Did the 'Secret's of the Obscure' class features have an impact on your gameplay?

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Now that both the weapon-master and the new weapon proficiency have been out for some time, I'm curious how the players liked them. Three questions, one answer each. You are free to explain your choices, but you are not required to do that.

Disclaimer: This is just a normal poll from a normal user. I do not seek to lecture ANet by the results of this poll, neither do I try to prove anything with it. If you do not like the way I have created it, feel free to make a better poll. If you feel offended by anything, please hit the report-button.

Thanks for your participation and happy easter o/ 🐇

[Dadnir.5038]

The choice of answer on the pol is a bit frustrating as the answers don't really express my opinions.

• My opinion on this new "class developpement" is that the ideas are interesting but the execution was poor.
• Weapon master made e-specs lose a part of their identity and broke balance in many way. Two points that I'm not especially fond of. Did it change much in term of gameplay? No.
• The new weapon proficiency... I think the idea behind the concept was neat but, unfortunately, the result don't really live to my expectations. Did it change much in term of gameplay? No.

[Funky.4861]

I'm not really using any of them, apart from pistols on guard to learn the new quickness rotation. I've tinkered with most of them but they feel a bit gimmicky. E.G did engineer NEED another grenade launcher? I like the mobility on necro swords, but they feel a bit undertuned. I'm aware of the benchmarks but in terms of gameplay i don't think anything has really changed.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On my FB, I consistently use LB and OH sword. I love the additional range and mobility they bring to an otherwise slow, close range player, especially in wvw. Absolutely fantastic. The pistols are fun, but some dizzying choices by the devs seem to hamper MH pistol's range. Still too much reliance on being in melee range to use that kitten symbol while every other pistol skill can be used at 900 range. 😞

I'm also having a lot of fun with a dagger on my mirage. It's a cool changeup to relying on a staxe. I can finally drop my axe and leave it lying in the muck behind me, forgotten! YAY! I tried the rifle, but haven't really played with it yet. It was fun, so I'm looking forward to getting more into it.

Unfortunately, everything about weapon mastery and the new pistol for elementalists have been... not useful, to put it kindly.

Lastly, I actually having fun keeping a staff on my second set with my deadeye. I haven't had much luck with the axe yet. Maybe I'll try a rifle daredevil next? 😄

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Anet is in my opinion simply not able to keep enough diversity in the used weaponsets. Except a few examples every class usually just picks the best power/condi/heal weapons and then slaps it on all especs resulting in the end in less build diversity. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I have no idea what the difference is between question 1 and 2.

But for me, it's only main hand dagger on Zerker. 

Pistol is only usefull BsW. 

Torch isn't even meta anymore on condi zerker. 

Offhand dagger is a weapon that exists. 

[Fueki.4753]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I have no idea what the difference is between question 1 and 2.

I think question one refers to elite specialization weapons being unlocked for the entire profession and question two refers to the newly added batch of SotO-exclusive weapons.

Edited April 1 by Fueki.4753

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think question one refers to elite specialization weapons being unlocked for the entire profession and question two refers to the newly added batch of SotO-exclusive weapons.

I'm dumb. I forgot the new weapons for a moment. 

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

In terms of build-diversity, both improvements are useful.

Engi shortbow is yet another gimmick kit. It is a little overpowered, if used (in)correctly. 

I've given the Guardian pistols a try this morning. Easily managed to peak beyond 18k DPS with a LI 6-button core-build. It is fun to play and does acceptable damage for my standards. I'll keep it ^^. 

The other weapons however are difficult to utilize for me at the moment. I really want a build with Necro swords, but everything I've tried so far is either boring, over-complicated or does not really fit my requirements. Time will tell. But overall, I'm happy with the changes.

[SeTect.5918]

Since my answers to the questions arent listed above:

To question:

1. I use the weaponmaster training frequently, because one e-spec weapon outplays all others now. Example: Power catalyst, warhorn. Condi tempest, warhorn. Condi weaver, warhorn. Power weaver, warhorn. Support ele, warhorn. One offhand weapon for all needs. // it opened some cool options, yes. But it made balancing even more "complicated". Some weapons need to be heavily rebalanced without making them dominant on all e-specs and without making them useless on all e-specs. 

2. Some new weapons feel nice and unique. Others feel kinda terrible (engi shortbow). Overall I'm not like completely disappointed, but also not impressed. I like some new weapons, but I'm more like the condi type of person. Not support and not Power dps. Sure, there were condi weapons, but those we got are on classes I dont really play. Some new power weapons feel kinda nice tho.

3. I like the *idea* of both of them, but here and there, some balancing or weapon skill ideas could have been better (still talking about engi shortbow). I'm a fan of both, while also not being a fan of both. 

 

For weaponmaster training, engi sword should give them an example of good balancing work, where they made sword stronger on its own elite spec while its a bit weaker on other elite specs. That should be made with all weapons so its not that one weapon dominates all e specs. (Look on Snow crows: Power scrapper using hammer and power holo using sword/pistol)

[VocalThought.9835]

I wished they came out with the fourth Elite Specializations and saved the Weapon Master and new proficiencies for a later time. I think having a fourth elites would have allowed everyone, like myself, to finally feel great about knowing they covered all the possibilities of what each profession could do. We know they're classic archetypes that have not been touched and their room with an additional elite to cover that. I think 4 elites should be the max and I am open to adding more weapon proficiencies. 

We missing the Illusionist conjuring illusion other than clones, phantasims, or daggers. 

We're missing rangers transforming into their pets.

We're missing the 5th element Elementalist.

We're missing the Guardian with mystical beast.

These are all do able themes to make... why would they not do them if it not for just not wanting to or trying to create something new or different. 

I bet if they did add a fourth elite specialization, the whole fan base, aside from those that constantly complain about balance or not having a new weapon, would simply love to be able to finally be able to create the class of their dreams. 

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I wished they came out with the fourth Elite Specializations and saved the Weapon Master and new proficiencies for a later time. I think having a fourth elites would have allowed everyone, like myself, to finally feel great about knowing they covered all the possibilities of what each profession could do. We know they're classic archetypes that have not been touched and their room with an additional elite to cover that. I think 4 elites should be the max and I am open to adding more weapon proficiencies. 

We missing the Illusionist conjuring illusion other than clones, phantasims, or daggers. 

We're missing rangers transforming into their pets.

We're missing the 5th element Elementalist.

We're missing the Guardian with mystical beast.

These are all do able themes to make... why would they not do them if it not for just not wanting to or trying to create something new or different. 

I bet if they did add a fourth elite specialization, the whole fan base, aside from those that constantly complain about balance or not having a new weapon, would simply love to be able to finally be able to create the class of their dreams. 

I wish I was even a quarter as optimist as you seem to be...

[Leo G.4501]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:37 PM, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Anet is in my opinion simply not able to keep enough diversity in the used weaponsets. Except a few examples every class usually just picks the best power/condi/heal weapons and then slaps it on all especs resulting in the end in less build diversity. 

Having no dog in this expansion race, I do share this sentiment though.

It's kind of discouraging to see. I understand they wanted strengthen the skeletal outline for structured content but it looks lacking and forced at the same time...like they're specifically designing these weapons not to be cool or to have a theme or power fantasy, but rather trying to fill a meta.  They're just vehicles to give this profession a condi off-hand or that profession a support main-hand. 

I dunno...maybe the devs had higher expectations on what this expansion was going to do but had to cut corners because they were reshuffling other systems. But if they were mainly just reshuffling stuff (masteries, reward tracks, runes/relics, weapon master), shouldn't they have been able to polish more?

[Kanaima.2546]

From my perspective as someone who outside of completionism plays thief almost exclusively:

1. Rarely. Staff on Deadeye is the only combo I find comfortable and fun out of the new options.

2. Never. Technically not true since I did actually try the axe, decided I hated almost everything about it and then finished off the achievement in Urban Battlegrounds, but I'm glad to be done with it.

3. I like both of them. Interestingly enough I like the idea behind both of them and would like to see it expanded on, it's just unfortunate that I personally didn't really get all that much out of this particular round of additions. I've found the recent balance patches have had a much larger impact on the variety of builds I've been playing lately in comparison.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Weapon Master seems like a really poorly thought out idea by someone playing 1-2 classes, probably a Guardian player, spending 5 seconds thinking “wouldn’t it be cool if your Firebrand starts raining arrows or zipping around on dual swords?” while not considering in a vacuum how the balance of other classes work.

The Pistol Scourge fiasco was hilarious for the short time it lasted. Scourge was absolutely not designed with a Torment weapon in mind, but it was gutted anyway due to a stupid idea and I’m pretty sure condi Scourge now can’t live without Pistol. Something similar happened to Ele but on a grander scale. Ele spec weapons are absolutely not designed with each other in mind. That’s why Warhorn, an overpowered weapon balanced only by its limited access, now renders every other off-hand choices obsolete. Also Tempest destroyed Hanmer and now Catalyst can’t even use its own weapon. Other similar cases could be Herald ruining Greatsword for Vindicator. 

Yet after much balance shuffling the numbers around, most especs went back to still using their own weapon/ old build anyway and nothing new really happened, unless their old weapon was nerfed like cases above and there’s nothing for them to go back to. Overall on average Weapon Master did a lot more damage to the game’s balance than the good it brought, if there was anything good at all. So in terms of “impact”, it was a flat negative.

New weapons on the other hand is a fresh welcome due to them each offering something new to each profession, well except Ele Pistol. And probably Engi Shortbow, but I don’t play Engi. But I’d like to emphasize that their success is largely attributed to them offering a new niche for each profession. Ele Pistol shows exactly what would happen if they start adding new weapons that overlap a niche with an existing choice: Instead of balancing the overpowered Pistol, they nerfed Ele along with everything else to keep the shiny new toy. What a wise decision. So even though new weapons are overall a “success”, I’d be wary of the next batch of new weapons that they inevitably will release for potential cases like that.

Edited April 3 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[Yasai.3549]

Weapons Mastery shouldn't be locked behind an expansion. New weapons should have been the highlight of Soto class progression. We should have had more weapons. 

This sort of Class progression while hugely impactful is uninteresting. It's like expecting people go go WOW when you open a glass door. The stuff is ALREADY THERE, all they did was open the door. Honestly looking at future class progression, one can already guess what's gonna happen: Unlocked utilities.

 

I rather they just dropped the whole expansion pretense and tell us straight: We have to buy Living Worlds now, and but they are being supported more frequently compared to older Living Worlds.

 

Edited April 3 by Yasai.3549

[Gwynnion.7364]

Weapon Mastery is largely a non-feature for me outside of, e.g., Elementalist warhorn, which is just superior to the alternatives.  But in some cases, it was a power spec gaining access to a condi weapon or vice versa, which doesn't matter.  It certainly wasn't enough to motivate me to buy SOTO, and I generally preferred weapons being exclusive to their original elite specialization for flavor and because it made balancing them easier.

The new weapons are likewise mostly a miss, especially as they're designed for specific niches like Warrior heal staff or support Chrono rifle.  I'm sure they're okay for those purposes but I don't play them.  I do like some of the new options, such as Guardian pistols or Necromancer swords, and even Elementalist pistol or Thief axe could be fun with tweaks to make them more effective.  But I don't feel like they've dramatically changed how I play the game, and it feels like they were leftover ideas from potential elite specs, which I would rather they have worked on instead.

In general, it feels like both were thrown in to pad SOTO"s feature list and weren't properly thought out beforehand.

[zeyeti.8347]

I'd rather have elites spec , but new weapons add new things , and a whole 9 new e-specs would be rather hard to balance , but without that i am clearly not hyped a lot by new expansions, as the story seems to be blunt and the renewal of gameplay and new features goes thiner and thiner , but that's normal for a mmo who has more than 10 years after all.

[Panda.1967]

1) weapon mastery training does what should have been done in the first place with espec weapons… it has never made sense to lock the weapons to the especs. I understood having them locked behind the especs, but once unlocked they should have just been unlocked like they are now. So many weapon balance issues and poor weapon design choices may have never happened had they done this in the first place.

2) for the most part, the new weapons are alright… some of them could have used some adjustments… and a couple are just awful…

Elementalist Pistol and Thief Axe both honestly should have been offhand weapons, their designs and mechanics wouldn’t have even really needed to change at all either… they just aren’t good designs for standalone mainhand weapons… perfect for offhand though…

Engineer Shortbow is awful… it had a cool concept but the execution both in beta and final release was horrendous. It is a prime example of why we should have been given a second beta weekend to test the changes before they went live.

Revenant Scepter is also aweful, they very clearly did NOT think this weapon through to any degree. The auto attack beam is longer than the attack range, and skills 2 & 3 both do effectively the same thing as eachother, it needs a major overhaul.

Loving Warrior Staff, Necromancer Swords, Ranger Maces, and Guardian Pistols. I honestly don’t understand all the hate on the symbol for guardian pistols, I swear half the people raging about it haven’t actually read how the skill even works. Melee attacks in the symbol inflict burning to up yo 5 targets inside the symbol, projectiles that passthrough (or originate within) the symbol inflict burning to their target. It makes sense for it to be placed at your feet, it makes it versatile. Enemies that get close will burn from all of your attacks, and enemies at a distance will burn from your projectiles (note: pistol 2 is the only non-projectile attack for guardian pistols)… the only issue I take with the symbol is that it isn’t accompanied by any sort of attack.

And that brings us to Mesmer Rifle… my one and only gripe with this weapon is the portal… the skill is completely useless outside of group content and in group content it is still practically useless… a single use one-way portal!!! seriously Anet… you think a single use one-way portal is even remotely useful? Let us detonate the portal to warp ourselves to the portal’s location or something… give us some actually useful functionality to it.

3) I like both additions… I have issues with some of the new weapons, but thats alright… I have issue with various especs and core features/skills too… glares at the uselessness of engineer turrets… anyways… I would have still preferred to have seen a new set of especs in all honesty… weapon master training should have happened regardless, but these new weapons should have been accompanied by a new set of eapecs. Looking at what we got weapon wise I can actually see a few espec possibilities for some of them..

Elementalist: Spellslinger - marrying magic and firearms into a potently deadly combination Spellslingers use bullet skills to rain down destruction on their enemies.

Guardian: Enforcer - Giardians are bastions of justice, but when in lawless lands a Guardian must take it upon themselves to become an Enforcer of justice armed with pistols and doling out Punishments to the unjust.

Warrior: Paragon - Paragons are symbols of leadership and expert tacticians who will go to great lengths to ensure the survival of those who join them in battle. Unlike the paragons of old, many have now adapted spear techniques to staves while under the tyranical rule of Polowa Joko.

etc… so much lost potential…

[Gaiawolf.8261]

7 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

I honestly don’t understand all the hate on the symbol for guardian pistols, I swear half the people raging about it haven’t actually read how the skill even works. Melee attacks in the symbol inflict burning to up yo 5 targets inside the symbol, projectiles that passthrough (or originate within) the symbol inflict burning to their target. It makes sense for it to be placed at your feet, it makes it versatile. Enemies that get close will burn from all of your attacks, and enemies at a distance will burn from your projectiles (note: pistol 2 is the only non-projectile attack for guardian pistols)… the only issue I take with the symbol is that it isn’t accompanied by any sort of attack.

The hate for the guardian pistol symbol came from being so much better in melee than at range, despite it being on a 900 range weapon. Sure you could pop off Hail of Justice at range for an extra 5s of burning from Ignition plus maybe a few extra from Through the Heart shots before the symbol expires, or you could lay down Purging Flames, Peacekeeper, and/or Whirling Light in melee range while Rushing Justice and Ignition are active for 16s worth of extra burning from Ignition all in 4s. Which would you choose?

And of course that meant it's balanced off using it in melee range, so the ranged damage was pitiful.

To follow your own sentiments, "so much lost potential..."

Edit: Oh and yes, the symbol is accompanied by an attack. It pulses 5 times dealing its own strike damage, so even more melee only damage.

Edited April 5 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Shagie.7612]

yeah it gave herald and vindi access to the only appealing feature renegade had and then gave them the pierce effect on top of that for free (meanwhile nobody else gets the shield cleanse trait but herald even though it's just as necessary to make it feel good and playable)
removing any reason you'd ever care to play renegade in pvp even as a niche choice lol

weapon master training was a mistake and condi reaper getting access to pistol and torch for two extra CCs it was never built around is all the proof anyone should need

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

weapon master training was a mistake and condi reaper getting access to pistol and torch for two extra CCs it was never built around is all the proof anyone should need

And people told them years earlier, that'd be a bad thing for the game.

I often used Necromancer Pistol + Torch as an example, why it's bad.

[Shagie.7612]

46 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And people told them years earlier, that'd be a bad thing for the game.

I often used Necromancer Pistol + Torch as an example, why it's bad.

I don't think it was impossible to do, it just would have needed to drop with an entire redo on the power budgets and tuning of every weapon's skills and elite spec.
Which was never happening would have been an incredibly large undertaking for what are now smaller expansions.

Instead, we got things like necro pistol giving them better damage than they had before, AND a CC on it, while others got.. zerker torch? For a class that only HAS one existing condition build, that being the one torch already belonged to?
Extremely frustrating.

[XSevSpreeX.2143]

5 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Instead, we got things like necro pistol giving them better damage than they had before, AND a CC on it, while others got.. zerker torch? For a class that only HAS one existing condition build, that being the one torch already belonged to?
 

And OH pistol! Which causes explosions that are only used for... one... build.

[Shagie.7612]

12 hours ago, XSevSpreeX.2143 said:

And OH pistol! Which causes explosions that are only used for... one... build.

I don't think it's quite as comparable, because in the end it's still a power weapon and you can play power across the other elites/core. If it was better than axe they'd use it. Off-hand dagger's in the same situation as well.
But Zerk as an elite spec is what allows Warriors to play a functional condi build. Warrior has one singular utility that deals conditions outside of Berserker, that being banner of discipline (which only got the bleed added like a year and a half ago during the banner rework, it had none prior to that), a 30s CD for 3 stacks of bleed.

Even more funny is that sword is better at the moment anyways, so it's not even a useful weapon for its own elite spec right now either, but that's a tuning issue rather than a weapon master problem.

But yes, the explosion feature is only utilized by Bladesworn.
I find it weird that we got mechanics that are self-contained within weapons with the most recent ones, like thief axe, ranger maces, or ele pistol, but something like the explosion mechanic of warrior pistol only holds meaning for one elite. They could have done something for it similar to ranger hammer or holo sword, where it's slightly different for non-Bladesworn.