

[Zyreva.1078]

22 minutes ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

it makes defending pointless.

Being outnumbered has nothing to do with defending. Ever tried attacking something 10 vs 50? That's gonna go even worse. Does that make attacking pointless? Hardly.

22 minutes ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

I think an Aoe counter is a good idea

There are more than enough counters to dmg and that includes aoe. Also in oder to defeat larger numbers you'd need stronger aoe, not weaker aoe (eg. larger/no offensive aoe caps). You won't ever poke a zerg to death with single target dmg. So what do you actually want?

4 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Only lessons: don't defend, and run from any uneven matchup.

And stay a clueless noob forever. Great advice if that's your goal.

Edited February 25 by Zyreva.1078

[XenesisII.1540]

3 hours ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

Thank you everyone for your informative posts. I can agree with not charging headlong, but it as many of you have pointed out,  it makes defending pointless. If there is no need to defend it really defeats the point of WvW and has turned this into capture the flag keg toss edition. I think an Aoe counter is a good idea, but it wouldn't work on your own team..that is silly.

Also I am picturing something like the vindicator dodge removing a single Aoe, with help from others it would be more effective. Lastly I have  played street fighter for decades now. Most people think to get good you go up against the hardest difficulty and learn the hard way. I can tell you the opposite is true. Playing on the easiest difficulty give you time to learn and master and observe. Walking out and getting insta killed teaches you that you died. The learning curve is soo steep that it really isn't worth it. 

If they wanted to reach a wider audience to play WvW, they have really missed the mark. That said, I was the first to see that 6 months is not a lot compared to 12 year players, nor would I expect it to be, that said not having ranked combat makes for a style of game play where only the best of the best win, get a lot of rewards and everyone else can pretty much eff off? Like the title says, Areanet pretty much just tells you DIE when it comes to WvW and being new.

You can still defend, you just have to be smart about it. If you're defending an objective, 10 jumping into 50 doesn't make any sense, but destroying their siege can delay and even get them to move on if they don't have supply. You just have to play smarter. You want to start slower? then pick your fights, blob v blob is the last place you go to learn to fight. You need to learn how to be defensive, and you get the best experience of that in roaming or small group fights first.

That said, there is a wide gap between pug and organized level of groups, we've been over this many times in the forums with the issue of boon balls, but anet doesn't really care, they just keep boosting the blob. If you don't have a blob of your own, ignore them and give no content or rewards.

Also whatever counters you come up with... the organized will make full use of them, so it might seem like a good idea for you to be erasing aoes with your dodge, but they will do the same thing making it even harder to kill them... think about it.

Edited February 25 by XenesisII.1540

[Jeydra.4386]

If you're 10v40, the best thing to do is go play another game mode. If you insist on playing WvW, then don't bother defending, go roam instead.

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And stay a clueless noob forever. Great advice if that's your goal.

No, at 10v40 odds it's pointless to play. At 30v40, sure you can give it a go. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

Walking out and getting insta killed teaches you that you died. The learning curve is soo steep that it really isn't worth it.  If they wanted to reach a wider audience to play WvW, they have really missed the mark.

Switch over to sPvP for a bit.  If you turn chat off and observe, it's the same as SF--you will learn mechanics far better there as it's 70% of the mode to fight other players and not ~20% that WvW is.  

Reason people say WvW is 'endgame' is that you are expected to know every game mechanic, and all of them are busted because it uses PvE modifiers (for the most part) in a competitive environment.  You won't learn anything on your own and you will die super fast without knowing why because 40 people, a 5 man coord gank group, or two thieves will wreck your day and nothing you can do without that 12 years of experience.  

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Quasidivine.2591 said:

Playing on the easiest difficulty give you time to learn and master and observe. Walking out and getting insta killed teaches you that you died. The learning curve is soo steep that it really isn't worth it. 

Which is exactly why I gave the advice I did. You can't do the larger scale stuff if you don't know the basics of the classes, if you don't know what it means when someone has a trail of small aoe behind them. Start smaller. Go duel others and learn.

Edited February 25 by Chaba.5410

[Jeydra.4386]

Completely disagree. If you're new, start with large-scale stuff. After all, if you have 40 people and they have 30, you have a LOT more leeway to make mistakes. Comparatively if you are 1v1, you are toast against anyone who isn't new as well.

#1 priority is to get appropriate stats (I imagine most people start with their PvE gear, and therefore are fully glass).

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

GW2's competitive modes suffer deeply from this, yes. Ironically WvW was supposed to be the "safer" competitive mode

WvW was to be safer? Did you mix this line? sPvP has always been a safer mode. Not sure if this a typo or something else.

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

, because unlike 5v5 in sPvP, there was supposed to be less individual pressure when you run in a massive WvW group.

Uplevels were never safer in a big group.

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

But if you happen to be outnumbered (which of course happens all the time, especially to a new player), there's precious little to learn from getting curbstomped. 

Disagree. All defeats offer information on how to do differently. Outnumbered teaches Roamers and Havocs on to do better. Have a couple of tie-shirts. 

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Only lessons: don't defend, and run from any uneven matchup.

Disagree. Look for their pattern, don't hit them head on, lure, flank, hit tail feathers. Die when needed and don't when its a waste. Bait, lure, lead them to their fall. I have seen many run  from a few. Momentum is a big part of the game. The time to pressure and drive. Once you get a side thinking of just run you have more power to push. You have to balance this with players on your side just saying or yelling run. That doesn't help any tag looking to push. When non-tagged players yell run, they aren't helping their side they are just being drama lamas and second guessing the current tags move and add more chaos to the interaction. 

Havocs can spoof this and use it against larger groups if they are ok with it failing. Happens quite a lot. Larger forces can be fooled and happens a lot. so again I would discourage players from trying. 

[Jeydra.4386]

7 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Uplevels were never safer in a big group.

Are you seriously suggesting uplevels are safer in a small group?

8 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Disagree. Look for their pattern, don't hit them head on, lure, flank, hit tail feathers. Die when needed and don't when its a waste. Bait, lure, lead them to their fall. I have seen many run  from a few. Momentum is a big part of the game. The time to pressure and drive. Once you get a side thinking of just run you have more power to push. You have to balance this with players on your side just saying or yelling run. That doesn't help any tag looking to push. When non-tagged players yell run, they aren't helping their side they are just being drama lamas and second guessing the current tags move and add more chaos to the interaction.

This makes me think you've never tried fighting 10v40. Have you? Would be nice if you can post a before-and-after screenshot of a time when you have 10 players and they have 40, and you somehow kill them.

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Comparatively if you are 1v1, you are toast against anyone who isn't new as well.

Not sure I agree here. sPvP used to be the training ground for WvW. I wouldn't ever assume a new player not to be able to 1v1. I don't agree that they removed this option, but never assume that time in mode equals experience. 

12 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

#1 priority is to get appropriate stats (I imagine most people start with their PvE gear, and therefore are fully glass).

PvE, sPvP and WvW, all players need to match their gear to their build, to their reaction time, be what they expect to face. Most veteran WvW players don't get this right. Not sure I would raise this one.

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Are you seriously suggesting uplevels are safer in a small group?

Interesting read. Are you saying uplevels are safe in any group?

6 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

This makes me think you've never tried fighting 10v40.

lol. I have a number of replies here. I could ask others from the peanut gallery on whether this ever happens. I will save them this bias and hope they laugh with me and say yes I make bad calls on a regular basis. The rule I tell my havoc is better to fight than run since it encourages them to run when you turn and fight since they think more are following. Han Solo attack methods do work. 

Yes, I make bad calls all the time. When jumped 40 v1 that makes me just focus on hunting the 40, while together or than later separate. I never admitted to being mental, but its a game and I do follow the rules of vendetta. 

6 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Have you? Would be nice if you can post a before-and-after screenshot of a time when you have 10 players and they have 40, and you somehow kill them.

If you have ten, then you have a Havoc. A Havoc needs to choice the fight and not be run over. They need to define the engagement and draw what they want in. Zerg busting grows further and further away as boons and anti-boon drift apart so not sure if that is where you are going.